Flight Engineer ?s

[Azimuth]

Those are questions you need to ask your Chief Engineer.

[169FE]

I have asked the Chief Engineer and I've gotten outstanding feedback. I figured this was a good place to seek additional knowledge. Thank you for the advice I appreciate your time.

[uhhello]

Was in your same shoes all rev'd up wanting to succeed but honestly, everything you need will be presented in the various schools and leaning forward will more than likely only hurt you as you won't have the reasoning behind what you're reading. Good luck.

[169FE]

That makes sense, thank you for the advice. Are you an FE? You're right, I'm just rev'd up and ready to earn the job title like you said. I'll just take a step back for the time being. Thanks again I really appreciate.

[HerkFE]

Best advice I could give you is to try to find an FE instructor in your squadron who would be willing to teach you how to run a TOLD card before you ever leave for BFE. Emphasis on the "try to find" because most are probably going to tell you that you'll learn it at school (they don't want to waste their time with you). However, if you can run a TOLD card when you get to BFE you will be head and shoulders above everyone in your class. About half of everyday in BFE is running TOLD, the other half is basic airmanship, weather, etc. I would spend 20 minutes doing TOLD that took everyone else 2 hours to do. Spent the rest of the time in class reading over tomorrow's lesson. Spent my evenings drinking and watching everyone else tearing their hair out trying to do their TOLD homework and reading over today's and tomorrow's lesson. Trust me on this.

[uhhello]

Best advice I could give you is to try to find an FE instructor in your squadron who would be willing to teach you how to run a TOLD card before you ever leave for BFE. Emphasis on the "try to find" because most are probably going to tell you that you'll learn it at school (they don't want to waste their time with you). However, if you can run a TOLD card when you get to BFE you will be head and shoulders above everyone in your class. About half of everyday in BFE is running TOLD, the other half is basic airmanship, weather, etc. I would spend 20 minutes doing TOLD that took everyone else 2 hours to do. Spent the rest of the time in class reading over tomorrow's lesson. Spent my evenings drinking and watching everyone else tearing their hair out trying to do their TOLD homework and reading over today's and tomorrow's lesson. Trust me on this.

Good point. Although if you have have a brain you will still find plenty of free time to drink.

[HerkFE]

Good point. Although if you have have a brain you will still find plenty of free time to drink.

That is true but I was a WHOLE lot less stressed than the rest of my classmates.

[169FE]

HerkFE and uhello; man gents I really appreciate this feedback. I will undoubtedly dig in to this idea as soon as I can. I have a drill coming up shortly and am going to drop by my ops to ask about this, and if there might be someone willing to key me in on TOLD so that I can be prepped. If there is the opportunity to be more prepared, and have more drinking time!? I'm in 110%! Again, I really appreciate that feedback.

[Guest]

The Flight Doc said everything looked good, but what I understand now is that the medical packet or all of my information must go to the state now for final approval.

If Guard is anything like AD or Reserve, your package will sit on some Colonel's desk for 2-4 weeks, and then be approved, assuming your bases' flight docs and techs know what they're doing and you didn't need a waiver and they included everything necessary in the paperwork. If somebody goofed up, they'll need to resubmit your package, and that'll add another 2 or so weeks to the process.

[loadsmith]

Anyone still actively reading this post? Don't want to revamp the topic in a new thread if I can get some answers from those in here who already know about or fly as an FE! I'm in the midst of flying as an FE on C-130Hs out of Illinois (hopefully). Thanks all.

Your best bet would be checking out the Military Times Forums. There is a thread for your type of questions and it's 411 pages long. You may have to create an account and do some searching through the thread before posting a question.

http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1561151-Flight-Engineer-retraining&highlight=flight+engineer

[169FE]

If Guard is anything like AD or Reserve, your package will sit on some Colonel's desk for 2-4 weeks, and then be approved, assuming your bases' flight docs and techs know what they're doing and you didn't need a waiver and they included everything necessary in the paperwork. If somebody goofed up, they'll need to resubmit your package, and that'll add another 2 or so weeks to the process.

Yeah, I figured this was the case. I believe we all go through the same school house, so virtually the process is all the same. I imagine like you said, it'll sit on some Colonel's desk for a while collecting dust, and hopefully get approved. The only waiver I was required was for PRK. I went through the 1, 3, 6, 9, and 12 month process with my eye doc and cleared vision with him, so; I believe that it still required a waiver after the eye doc signed me as green light go.

Your best bet would be checking out the Military Times Forums. There is a thread for your type of questions and it's 411 pages long. You may have to create an account and do some searching through the thread before posting a question.

http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1561151-Flight-Engineer-retraining&highlight=flight+engineer

This is money, loadsmith; thank you very much. I will definitely dig through this tomorrow on the holiday off. Thank you again. I really appreciate all your guys' feedback and advice.

[169FE]

I just got done reading through the entire forum listed above by loadsmith, and boy let me tell you; if you haven't before and want to learn a lot of current 1A1 career field information take a peak at it. A lot of it seemed to pertain to the Active Duty process in getting hired on to cross-train in to this field, so as a National Guardsmen being hired on like myself, it may not help out in detail a whole lot since our process is a little different (at least I get the feeling it is). If there is anyone else reading this forum looking for high-level knowledge on the career field, here is what I took away from the 5 years worth of forum discussion within the link:

Current FE Training (may not be assigned by your base training office in this order) *please correct me if I'm wrong

1. EAUC (Aircrew Fundamentals), 2 weeks, Lackland AFB, TX
2. BFE (Basic Flight Engineer School), roughly 3-5 weeks, Lackland AFB, TX; NOTE: rotary and tilt-rotor material has been removed from the course, and concentrates more on fixed-wing. Come to class with copies of your Form 1042, Flight Physical, and ready to study, study, study. The training consists of 9 blocks, and most mention that blocks 3-5 are the most difficult. Studying in groups and keeping a regimen is an absolute must.
3. SERE (Search, Evade, Resistance, Escape School), 3 weeks, Fairchild AFB, WA
4. FIxed-Wing Parachute Training, 1-2 days, Fairchild AFB, WA
5. Water Survival Training, 2-3 days, Hurlburt Field, FL
6. FTU (Airframe Specific Flight Training), length of training and locations vary depending on assigned airframe
7. OJT (On-The-Job Training), 2-3 months, this may only apply to Reservists and Guard

Some questions that I still have from that forum are:

1. Does the board at AFPC still meet at the end of every month to review packets?
2. After going through your Flight Class III Physical for this AFSC on base and it being approved by your local flight doc, does anyone else of a medical background review it at a higher level before approval (AFPC, etc. folks)?
3. The general timeline from packet submittal (status 3) until AFPC approves it (status 5), to when you get school dates (status 6), and then actually leave for training seems to be around 6-8 months in total. Does that sound pretty accurate to anyone with the knowledge?
4. Many AD guys talk about being able to track their "status" through vMPF. Does it work the same for Air Guardsmen? We use vMPF as well, just don't have access to it outside of base without a CAC reader.
5. Do the training courses listed above generally get set up for you to do back to back from one another, or can they be split over a prolonged period of time?

Yes I plan on asking these questions on the forum I actually read, I just joined though and an administrator hasn't given me the rights to do so yet. I'm sure a lot of folks on there could answer these too since all the questions surfaced from my reading that forum.

Thanks all!

Edited January 27, 2014 by 169FE

[Azimuth]

BFE is not 6-months, that's more Initial Qual/IQT/FTU/Whatever your airframe calls it. The basic courses (BBOC, BLM, BFE, etc) are around 3-5 weeks. It's designed to be a washout course to see if you understand basic FE and aviation concepts before the USAF spends a ton of money on you to retrain in the pipeline. Also there's two water survival courses. If your aircraft still has parachutes (we lost them a few years ago in the KC-135), you'll get to parachute water survival down in NAS Pensacola. If you don't have parachutes, you'll stay at Fairchild for the non-parachute water survival. Each course is only 3-5 days long. I think rotary wing have to do the water dunker as well.

Enlisted Aviators don't have "OJT" and most of us don't have CDC's anymore as well (Booms don't). After you complete the pipeline, to include initial qualification in your airframe, you'll go back home and do a local checkout. Some airframes do mission certification training in the FTU (i.e. Herks did last time I looked). Some units don't do that (KC-135's), you'll have to do that when you get out of initial qual.

[Guest]

The IFC III that your local flight doc / clinic perform is just part of the medical clearance process. Every IFC package is submitted to MAJCOM for final review and approval, which is nearly always AETC because that will be the gaining MAJCOM if retraining is approved. This is the standard process every flight medicine clinic / MSME office. This is different from IFC I (Pilot) applications, which require a TDY to Wright-Patt (MFS).

[169FE]

BFE is not 6-months, that's more Initial Qual/IQT/FTU/Whatever your airframe calls it. The basic courses (BBOC, BLM, BFE, etc) are around 3-5 weeks. It's designed to be a washout course to see if you understand basic FE and aviation concepts before the USAF spends a ton of money on you to retrain in the pipeline. Also there's two water survival courses. If your aircraft still has parachutes (we lost them a few years ago in the KC-135), you'll get to parachute water survival down in NAS Pensacola. If you don't have parachutes, you'll stay at Fairchild for the non-parachute water survival. Each course is only 3-5 days long. I think rotary wing have to do the water dunker as well.

Enlisted Aviators don't have "OJT" and most of us don't have CDC's anymore as well (Booms don't). After you complete the pipeline, to include initial qualification in your airframe, you'll go back home and do a local checkout. Some airframes do mission certification training in the FTU (i.e. Herks did last time I looked). Some units don't do that (KC-135's), you'll have to do that when you get out of initial qual.

Excellent, thank you Azimuth. Got my dates mixed up there! Definitely way off on the BFE timeframe. It being a washout course makes perfect sense. Some guys on threads were talking about using per diem down there to get a really nice place with a few other guys since you're down there a while, which makes no sense to me if you're only at Lackland for say a total of 7-8 weeks between EAUC and BFE then. When the time comes I'll probably just go to the Air Force Inns or wherever my classmates stay, and study, study, study.

I'll be going through for FE on C-130s, and I do believe that the training down at Pcola takes place for us. I also think that my Chief Engineer told me shortly ago that we do have some on-base flying after all the schooling for 2-3 months too. I know that our demand is pretty high for flyers, so maybe that's why they have the FEs on my base spending time flying after; not sure.

The IFC III that your local flight doc / clinic perform is just part of the medical clearance process. Every IFC package is submitted to MAJCOM for final review and approval, which is nearly always AETC because that will be the gaining MAJCOM if retraining is approved. This is the standard process every flight medicine clinic / MSME office. This is different from IFC I (Pilot) applications, which require a TDY to Wright-Patt (MFS).

Even though I've done everything I can up to this point and my FCIII went good on base, I know better then to get all excited. I applied and was chosen to fly as a Nav 3 years ago and had it held up short due to near-sided vision after my packet went out. Since then I've had PRK and am reapplying so we'll see what happens.

Thanks a lot for the replies.

[169FE]

The IFC III that your local flight doc / clinic perform is just part of the medical clearance process. Every IFC package is submitted to MAJCOM for final review and approval, which is nearly always AETC because that will be the gaining MAJCOM if retraining is approved. This is the standard process every flight medicine clinic / MSME office. This is different from IFC I (Pilot) applications, which require a TDY to Wright-Patt (MFS).

Thank you for the explanation, I really appreciate it. I'm not sure what it all means, I just know that it means I am not in the clear yet! So, I required a waiver for PRK. I went through the 1, 3, 6, 9, 12 month checkups with my eye doc, who at my FCIII eye exam with him a month ago told me that, "you are well within the limits." The flight doc at the end also said everything looked go, so I'm really hoping that AETC sees it this way too.

I know that if you were given a dollar every time asked you this next question you'd probably be a millionaire, but would there happen to be any timeline it usually take AETC to review a physical and approve it? Is there a time of the month they usually round up all packets and review them? Also, are there any additional things that have to occur prior to going from a status 3 to a status 5 after AETC reviews and approves a packet?

Thank you again! Cheers.

[Guest]

would there happen to be any timeline it usually take AETC to review a physical and approve it? Is there a time of the month they usually round up all packets and review them? Also, are there any additional things that have to occur prior to going from a status 3 to a status 5 after AETC reviews and approves a packet?

A rough estimate would be with a simple waiver like PRK, 3 weeks after submittal to MAJCOM, 2 weeks if there was no waiver. HOWEVER, you don't know exactly when it is submitted to MAJCOM because the physical is submitted via an electronic application that routes for electronic signatures within the Medical Group first, and some dentist might accidentally (re: lazily) sit on it for a week, or the SR (senior reviewer, usually the SGP or AMDS Commander) who also needs to co-sign it might be TDY or dealing with some unrelated Art 15 for some Airmen in the unit. Who knows. Give it about 2 weeks, then call back and ask the MSME for a status check. After AETC signs the physical, you should be given a copy of the DD 2807 and 2808, and if you are also currently AD, you'll need an AF 422. These 3 forms are uploaded for review in MyPers for AFPC to include in your complete retraining package.

[169FE]

A rough estimate would be with a simple waiver like PRK, 3 weeks after submittal to MAJCOM, 2 weeks if there was no waiver. HOWEVER, you don't know exactly when it is submitted to MAJCOM because the physical is submitted via an electronic application that routes for electronic signatures within the Medical Group first, and some dentist might accidentally (re: lazily) sit on it for a week, or the SR (senior reviewer, usually the SGP or AMDS Commander) who also needs to co-sign it might be TDY or dealing with some unrelated Art 15 for some Airmen in the unit. Who knows. Give it about 2 weeks, then call back and ask the MSME for a status check. After AETC signs the physical, you should be given a copy of the DD 2807 and 2808, and if you are also currently AD, you'll need an AF 422. These 3 forms are uploaded for review in MyPers for AFPC to include in your complete retraining package.

You are thee man, thank you.

I did have a waiver for PRK. I went through the 1, 3, 6, 9, 12 month process with the eye doc. Your points for it getting lost on a desk for a week or so are definitely being taken in to account. I completed my physical January 4 so it hasn't been that long, but I haven't heard anything back from my Chief Engineer. Since I'm National Guard, I can't get on the portal from home to check my status on there. I've got drill this coming weekend so I'm hoping to hear something.

One more question. If my Ops Chief is out TDY or deployed and I need another good contact to help pushing things down the road for progress; do you have a suggestion on who else could help get answers?

Thanks again.

[Guest]

Since I'm National Guard, I can't get on the portal from home to check my status on there. I've got drill this coming weekend so I'm hoping to hear something.

One more question. If my Ops Chief is out TDY or deployed and I need another good contact to help pushing things down the road for progress; do you have a suggestion on who else could help get answers?

All IFC's (except Pilot) for current ANG personnel for an ANG slot would be submitted to that state's ANG/SG. So that process might be longer than the normal AETC review, depending on the individual state's manpower, personnel support, etc.

Why would your Ops Chief know anything about the process? I'm guessing he just has contacts in the MDG and a favor he could ask, otherwise, what can he do for you? Go ask the MSME/4N's in Flight Med about the status. They'll know what's going on with your IFC package.

I've said it before, and I'll repeat it now: I'm AD. AD rules are much more direct and easy to understand. ANG/AFR generally have weird exceptions to do the same processes with fewer people (which they obviously and justifiably need to do). But to my small medical brain, I don't need to know all their rules right now, so I don't bother to learn them, because it'll all change in the next year anyway.

[169FE]

Still waiting on final packet approval (Status 5)! It's been 2 months 10 days since my FCIII. The wait is killing me!

[HerkFE]

The guard may be quicker but I don't think I ever saw a reserve physical come back in less than six months

[169FE]

Thanks for all the great information and knowledge everyone. It's been a while since I've updated on here while waiting for news, but now I have some! After a little waiting, I've received all signatures and have been approved with training dates to Aircrew Fundamentals and Basic Flight Engineer at Lackland AFB starting this coming September.

It took me roughly from January to April drills in the Guard to receive the final thumbs up for training dates after my packet was submitted. The packet had to be signed off by a flight doctor at both base and states levels prior to the training dates.

Just for FYI to any other Guard guys looking for timeline, altogether from packet submission until I leave for fundies is around 9 months (which isn't surprising to me after all the reading I've done) I just wish it could occur sooner! I suppose this will give me some time to get my life prepared and in order to be in and out of the house with all the training at different locations around the country (as well as kiss the old ladies behind a while prior to taking off for some on AC).

Hopefully my survival schools and Airframe at The Rock line up well with the training dates I have already.

Questions:

1. Is anyone familiar with or have heard of training dates with already cut orders ever changing if a slot opens up? I was cut orders for the fundies and BFE already but wonder if they could ever be bumped up.
2. Is it possible that SERE, water, and para occur prior to fundies and BFE still or do you think they'll line all survivals up right prior to Airframe at The Rock? There's probably a usual general order they send you to the schools in I would imagine.

[Azimuth]

The USAF is not going to spend money to send your SERE/Water Survival to have you wash out of BFE (and thus, waste money). On the Boom side of the house we see ANG/AFRC students go to SERE after BBOC (our BFE). Sometimes they do it after BBOC before Initial Qual or they do BBOC/Initial Qual then go after.

[169FE]

Makes sense Azimuth, just thought there was an outside chance. BFE is a washout course crammed into a month's time. I hear it's a fire hose of information coming at you the whole time suited to weed out all the chumps who just want to wear a flight suit so... Well I'll continue my wait, be patient, and be ready when the time comes in Sept. It's look more and more like I'll have the absolute pleasure of doing a winter SERE out at Fairchild (yippy).

Are you a Boomer on the -35, -10? Currently I'm a Field Service Engineer for the center line on the -10.

Cheers.

Edited April 15, 2014 by 169FE

[Azimuth]

I'm a -135 Boom, who's actually PCSing back to Fairchild (was there before my current assignment). There's a winter and summer course in SERE. The winter one is shorter hiking wise. I went in June, which meant it rained every day, and we hiked everywhere. I would rather go when it's cold, then do it in the spring and deal with mud, melted snow, etc.