A tactful Instructor Pilot change?

[Guest guardhopefull]

I wanted to post this question to see what everyone’s opinion was on requesting a change of an IP. Being in the middle of UPT and talking to fellow classmates everyone is of the opinion that it is totally highlighting yourself if you ask for a change of instructor and that you will hose yourself if you do it. However I was always given the advice by my unit that if I felt I was not learning or just flat out felt I had a personality clash to go ahead and request it. Of course I realize you can’t just go ask for a new IP everytime you get ripped apart for doing something you did that was stupid or just cause the guy is not as "laid back" as another IP. And I do believe that its good to see other techniques and have different perspectives as it can help improve your own flying. And I also realize that in the "real world" you cant always pick who you are going to fly with so you have to just "get over it" to some extent. So of course I’m curious as to what is the deciding factor for you or what you have heard from others? I would not want to highlight myself but at the same time if an instructor is trying to make me change some critical things a few days before my checkride and all the sudden I start screwing up stuff (stuff I've never screwed up before cause I feel uncomfortable/unsure of my flying) is that something that I’m doing wrong or should I look at a change?

[Guest KoolKat]

Personally, I've had these thoughts/feelings before.

It seems like you already have a good perspective of how to handle it, right up until the end of the post with your question...

"I would not want to highlight myself but at the same time if an instructor is trying to make me change some critical things a few days before my checkride and all the sudden I start screwing up stuff (stuff I've never screwed up before cause I feel uncomfortable/unsure of my flying) is that something that I’m doing wrong or should I look at a change?"

This really should not happen, as long as what is being changed is technique and not a procedural correction. remember, the ride a few days before your check is still instructional, and that maybe what he is trying to do. His technique MAY make you better.

If it's technique, then the best way to accomplish your goal is to satisfy this IP and use your proven technique on the check.

You shouldn't have to do something differently, just because it's "his way" the ride before your check, that's crap.

A "few days" though, just appease him and F'in' move on and do it the way it works for you.

BL, if your right , your right, regardless of techniques.

[Guest guardhopefull]

Originally posted by Bender:

This really should not happen, as long as what is being changed is technique and not a procedural correction. remember, the ride a few days before your check is still instructional, and that maybe what he is trying to do. His technique MAY make you better.

I guess that was part of the problem was that some of the changes he wanted to see were procedural change, things Iv always done with other IP's and they have never commented on the way I was doing it. And they were not major changes but enough to make me unsure of what was being asked while flying. It really seems that there are a decent amount of "procedures" that are not clearly/fully explained by the pubs we get and left up to IP technique so the "uncertainty" in me comes up when getting "corrected" in flight. It all starts to snowball and the next thing you know you did not get a gear confirmation call cause it would have meant interrupting him while talking during that specific phase of flight. Of course I can’t hit the pause button while he finishes what he is saying. And what if I’m totally confused at what he is asking me to do because my other IP’s did portions of this procedure differently? I guess I feel confused at how I’m supposed to handle situations like that. Some studs just say talk over the guy for a critical call out or key up the mic and make that radio call if you know you’re about to miss it. This problem has never happened in the past so it’s confusing. I actually did learn some great techniques that will expediate my checkride so all was not lost but overall the mission like felt a big failure on my part.

Of course I’m not about to tell the IP to "shut up" so I can make my gear calls or whatever is pending. But anyways those were some of the specific issues and because there are so few flights before the checkride I sit here and wonder "well how the heck do I perform these thing satisfactorily?" Overall I just felt like I knew how I was supposed to perform with minor tweaking then all the sudden I’m doing a 180 change, (or maybe a 90 is more like it). Was some if it my own poor performance? You bet! It was just a bad couple of days, everyone has em. And any new IP is going to bring some uncertainty but most of it seemed to "go away" when I was switched back to the other IP’s I was working with. All part of the fun of UPT right? Adapt and get through it. I’m sure I’m not going through anything that no one else has experienced so the opinions on how to handle it help. Thanks for the input.

[ 05. August 2005, 21:01: Message edited by: guard/reserve hopefull ]

[Flare]

As a current flight scheduler, I feel well-qualified to answer this question. In fact, I actually had to deal with this issue last night, again.

If you don't jive with a certain IP, tell your scheduler or flight commander. At least in all the flights I have been in, nobody has ever had a problem with making the change, and the student isn't looked at any differently because of his/her request. If it happens twice.......well, its still a toss-up. 3rd time? It ain't gonna happen, and the problem isnt with the IPs.... its you!

If the problem is that the IP is talking too much, professionally/tactfully, tell the IP. When I was a student, my best bud was flying with an IP in the formation. After the first set of wingwork, which he wasn't performing too well on that day, he was being overloaded byt talking from the IP. He finally said "Sir, please, I can't concentrate!" The IP then went cold mic for the rest of the sortie, and he proceeded to fly a very nice sortie from then on.

[Ram]

I agree with ENJJPT IP: Any IP worth his salt will be receptive to some tactful, respectful feedback. I'd go this route first before you get drastic and ask not to fly with him/her any longer.

[Guest SnakeT38]

I think I would first ASK YOU.........what exactly is the problem? I changed my T-38 IP in UPT due to gross personality differences between us.When I was a T-38 IP and held different levels of command w/i the squadron I saw MANY IP changes.

I never heard or saw any repurcussions.

I think ENJJPT IP is pretty close to "how it is".

Even AA has a "do not pair with" list for FO's to use when they do their monthly bids so that they are not paired with a prick for an entire month.

Reserve guys I don't think "get a choice".

Bottom line is you are there to learn, however,

"changing IP's" IS NOT an ACE in the HOLE to be used on a frequent basis. I would SUGGEST, pulling the IP aside and discussing your issues with him and see how he handles it.

[Hacker]

As a Flight Commander, my advice is to just use plain english and tell your Flt/CC that you want to not fly with that IP.

[Guest kirkhac]

Wow, these wern't at all the opinions that I expected to read here. I guess my flight was a little different because there was no way any of us would ask for an IP change. Myself and a few guys actually had a problem with a certain IP (the most unprofessional guy I've ever met) but we were all conditioned for no quibbiling. Before I read the other posts I was going to tell you to just keep your mouth shut and tough it out. Hacker and ENJJPT IP have good ideas if you're in a position where that communication is possible. Good luck.

[Toro]

Concur with ENJJPT and Hacker.

Regards to some specifics - key the mic and talk over the dude if he's blabbing will you're trying to make radio calls.

I try to minimize my instruction during task saturating portions of flight like the VFR pattern, but I will tell a guy in the crew coordination brief that if I'm talking to much to tell me to be quiet. Unless the dude is a pr!ck, he shouldn't be offended be you telling him the same.

Back to your original question - as a former T-38 IP and a current F-15 IP, I can tell you that as long as you have a concrete reason for wanting to not fly with this guy. It sounds like your problem is something you may be able to present to the IP. Again, if a student had come to me and presented the problem, I wouldn't be offended. We would sit down and review what he had been taught, what was procedure (things he would have to do) and what was technique (things he could choose to do if he wanted). If, as Snake mentioned, it was a personality problem, I would bypass the IP and go to your flight commander.

What sucks is that now - and for the rest of your career - you're going to get more 'techniques' than you care for and it's a matter of determing which ones work for you and learning how to nod when an IP tells you that his technique is better...then continue using your own.

[Flare]

Originally posted by Toro:

....it's a matter of determing which ones work for you and learning how to nod when an IP tells you that his technique is better...then continue using your own.

Shack on another way of dealing with this issue.

[Guest ledbyexample]

I was in a similar situation and I would say if it effects your flying, you should ask for the change. Even though the benefit might not be immediate. I've seen studs speak up and others remain quiet. The first group does better.

I had a personality conflict with an IP. When I asked to be taken off the IP's continuity, I was told that there are limits to the flexibility of the schedule and flying together might be unavoidable. I flew with the same IP a couple of more times and hooked both.

In a later block we were paired again and I again asked to be taken off (same scheduling has limits speech). I continued to fly with the IP until I was told I had hooked so many rides with that IP that couldn't fly with him anymore in that block. We flew again first ride of the next block.

I got through in the end. However, of the other people who had problems, those who asked to make changes faired better. Some were denied, they wound up going through CRBs. One of the reasons they made it through the CRBs and were put back into the program is that they had made multiple requests to not fly with a specific IP in the few flights before checking and were denied.

A student who did NOT speak up tried to solve the problem in the jet. The IP deemed the feedback "unprofessional conduct" O-4 beats 0-1 every time. Lots of other students had problems with the IP but since no one had spoken up, the stud went on Mil CAP.

It can get pretty heated in the plane especially when your helmet's on fire. Don't take unneccessary risks before you even get to the jet. Remember, the mission of UPT is to train YOU.

You definitely don't want to hear your boss tell you "Well, if you had said something earlier maybe we could have done something to avoid this."

BTW, DON'T feel like the time to bring it up is on the end of course critique. They are high visibility; they can and will be used against you.

Good Luck,

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Not all IPs are equal. Neither are all students. Just remember, you are there to learn and you should not give the IP the kind of power that will allow him to effect your flying. You are not flying to please the IP, you are flying to learn something new and/or practice something you've already learned. The IP is only there to supervise or demonstrate. The only reason they put fuel/bombs/bullets in the jet was because you needed to fly it and learn/practice. They did not do anything so the IP could fly. Know your sh!t and fly the jet, nothing else matters.

I have always ended up flying with the IPs no one else wanted to fly with. I didn't want to fly with them either. I guess the difference for me was that I always ignored the IP except when he was demonstrating something to me. I learned early that there was a gigantic difference between techniques and procedure. If it is technique, I can evaluate it for myself and use it if I want. If it is procedure, there is one and only one way to do it. I memorized procedures and "noted" IP techniques and ignored everything else. I mean, no shit, I ignored the IPs. If they asked me a question that was unrelated to the sortie or what I was doing right then, I didn't even answer. I prepared for every sortie like the IP wasn't going to be there and I flew like I alone was responsible for the jet from preflight to back in the chocks. I have a knack for ignoring things that are not important in flight so crappy IPs don't bother me. If you are flying your ass off there is really nothing they can say except to offer techniques.

It might not work for you right now but you can develop these skills as you advance through your flying career and use them to your advantage. I volunteered to fly with the worlds biggest asshole when I was a weapons school student. None of the students wanted to fly with him and he was a problem for the scheduler. I negotiated a deal with the scheduler...I would fly with the guy as long as I was 3v1 on all my 4-ship rides. We had a five man class and I didn't want to be #3 in another student's 4-ship and I didn't want another student as #3 in my 4-ships. I didn't want someone else's input on my flight and I didn't want to tube a ride because the lead student screwed up and I didn't have the magic bullet three word radio call as #3 to save to sortie. It wasn't like I didn't like my classmates, they were great. I just wanted to pass or fail on my own and I really wanted to lead every ride. My classmates thought it was great because they didn't have to fly with the "hammer" (and it made them nervous when I was down at binions at 0230 the night prior and they didn't know what the plan was for tomorrow's sortie that they may end up leading when I broke in the arming area...even though I always invited them to join me in my "mission planning" which would always include a few lap dances if I won money) and the scheduler said "No problem, thanks".

The IP no one wanted to fly with rarely bugged me and I ignored him when he did (including full-up AUTO-NOD when appropriate). The so-called hammer/crappy IP never hooked me, the scheduler was happy, none of my classmates ever had to suffer through my "double down" mission planning sessions and I got to lead. Win-win-win.

Attitude, it's all in the attitude.

[Guest Dirt Beater]

Getting ready to start Phase I here in less than 3 weeks, that was one of the most insightful posts I have ever read. Thanks Rain.

[ 07. August 2005, 14:06: Message edited by: NSFW ]

[Guest KoolKat]

I too have aways offered to fly with the "crappy" IPs.

Thank you, Rainman, for your thought, something to definitly consider (as technique.)

I like it. From here on out...I shall adopt, use, and claim to be my own.

[Guest spar91]

i thought the ideas of asking to fly with a different ip were surprising! like technique only, i didn't know asking for an ip change was an option in upt - or maybe it wasn't 6 years ago?

considering i didn't get along with my first ip in upt at all, and had a few hooks at the beginning of phase 1,

maybe if i had asked...

luckily things turned out alright!

;)

but do keep in mind, coming from a former sq scheduler, if you have a personality conflict with someone, and you can't get over it, let the scheduler know. i've seen it in 2 squadrons so far, i don't see anything wrong with it. caveat - in a small squadron (like C-21s) it could be sometimes hard to avoid. in a big squadron (like C-17s) it really shouldn't be too hard.

[Guest SnakeT38]

I agree with Rainman's thought's but as the "supervisor" of the "shittay" IP.........

If their "technique" was a "personal problem" that always came to "light" when they flew,

in my book, it's my job to correct that "problem" or make it "go away".