Bergman Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 I've been surfing some GA websites lately and wondered about the cost of ownershi, maintenance, and operation cost for a few different airplanes. Anyone with any experience out there? Specifically, I'm talking about Bellanca Decathalon and/or Citabria, Christen Eagle II, and the various Pitts models. Any other good aerobatic GA airplanes I'm leaving out? How about the Van's RV-series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJDRVR Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Hey Bergman, Really depends on what you want to do with it. If you're going to teach, the metal-spar Super Decathalon is a good bet, as are the side-by-side Zlins. If you're looking for an airplane in which to compete, or just go out and relieve stress with G's, then the Pitts or Eagle are good choices. If you want to just have fun without burning much gas, and want to spent a lifetime trying to perform a perfect four-point hesitation roll, or a really fun immelman, then there is no airplane on earth like a clipped-wing, 85 horse Cub. [ 12. January 2005, 17:52: Message edited by: LJDRVR ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravedigger Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 I agree with LJDRVR. Citabria/Decathlons are fun, but mainly used for training. I would go for an RV-4 if I were you. A retired eagle driver has an RV-4 in the hangar next to ours, and he has it decked out in a tiger shark scheme. IMHO, nothing looks better than a well painted RV. He goes out for aerobatics and formation flying all the time. There are tons of RV clubs around the country tht have fly-ins and formation flying events. You can have speed, efficiency, and a hell of a lot of fun in an RV! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter14 Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 How are you gonna afford a plane AND a kid? Oh, and let me know when you get the plane so I can get on our AMS graduation trip and fly with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Av8tor Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Bergman, Depending on your budget check this out Classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Piperpilot2004 Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 wow that AT-6 was awesome!! just sell your house and live out of your car and buy it..!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergman Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 The plane would be for my own use...no instruction, just a fun-flying airplane with light acro capability. All of this is just a pipe dream, of course (as PAB pointed out) because you can't possibly afford an airplane and have kids! But it makes for interesting discussion. I really like Van's RV-8 and I also love building stuff (I'm a vertern of many muscle car projects) so that seems the logical choice. But that puts off your flying by 4-5 years. However, the outstanding performance and satisfaction from having built it yourself has got to be immense. Vans and the Cozy (canard) builders seem to have a good web ring union. Haven't been able to find much on the Christen Eagle, which is disappointing because it's such a beautiful airplane. Anyone around here built an airplane??! Love the T-6 pics! Even if you could afford the purchase price, the fuel bill would kill you! What do you guys think of $30-$40k for a Citabria just to get into airplane ownership? Your not going to set any speed records, but seems like it'd be pretty fun to fly (coming from someone who has never flown tail dragger). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JS Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Buy a Tweet. They should all be pretty cheap pretty soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stearmann4 Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Jeff, In the 30-40K range for mild/sportsman level aerobatics you're pretty much looking looking at the Champion 7EC (115HP), or if you want more power, the 7KCAB (flat wing), or possibly a ragged out 8KCAB Super Decathalon. (The latter both have Lycoming O-320 150 HP w/fixed-pitch prop.) In that price range, the problem is most aircraft will be of 1970s vintage. Even more important, unless they've been modifed, they'll have wood spars, which are strong...if properly cared for and not overstresed during their life. There's a good number of Citabria/Decathalon out there with hairline cracks in the wood spars from being over stressed. If you're looking for a 2 seater, which is pretty much a prerequisite if you've got a wife or kid (I have 2 sons), a Pitts S2A will run you in the 60's as wll as a Christen Eagle. A single hole S1-1 will go about 20-24K or basically whatever the engine is worth. Don't overlook the experimental category either. You can get alot of quality aircraft for that $40k. Look at the Acrosport II, or the StarDuster. I've seen some beautiful workmanship in the 30-40K range. If you're unfamiliar with the type, just about any aircraft has a dedicatd type-club (found through EAA.org), that'll be happy to give you specs, etc. Keep a close eye on trade-a-plane.com and barnstormers.com. Also, you'll have to get some good dual instruction before bouncing out in your new taildragger, not to mention a solid pre-buy inspection by a mechanic who's familiar with aerobatic/fabric covered aircraft. I've gone through the same trials and learned my lesson the hard (expensive) way. Give me a yell if you have any more questions about what's out there and ownership costs. Mike- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest copenhagen Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 My dad and I just first flighted our Kitfox Series 7 last fall. Fun to build - fun to fly - cheap to operate. This plane will climb at 1600fpm on a cold day with full tanks and two 200 lb people in it. I've been more and more impressed with experimentals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IAGuardWife Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Originally posted by PAB: How are you gonna afford a plane AND a kid? Oh, and let me know when you get the plane so I can get on our AMS graduation trip and fly with you! Is he going to have to buy an airplane to get you down to visit? You better be on the next AMS Grad trip! I would love to visit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellsworb Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Absolutely, without a doubt, a Steen Skybolt. Make sure you get one with a Canopy (or convertible which is a lot of fun). The 300+HP Models really kick you in the nuts. Also, if you like "building" or "altering" square the wing tips. Additionally, if you want the whole building experience, bird of choice is the Pitts Model 12. (www.2wings.com). Check it out. M-14P Radial, Bi Plane, Aero, Pretty decent legs, and the cockpit is way bigger than an S2S or Eagle. Have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJDRVR Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Bergman, after reading your second post, I'd say clipped-wing cub for sure. 85 horse Continental Same purchase price as the older Citabrias, but a lot more fun to fly with WAY more character. Cheaper operating costs also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mfont Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Since your into experimentals, check out the Glasairs. My dad owns one and I've got some time it. Great handling characteristics,(better than lancairs) and very fast for only 160-180 hp. She'll do light aerobatics, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergman Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 Thanks for the replies! Don't know if I could swing a Glasair...pretty pricey kits. What about the availability of Cubs? Seems that the few around (for sale on-line, at least) are fully restored and quite expensive for what you're getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJDRVR Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Try this link http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=s...3ec8e8c0a51d0fb For 35K you're getting an airplane that you can fly for years with only routine MX, not to mention MUCH better resale value and price retention than any other rag and tube airplane. There's one with photos about halfway down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stearmann4 Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Berg, You can get an Aeronca 7AC Champ with the exact same performance, roomier cockpit than the J-3 for around the 18-22K range. This debate had raged on for years which is better, it's simply a matter of preference. Cub prices will (and have) always increase over time simply because it's the preferred classic, a little sexier if you will. The Champ has stayed pretty stable, but if you take care of it, you'll at least break even when you decide to sell it. Keep in mind, your insurance for any taildragger will be pretty steep until you've got about 100hrs of tailwheel time. Figure with around 1,300 hrs TT and 5-10 hrs tailwheel, you'll pay roughly $1,400/yr (as per AUA Insurance)) until you build some tailwheel time. Add that to whatever loan you're going to get, plus tie down/hangar (almost mandtory for tube and fabric airplanes), plus plan on putting $5 or so for every flight hour into a maintenance account unless you have enough disposable income to payout for annuals and repairs as they arise. Lastly, 100LL is universally about $3/gal depending on geography. An 85hp Continental burns about 3-5 GPH so you can add that to the total. One last word on fixed expenses, I had a hangar in San Diego that ran almost $400/month now I live in KY and have twice the size for $100/mo. It varies greatly where you live. Plus there are state taxes, but if you own a "classic" (built more than 30 years ago, Champ, Cub, C-140, 170,even older 172s', Luscombes, and Stinson's all in the 30-40K range), you can get some tax breaks if you show it 12 times a year. (Check on these regs.) My recommendation is to go with a Champ or a Cessna 140 until you've got some experience under your belt, then insurance won't eat your lunch when you decide to upgrade to a Skybolt, RV-8, etc. Lastly, if you're not hung up on an aerobat, look at the Cessna 170 and 170A in Trade-a-plane/Barnstormers. They have the same payload (actually better) and engine as early straight- tail 172s, and carry 2 adults, 2 kids, 100lbs of bags easily at 110KIAS. You can find them fairly frequently in the for-sale sections between 30-45K. The 170/170A models have metal fuselages/rag wings, which makes them cheaper, but the value hasn't increased as much as the all-metal 170Bs. Same peformance, you just have to take care of the fabric. In my experience, it's hard to sell the 2-place plane to the wife who has to sit on the ramp with the screaming kid that lost the pick, while you soar skyward with the lucky winner. Plus, it's an awful lot of fun to pack up the plane with the whole family. (sometimes) [ 15. January 2005, 08:27: Message edited by: Stearmann4 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jetter2 Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 I would Reccomend looking into the RV's. A side-by side RV4 or RV6 is a TERIFFIC little aerobatic airplane. They are pretty cheap in ownership, and the engines aren't massive in them so they dont suck gas like a beast. I guess it all really depends on what you're mission profile is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellsworb Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 the RV4 is a tandem (front and back) The RV6 is the side by side. Pretty sweet and simple airplanes. . But seems like everyone in the EAA has one. . get somethin with style. . real airplanes have 4 wings. . not 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergman Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 Stearmann, et al. Thanks again for the info! I am finding out that I have just scratched the surface on this whole topic. My vast 69.0 hours (good stopping point, eh?) of GA time was in -172s and Cherokees and I don't have much experience beyond that. Lots to learn about the various costs, so I appreciate your input. Either way it will be a hard sell (sts) as the wifey doesn't care to fly GA. Perhaps she'll see my point of view eventually... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Does anybody have any experience with Bellancas and is there any aerobatic aircraft that would also be good for cross country flying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Piperpilot2004 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 AOPA works to keep aging aircraft safe, affordable Handling of T-34s could set precedent When the FAA holds a public meeting next month to discuss getting T-34s back in the air, the future of aging aircraft will be an important underlying theme. That's one reason AOPA will be on hand to help work for solutions that will keep older aircraft flying safely and affordably. The FAA has scheduled a February 15-16 public meeting in Kansas City, Missouri, to discuss technical issues and potential corrective actions to return Raytheon Beech Model 45 aircraft, commonly known as T-34s, to the air. The FAA grounded all T-34s in December after the in-flight wing failure of an aircraft operated by Texas Air Aces, a company that trains pilots in mock air combat. "AOPA will attend this meeting to work for solutions that can restore the safety of these aircraft," said Andy Cebula, AOPA senior vice president of Government and Technical Affairs. "For all aircraft owners, we'll continue working with the FAA on how it addresses issues facing aging aircraft." More on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Piperpilot2004 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 sounds liek the civilian T-34 is down right not, and could possibly stay grounded..that sucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And1 Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 THREAD REVIVAL! I overheard another UPT STUD talking with a friend saying he just purchased the first part of his kit plane to build in his "spare" time. I know next to nothing about kit planes, and have been trying to do some research. A lot of the experimentals look shady, and I'm sure they'd be made worse if I were to build it. I was just wondering if anyone has any suggestions for a reliable kit plane that an ameatur could build. I would like it to be a four place that can do 600-800nm cross country trips cruising between 150 and 200 KTAS as well as aerobatic. Is all this too much to ask? The RV-10 looked good, but I read somewhere it can't do aero. Can anyone shed some light since I'm pretty ignorant to this subject? Also, I wouldn't have to have a "kit" plane, it just seems like the cheaper way to go. If it were affordable, I wouldn't mind buying a certified airframe. Thanks in advance for the replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jimmy Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Get yourself an early model underpowered Cessna 150, bring a fat friend along on a hot and humid day, and enjoy all the aerobatics you care for after trying to save your life pulling out of a spin at less than 2000 AGL and the carburetor icing that later ensued just because you were attempting a "performance climb" of more than 200 ft/min on the VSI. True story. A good rule of thumb is to never trust anything that has less horsepower than the compact car you drive to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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