Changing/switching units

[Guest Live-Slow-Fly-Fast]

Hello,

Could someone please shed some light on the process of transfering ANG units. If you are sponsored by a unit but haven't attended UPT yet can you transfer units? Would you do this before UPT, while there, or after UPT? Can you transfer from the ANG to the AFR, or visa versa? I'm not in this situation but was wondering what logistics are involved.

Thank you

[Scooter14]

Here's the deal...

Typically, a Guard unit is going to hire you because they need a pilot, but it's not like Active Duty. Since people in ANG units typically do not move around, they are looking for someone who will be there for the long haul. When you interview, you will find this out. You'll get questions like "why do you want to fly here? what interests you about our unit?" Unless they are so short manned that they will hire ANYBODY, they try to hire those who will be beneficial to the guard "family." Some of the guys in my unit have been around for 30+ years.

For me, there is no active duty flying opportunities in the region I grew up in and want to live (New England), which is why I got out of AD. I found a mission I enjoy, a region I want to live, and a unit willing to hire me and send me to UPT, so I can't really ask for a whole lot more. I would hate to have gotten denied the slot, so someone could come in and take it and then work a transfer midway through UPT to go fly for another unit.

So, forgive me for being presumptuous, but if you are thinking about trying to get on with a unit and then use them as a stepping stone to get to another location, you won't win friends and influence people in the reserve components.

If you have a more noble intention in mind, then you would need to talk to the unit directly, but I don't think a unit's gonna use their slot to hire a guy who's going to go somewhere else.

Check out AirGuardian's post under to apply...or to wait, that is the question

PAB

[ 26 November 2003, 18:45: Message edited by: PAB ]

[Guest Live-Slow-Fly-Fast]

Thank you for responding PAB. My intentions are strictly noble, but I see how my question could be percieved otherwise. Basically, I'm wondering what happens if you must move to another part of the country (eg. family member has a terminal illness, or you must transfer for your job). I will be very dedicated to my unit, but I am wondering what happens if circumstances beyond my control warrent a transfer. Any other input would be appreciated.

[Scooter14]

Fair enough, this is an excellent example of why you might need to transfer your slot.

PAB, Open mouth, insert keyboard

You unit would be more than willing to work with you if something like this arose. Typically, a unit likes you to live within a certain radius of the base. However, there are folks in my unit that live considerably farther away than the typical 150-200 mi radius. For airline pilots, it's easy, they jumpseat in. Others do 2 drills a month (as opposed to 1 weekend) and stay longer. Some drive in and spend a week or two on some of the different types of orders they can put you on, so it's not optimal, but still very possible to be with a unit and live quite a ways away. Will you get the hours that the guy who lives across town gets? No, but it can still work.

If you still need to transfer, that can be done as well.

[Guest NateERAU]

Hello,

I have a question about switching units. Lets say for example, you are enlisted in Unit "A", and then you start to apply for UPT with a bunch of other units. Finally unit "Z" chooses you for UPT. How hard is it to leave unit "A" as an enlisted person to go an fly with unit "Z"? I am planning on joining the Guard as a crew chief, and was just wondering if it was difficult to leave the crew chief job for a Pilot slot in a different unit. Thanks

Nate

[hindsight2020]

Sorry long post,

I think the answer is because if you accept a commission as an officer in the unit (a non-pilot officer position that is) that's it for you, since pilot is an officer position itself. If you're enlisted you can "upgrade" so to speak. I may be wayyy off but I think that's the reason a bunch of people who have no business or incentive joining as enlisted do so even with a degree under their belts! (which automatically enables you to apply for an officer spot). Folks feel free to correct my info on that one since I do not know that for sure...what I've perceived from the numbers of people for sure is that there is a non-incentive in becoming a non-flying officer and then seeking the slot as opposed to be enlisted and seeking the slot...I just don't know the exact reason :D

I believe the reason Nate is wanting to enlist is because he's painfully aware, just like the rest of us ANG pilot wannabe's, that to get a pilot slot in the Guard you gotta be connected,um connected or..er,um... connected. If your dad is not the commander, or you don't know the governor of your state, or the adjuntant general for the Guard of your state for that matter, then being a crew chief is as close to being connected as it gets. For the purposes of full disclosure I got ONE interview (as an out-of state non prior...aka fu***d) and it went great, the guys loved me and it came down to 'well if you were a little older, and were from the unit we would give ya the job right now). They may pull some force for me in the recommendation and I may have good news in a month but I'm not sleeping on it, I'm 98% confident I won't get the job, 1% confident I MAY get a 4th alternate or something and 1% confident I'll be the 1% that gets an UPT slot as out-of-state non prior civilian ...and I understand their reasons.

Personally I would never enlist with a degree and a pilot's license under my belt but I'm aware of the incentives and why people do it and take no bitter feel when they give it to the crew guy over a dispossesed outsider like myself since it is righteously yours putting in your time (I'm just bitter about not being advantaged and everybody deciding to become Johnny Maverick at the same freggin time )

Bear in mind being a crew chief still doesn't guarantee you being picked up by the unit so you gotta be careful what you wish for...real nice to get deployed to the sandbox between college semesters and get passed down a couple of years and then coming to the end of your enlistment and still jack for a pilot slot and having to think about re-enlisting.

That's my .02 pesos, happy flying folks :cool:

P.S. sorry about the jacked intel on the first paragraph I have no factual proof of the reasons only hearsay.

[Guest Wxpunk]

Connected -

I think the answer is because if you accept a commission as an officer in the unit (a non-pilot officer position that is) that's it for you, since pilot is an officer position itself.

That’s not true. A current officer has an excellent chance at a pilot slot, provided he is qualified and hasn't served more than five years commissioned service. Think about it, you know they won't have a problem making it through AMS/OTS or being a good officer, because they've already done it.

Also, Connected, it sounds like you are extremely bitter and very pessimistic about this whole pilot slot thing. A probing board can easily pick up on those traits. Maybe you should re-evaluate what’s important to you and make the appropriate adjustments. Don't take offense, this is only constructive criticism.

Good Luck!

-------------------

Wxpunk

[hindsight2020]

WX,

Thanks for the correction on the intel! I knew there was a catch with the officer issue (5 year service time) :D

As for the other issue, it may surprise you but content and demeanor are not necessarily inter-related. Venting is great therapy, I do it here not anywhere near an interview board :cool:

Besides a lot more folks in here feel the same way, they're just afraid of being called up on it...I'm not.... as long as you're not in my interview board haha

'the puppet master' :cool:

[Guest Reallyconfused]

Hey you all. I am currently a guard guy in UPT, and looking to transfer units during UPT to another heavy unit...in the south. Does anyone know if this is possible, or if it is a bad thing to do? I really want to go south, but I dont wanna burn anyone. There are multiple reasons for this.

I did try to search, before posting this.

Thanks!

[Guest AirGuardian]

Guard units for the most part preach loyalty, but if your reasons are for the best and it was not a pre-meditated maneveur than I have seen transfers go rather smoothly. You know, God forbid a family member is sick and you need to be closer to them and support the income as best you can = makes sense. We are rather helpful in that case. Those who sign up at any unit and attempt the transition at the end for the sole purpose of getting a better deal - not so liked and have seen them hunt for months upon months for another unit willing to take them. Just becareful, Guard units talk and when I'm on the board I will always call back to the originating unit for further answers or recommendations. Just a safety check for most units. Overall, it is clearly a plausible venture to find another unit depending on the circumstances. Guard unit's don't make great stones just to step on though. I'm not lecturing, just letting you know anything is possible. Sometimes great outcomes, sometime bad ones - price is heavy if it's a bad one... Maybe the other unit you would like to be at has someone who would rather be at your unit. Trades are done here and there as well for family issues and whatnot! All sorts of possibilities - just CYA as always, sounds blunt - but I'm straight to the point! Goodluck!

[Bergman]

I am sure it can be done. A couple of thoughts:

1) I would get hired by your "new" unit before telling your current unit what you are up to. Don't put it past some folks to torpedo you with another unit out of spite.

2) Where are you going to find the time, during UPT, to find/interview with another ANG unit? Perhaps you will get lucky and just call an OG/CC and be hired, but more than likely they will want you to interview in person (although many units do phone interviews as well). Of course, if your "new" unit is in your hometown and/or state they might bend the rules for you.

3) Many ANG units will be wary of you trying to switch before giving your current unit any return on their investment. It doesn't give a sense of loyalty to a unit if you're trying to switch mid-UPT.

4) You had better be doing well in UPT to even consider this (unless you're in -38s looking for a heavy unit, i.e. you aren't doing well enough to fly fighters but still want your wings). If you're not doing well in T-37s or T-1s, your best bet will be with your current unit. No other unit will want to inherit someone else's problem child. I hope this isn't your case, but if it is...something to think about.

[Guest Reallyconfused]

Im top of my t-1 class in UPT, so performance is no issue. I appreciate the input.

[Spartacus]

Just a question for AirGuardian...

Something that you said in your post made me think. In the Guard if you have a sick family member or whatever you said that they will work with you and help you to get closer to what's happening. What about if you're on AD and say a family member were to get really sick with cancer or whatever? I know this is a weird question, but I never really thought about it until you wrote that stuff.

Will the AF just give you the bird and say, "oh well, *hit happens" or will they try to work with you so that you can be close to that person?

[C17Driver]

JJ, I'm not AG, but might be able to help answer your question. Yes, the AF will try to help (accomdate) while on AD. I believe it's called a Humanitarian Assignment (or something like that) Basically, if they can match your AFSC and base close to the requested location, AFPC will usually try to work it. One of my good buddies was able to work an assignment like that out of UPT (although he did help the situation by doing really well at UPT).

I also know another guy that was able to get his assignment changed after graduating UPT because his baby was sick and he needed to be in a city that offered specialized care. The base he was orginally assigned too wasn't located in a city with the care available.

[ 01. January 2005, 23:44: Message edited by: C17Driver ]

[Guest AirGuardian]

I concur with C17Driver,

And it is the Humanitarian/Family in need circumstances that are very closely scrutinized and heartfelt for Active Duty personnel. It's a good deal!

[Guest Stearmann4]

A friend of mine was an AD A-10 in AK. His father came terminally ill, (we were in OEF), and within 2 months, the AF apporved his xfer to the MA ANG (where his father was), and established him in an AGR slot to boot! You'd be hardpressed to find that kind of compassion eslewhere in the military. At least I haven't seen it in 15 years.

[Spartacus]

All,

Sorry to kinda change the topic but thanks for answering that question! Those were some really good responses!

I guess why I got to thinking about this is because I am unmarried and am an only child. My mother has heart problems and my father just had a CT scan and they found a lot of build-up on his brain that causes strokes. Seeing as how I will be going AD in a while I have worried about this a little. Family is important and I just would hate to be in azerbajain or some place and find out that one of my family members only has 6 months to live. Then it would suck if the AF would say... "Well, when the person dies we'll give you 3 days for the funeral." That would really suck!

[Bergman]

Here's my situation:

I have interviewed for, and been offered, an AGR Title 10 job working for NGB in the state where I currently live and am a resident, which is not the state I currently belong to for my part-time ANG duties.

The "hire letter" has been forwarded to my current Wing/CC for his approval or disapproval. Based on a conversation with my OG/CC today, there is a very good chance that my request to transfer will be denied (due to needing pilots for ORI in Jan 07). I will not find out if I am released until Friday.

My question is: what are my options, should my Wg/CC decide to not release me? I have read through ANGI 36-2101, "Assignments within the ANG" and found this:

3.2. Reassignments to Another Component:

3.2.1. Release of a member to another component or another state will be authorized only with concurrence

of the appropriate gaining and losing commander/AG. Requests should not be automatically

approved, but be evaluated on an individual basis with judgment made on the merits of each situation.

which basically proves that the AG (or in effect, the Wing/CC) has the authority to deny my transfer but doesn't give any guidance on what to do if that happens.

What are my options now? If the answer is "NO" is there a "next level" to elevate this to? If so, how do I go about it? My (hopefully) gaining commander is going to make a call on my behalf. Other than that, I am out of ideas.

As this AGR position will affect my livelihood (a decent raise from my civvie job), provide medical benefits for my family, my retirement, and my life in general, I am quite concerned and looking for fresh options.

[ 26. April 2005, 21:09: Message edited by: Bergman ]

[Guest dumaisj]

Dude, they're gonna slam you now for an ORI nearly two years in the future? That ****in' sucks...we'll keep our fingers crossed for you.

[Guest SnakeT38]

Why can't you workout a deal and remain "attached" for flying purposes until

the ORI is over? However, on the surface

I think this OG may be leaning a little forward

based on your side of the story.

I "blew up bridges" big time to "get out" of the

ANG and go back to fly but I was "close to the end".

Best approach may be to have "new" CC see if he can work a deal with the "old" CC.

[Guest AirGuardian]

When you say NGB, do you mean the National Guard Bureau in VA, HQ to us all? Or, the National Guard HQ in reference to normal State HQ. Definitely work out an "attached" situation from the NGB is a doable venture having been in the D.C. area and it is normal... But, most don't fly with their home unit since it's actually not allowed, but you can fly with other units.

As far as flying with another state while working in a different state at the HQ level, that's another handshake deal that is unique. Snake definitely has the best take on that one with the inter-state issue going on. Best of luck!

[Bergman]

Originally posted by AirGuardian:

When you say NGB, do you mean the National Guard Bureau in VA, HQ to us all? Or, the National Guard HQ in reference to normal State HQ. Definitely work out an "attached" situation from the NGB is a doable venture having been in the D.C. area and it is normal... But, most don't fly with their home unit since it's actually not allowed, but you can fly with other units.

As far as flying with another state while working in a different state at the HQ level, that's another handshake deal that is unique. Snake definitely has the best take on that one with the inter-state issue going on. Best of luck!

The AGR job is working for "the" NGB. An inter-fly agreement is something I had planned on working out once I had started the new job, but until I am released there is no reason to worry about it.

I spoke with my OG about 3 weeks ago and, in the same conversation, he used the phrases "We can't let you go because we're undermanned" and then "We're intentionally not filling 7 to 9 pilot slots due to lack of sorties and ability to keep everyone current." Ugh.

Back to my original question...do I have any other options if/when the Wg/CC says "NO"??? I will be working throughout the week with my (hopefully) gaining O-5 and O-6, but don't know how much good that will do.

I spent a while last night surfing my senator's and house rep's web sites. All 3 of them have a 'Are you having problems with a federal agency?' area where you can request intervention on their part. How drastic is this? I have heard of folks going the congressional route in the past and it usually isn't very well received (by the ANG unit - but it's effective as h*ll!) Their refusal to let me transfer has now gone beyond a minor inconvenience to me (commuting) and is now affecting my FAMILY, which gets papa bear angly pretty quick.

[Guest AirGuardian]

If it's your priority, go ahead and do the congressional inquiry. I did one many, many moons ago over an AFPC issue about transferring possibilities into another AFSC... It worked needless to say and the HIGH AND MIGHTY AF buckled within 24 hours of Senator/Congressman approval for the inquiry and wasted no more of my time or my constituents!!! It's more powerful than I ever thought, but I might have had my name highlighted by the flesh peddlers for future job opps. Doesn't matter now, can't touch this Reg AF dodger, stogie smoking, tobacco chewing didn't need me anyway Prisoner #69 - I say it fully joking of course, or am I. I luv my AD brothers/sistas, especially when we do the good missions - that won't last long for sure!!! I'll get mine in the end...

AGR is AGR and puts more food on the plate and solidifies your future on a more regular basis. Just make sure you might not have any intentions of returning to the unit... It's a bridge that may need to be burned, weigh your options bud!

[ 27. April 2005, 23:08: Message edited by: AirGuardian ]

[Guest Rainman A-10]

This doesn't make much sense to me. Let me see if I can give you some of the perspective your commanders might have (even though I really don't have much info here).

We have guys that work at Andrews and JP-1 that fly with us. Why do you have to stop flying?

I will say this, you signed with the unit. There really is such a thing as a Guard committment. The committment goes both ways, them to you and you to them. You expected them to hold up their end, right? The commanders can hold you to what you said you were going to do.

You say you don't understand why the OG and Wg commanders would be concerned about bodies so far out from an ORI. It is their job to be concerned about the two year horizon. The squadron CC worries about the near term. It may not make sense to you but it is quite possible that it makes sense to leave some slots unfilled to manage the currencies and still be short pilots.

Have you talked this over with your flight and squadron commanders? I think you might have done yourself some justice if folks had known what the hell you were doing before you actually did it. No one likes to hear about something like this after all the chips have fallen, especially a commander.

I know that I have actively helped guys get jobs AND tried to keep them on the letter of Xs because that was what was good for them and the unit. In fact, I've got a guy on temp AGR status at Andrews (he's been there for over a year) trying to get a permanent job down there right now. I don't want to lose him completely, he's a kick ass pilot, so I'm doing whatever I can to help him out. I know he may tell me someday that it is too hard to do everything (they are expecting their first kid in 7 months) and I'm going to do my best to hook him up. Every commander in his chain has written letters and made calls on his behalf to help him get a job with the bureau. He'll be bummed to hear that you got a job without even telling anyone in your unit.

BL, I would stay away from the congressional investigation crap. You made a promise to the unit. You are trying to bail on that promise and you didn't even give them a reach around. they are trying to hold you to your word. I wouldn't exactly say you fall into the "victim" of a cruel and evil overseer. Talk to the people in your chain and explain everything like you have explained it here. Be willing to give a little back to the unit and I bet this works itself out.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

I will say this, you signed with the unit. There really is such a thing as a Guard committment. The committment goes both ways, them to you and you to them. You expected them to hold up their end, right? The commanders can hold you to what you said you were going to do.

Yes, I did sign with the unit...but my overall committment is to "The Air National Guard of the United States", or so says my contract. NOTHING was ever said during the hiring process about how long I would spend at the unit nor were any 'exit criteria' ever specified. It's been 4 years since I was hired...the world, and my life, have changed considerably since then. I would expect the unit to realize that, and have tried at length to explain this to them.

You say you don't understand why the OG and Wg commanders would be concerned about bodies so far out from an ORI. It is their job to be concerned about the two year horizon. The squadron CC worries about the near term. It may not make sense to you but it is quite possible that it makes sense to leave some slots unfilled to manage the currencies and still be short pilots.

I DO understand why they are concerned so far out. I just find it hard to believe that ONE person would be the lynch pin for the whole ORI! By saying things like "You can't leave until afte the ORI" they are essentially saying that the unit is a one-way door...you can get in, but we're not releasing anyone. Or, are they going to turn me down for an AGR position today yet release someone else in two months? That doesn't seem very fair. It'll be great on morale though.

Have you talked this over with your flight and squadron commanders? I think you might have done yourself some justice if folks had known what the hell you were doing before you actually did it. No one likes to hear about something like this after all the chips have fallen, especially a commander.

I was in the unit 2+ years before I ever met my Sq/CC (he's an AA captain and part-timer as well) and I couldn't even tell you who my Flt/CC is...disorganization is the rule at my unit. Having said that, I have talked with the OG/CC, OSF/CC, and OG/CV about this REPEATEDLY over the last 4 months. Prior to my applying for the AGR job, I was told by the OG/CC "We'll see what we can do about getting you transferred...or maybe just work an inter-fly agreement. There is no use putting someone through pain just for pain's sake!" Based on that conversation, I applied for the job. Several months later, after I had already applied, his tune changed to "We'll let you go in 2 more years."

BL, I would stay away from the congressional investigation crap. You made a promise to the unit. You are trying to bail on that promise and you didn't even give them a reach around. they are trying to hold you to your word. I wouldn't exactly say you fall into the "victim" of a cruel and evil overseer. Talk to the people in your chain and explain everything like you have explained it here. Be willing to give a little back to the unit and I bet this works itself out.

I don't disagree...I made a promise to them. For my part, I have always represented the unit well, from OEF/ONE tours at JP-1 to SOS to UPT to KC-135 school to ADSW tours. I have performed at a superior level in EVERY assignment I have had with this unit. I have lived up to my end of the bargain. Their end of the bargain was to fly me as a part-timer. I came back from UPT/CIQ and waited 9 months for difference training in my unit's jets. I have commuted up there many times for 5-8 days, only to fly 1 or 2 sorties. I will roam the halls of the squadron asking every office "Is there anything I can help with?" and am told "no" so I am stuck surfing the internet and sitting on my ass. Some will argue that is a good deal; I disagree. I am a professional Officer and pilot. Utilize my talents. Use me as a resource. You would think that with an ASEV coming up, they'd ask the guy with 4 years of AD Stan/Eval experience, 2 SAVs, and 2 ORIs under his belt for some help - even if it's just filing paperwork or checking folders. Nope. It is SOOO frustrating to commute and then not do a f*cking thing for a week! So, my opinion is that if they're not going to challenge me or even attempt to use my talents or experience, I will go somewhere that will. In this case, it's a very "win" situation for me...a challenging job with full-time AGR benefits. BTW, while I am looking out for me and my family primarily, I think the AF & ANG will benefit as well...is it better to have someone sitting on his ass, not living up to their potential, or out there doing something positive for the ANG? The AGR hiring board made their choice...I was selected ahead of 20 other applicants.

I know the obvious conclusion here is that it's my attitude and/or I'm just an as*hole. I disagree (of course) - if you were to talk with folks I have worked with in the past, I think you will find that I am well liked and a good Officer (PAB and ChuckFlys17s back me up on this one! ). I have flown with 2 other units, and both have offered to hire me after knowing me for 2 weeks each. I really don't think I'm the problem. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

To follow up on my original post, and FYI to the peanut gallery out there... I have made many phone calls in the last few days and learned that I do NOT have any options; the Wg/CC CAN disapprove my transfer and if he does, I am S.O.L. My OG/CC has all the information, and more, I have presented here for the world to read. We'll see what the decision is tomorrow.

If the answer is "no", it appears that my only option would be to get my congressional reps involved. Historically, this seems to be very effective but not very well received by the unit, as they don't like that kind of heat. Don't know if I'm prepared to go the distance on that one. But this is my family, career, and retirement we're talking about here...so we'll see.