C-17 Globemaster Q&A

[scoobs]

How long are deployments currently.Also where are bases located.

Thanks

Scoobs

[C17Driver]

Scoobs, just like chuck said, it depends. Another thing to think about is we don't deploy in the sense that most people think. C-17 crews normally stage out of several different locations around the world.. Most crews leave on orders that have a 13-15 day TDY schedule. For example, a crew will depart on Apr 1 with a SRT (Scheduled Return Time) of 15 Apr. The catch is that one crew may leave and be out for the entire 14 days when the crew that left the next day may be out for 6 before they return and then get sent out again (recycled). The crew dawgs in the squadron are normally gone for 140 - 210 days a year.

On a side note, crews are almost always augmented (three pilots and two loadmasters) which increases the duty days to 24 hours.

An exception to this is when a particular squadron is selected to run the stage (overseas), then they'll be gone for anywhere from 45 to 90 days.

[ 28. March 2004, 21:54: Message edited by: C17Driver ]

[Toro]

Originally posted by C17Driver:

crews are almost always augmented (three pilots and two loadmasters) which increases the duty days to 24 hours.

How does that work? Do you have limitations on how long you can actually be at the controls of the aircraft, or any type of restrictions on how long or how often you need to take a break?

[Gravedigger]

The autopilot doesn't need much sleep. I also heard there was coffee pot on board. Isn't it rated to like 9 Gs or something.

[C17Driver]

Bascially, an augmented crew allows for a 24 flying duty period. Running consecutively is a Crew Duty Time that can extend the day up to 45 minutes from the 24 hours. So you're looking at 24 hours and 45 minutes for duty.

There is an exception to the 24 hour thing...Some missions to certain locations have a standing waiver for up to 26 hours...Long, long days!

There are limitations of course. If the crew is augmented, then no tactical events can be accomplished after 18 hours (ie: AR, tac arrivals/departures). If the autopilot is inop, then there are also restrictions as far as flying time. Usually the crew consists of a Mission Pilot (AC,IP,FE), First pilot, and mission co-pilot and then two loadmasters.

A basic crew, which consists of two pilots and one loadmaster is more restricted. But I've never actually been on a crew with less than 5 for a mission.

We have two bunks in the C-17, so we rotate through sleeping. Every crew gets into their own routine as far as who sleeps when during the mission.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

On the sleeping issue, and C-17Driver, correct me if I'm wrong, with a basic crew, you have to be at the immediate controls w/ max sleep time of 45 minutes, and cannot be within 1 hour of scheduled descent. With augmented crew, the rest in the aircraft bunks doesn't qualify for the 8 hours of sleep per 11-202 V3...it's just an added bonus.

Also, what are the current restrictions as far as qualification goes? Which mission do IP's HAVE to fly?

[Guest riceowl63]

On the sleeping issue, and C-17Driver, correct me if I'm wrong, with a basic crew, you have to be at the immediate controls w/ max sleep time of 45 minutes, and cannot be within 1 hour of scheduled descent.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong...but you can actually sleep at the controls of the airplane? If that is true, the guy in the other seat has to be awake to right?

[C17Driver]

C-21, I think I understand your question. There are no specific requirements as far as what time everyone on the crew must be awake other than during critical phases of flight. For a basic crew, everyone is going to be awake for the descent (usually gets pretty busy). I'm not sure what you mean about the 45 min. During cruise, my understanding is that one pilot at the controls is fine. Even with an augmented crew, there are times where there is only one pilot seated and ready to "fly" the aircraft.

As far as the rest in the crew bunks go, yeah, that sleep is just a bonus. If a pilot were to get 8 hours of rest in the crew bunk, the rest of the crew would probably hound him pretty good, and it would still not add time to the allowable flying duty day. The flying duty day for a crew applies to the entire crew. (ie; if one the loads shows up to the jet an hour earlier than everyone else, then that's when the day started regardless of the fact that we have another load on board)

There are no current restrictions that I'm aware of as far as who has to fly when during a mission. The only restriction is that you have to be current and qualified in the event you are going to accomplish. For example, a straight up co-pilot is not going to perform a full flap landing or assault landing. The Mission Pilot (who may or may not be an IP) would perform. First pilots, one step up from the Co would be able to perform the full flap.

riceowl, yes, one pilot has to be awake to fly the aircraft, talk on the radios, etc. Usually the way it works is there is one pilot in the bunk, two pilots up front. On really long days, one of the two up front may hand aircraft control and radios to the other and close their eyes for a while. However, they are in the seat and strapped in, if something were to happen, they would be ready to assist the guy that has been awake.

[ 29. March 2004, 16:29: Message edited by: C17Driver ]

[Guest AirGuardian]

C17Driver is on the money,(very well said, have definitely flown those 25 hour plus missions back to back in our former plane the 141 tube of pain...when activated!)

During In Flight Emergencies (IFE) the first pilot or co-pilot can and many times will maintain aircraft control and sometimes radios as well while the Mission Pilot or Aircraft Commander will spend their time working the issue at hand(granted the 17 pretty much trouble shoots itself compared to other aircraft in which you have to track down the troublesome molecule of h3ll). Before landing, if I recall correctly - the Aircraft Commander must maintain direct control of the aircraft passing other duties back to the first or co-pilot as needed. Definitely a crew effort and have seen it many times during our 141 era. Two Steady Fire handles, or #3 shelling out with 30 plus foot flames shooting out of her during departure... It's an awesome feeling(when safely on the ground) when people are fluidly doing the appropriate measures and not hunting for things to do to save their hides! Unlike the 141, the C-17 simulated training for emergencies are done in the simulator just as the commercial airlines do for the most part.

Oh yeah, I'll add JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI as the most recent location with the newest six C-17s with two more on the way belonging to the ANG, at least until the cry for help is heard!!!

[ 30. March 2004, 02:05: Message edited by: AirGuardian ]

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

I guess my original question had more to do with 11-202V3 rules...

In my reading on 11-202V3 ( I don't have it here at home!), it was my understanding that if you were a basic crew, both folks had to remain at the controls. One dude couldn't crash in the bunks while the other guy handled the plane. Both pilots had to be at the controls, and the max rest duration is 45 minutes, and rest couldn't be during critcal phases of flight, etc.

I'll re-read it today when I go back into work and clarify the correct answer if I'm wrong...

Thanks again, and what SQ'd are you in...are you at CHS? Just curious, I was a load in the 17th back from 1995-1997...

[Guest mrharvester]

Another quick question: When you are at the controls during cruise flight (with the autopilot) with nothing else going on, are you allowed to read or do anything else?

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

With the autopilot engaged, there has to be one qualified crewmember at the immediate controls (i.e. lap belt strapped).

In the C-21, we can get up out of the seat at cruise (if above FL350, one dude has to suck the hose) to stretch our legs 'cause that's about all we "can" do. We usually don't get out of the seat, but rather do some sort of system brief, or teach the GRACC, something to kill time. I'm usually busy doing mission paperwork or other desk jockey items that I can't do due to time constraints. I'll study for my Master's, for IP school, play with the HF radio, etc - whatever you can do to stay confortable and sane.

[C17Driver]

MRH, to answer your question yes, you can. I've seen everything from guys studying their e-pubs to catching up on some studying for classes (as C-21 mentioned). Sometimes we do question and answer to determine who is going to buy the drink of choice at the destination. Just depends. The list goes on as far as what different guys do while in the seats.

[Guest AirGuardian]

If you happen to be flying across the pond with your friends in other heavy aircraft, it can get as interesting as doing the trivial pursuit between aircraft, and other dumb stuff just to keep from sticking your eye out with a pencil. Always carry plenty of mags and books with me. Either way, Staying at or below FL 350 for mask reasons keeps the ride smooth, but with thunderstorms around most are willing to go higher anytime.

[ 31. March 2004, 02:41: Message edited by: AirGuardian ]

[Guest sprint]

Why do c-17's etc, have their horizontal stabilizer up high? What effect does it have on the flight characteristics?

Thanks

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

For the T-tail discussion, it's basically more of an aerodynamical advantage for the T-tail. I'm by no means a aerodynamic freak, but these are "common known" areas for T-tail drivers - as learned in the T-1.

First, some basics:

The Parts of an Airplane’s Tail

The tail of an airplane is called by various names, such as “empennage” and “stabilizer.” The preferred term is “stabilizer,” because it is at least partially descriptive of the component’s function. However, the stabilizer provides not only stability but also some of the airplane’s control.

The tail of an airplane is designed to provide both stability and control of the airplane in pitch and yaw. There are many different forms an aircraft tail can take in meeting these dual requirements of stability and control. Most tail designs have a horizontal winglike structure and one or more vertical or near-vertical structures. Whenever practical, these structures are identified as the horizontal and vertical stabilizers, although some designs do not conveniently fit such a description.

In the T-tail design (as incorporated by the C-17, C-21, C-5, etc), a common variation of the conventional tail, the horizontal stabilizer is positioned at the top of the vertical stabilizer. The horizontal stabilizer is then above the jet wash and the wing wake. Because the horizontal stabilizer is now more efficient, it can therefore be made both smaller and lighter. The placement of the horizontal stabilizer on top of the vertical stabilizer can also make the vertical stabilizer more aerodynamically efficient. By making the vertical stabilizer more effective, its size may be reduced. However, the horizontal stabilizer in the T-tail layout imposes a bending and twisting load on the vertical stabilizer, requiring a stronger, and therefore, a heavier, structure. These loads are avoided in the conventional design. There is also the possibility that at the high pitch angle usually associated with landing the airplane, the horizontal stabilizer of the T tail will be immersed in the slower and more turbulent flow of the wing wake. In some cases, it is possible to compromise severely the control function of the horizontal tail.

There are a number of pros and cons to this arrangement.

Pros

1.) The tailplane surfaces are kept well out of the airflow behind the wing, giving smoother flow, more predictable design characteristics, and better pitch control. This is especially important for planes operating at low speed, where clean airflow is required for control. deHavilland Canada's line of larger STOL aircraft all use this arrangement for this reason.

2.) The effective distance between wing and tailplane can be increased without a significant increase in the weight of the aircraft. The distance between the two planes gives the "leverage" by which the tailplane can control the aircraft's pitch attitude - with a greater distance, smaller, lighter tailplanes and elevators can be used.

3.) The tail surfaces are mounted well out of the way of the rear fuselage, permitting this site to be used for the aircraft's engines.

Cons

1.) The aircraft will tend to be much more prone to a dangerous deep stall condition, where blanking of the airflow over the tailplane and elevators by a stalled wing can lead to total loss of pitch control.

2.) For similar reasons, T-tailed aircraft can be much more difficult to recover from a fully-developed spin.

3.) The fin must be made considerably stronger and stiffer to support the forces generated by the tailplane. This inevitably makes it heavier as well.

4.) The control runs to the elevators are more complex.

5.) The elevator surfaces are much more difficult to casually inspect from the ground.

Nevertheless, the T tail is the second-most common tail design after the conventional.

[ 03. June 2004, 18:31: Message edited by: C-21 Pilot ]

[Guest sharpie911]

Hi everyone... its been a while since ive posted but i had a questions on the same topic. Last weekend a C-17 flew into my airport. The aircraft remained overnight and the crew left the next morning.

My questions: 1) When the plane shutdown the thrust reversers were deployed on all engines. Why?

2) When the plane made its approach, it did a fly-by, then landed. Is this a requirement?

In all the C-17 is amazing i couldnt believe it could land at our airport. It was an amazing sight. It makes me want to fly it in the future. Thanks for all your replies.

[C17Driver]

Sharpie,

The Thrust reversers could be deployed for several reasons. Probably the most likely reason is for a tailwind. Having the TR's out prevents possible compressor stalls with high tailwinds.

As far as the flyby, what you might have seen was an overhead pattern or some variation thereof. There is no requirement to do a flyby prior to landing.

[C17Driver]

Seems like quite a few of you are asking about the timing after graduation from UPT. I figured I'd share a timeline that most of my buddies and I followed in the last year or two.

July 03 - Graduate JSUPT

Aug 03 - Most of month spent TDY at Water Survival and Land Survival

Sept 03 - CPIQ (co-pilot initial qual) at Altus

Nov 03 - Complete CPIQ

Dec 03 - Report to McChord

Feb 04 - Fly dollar ride mission (first overseas mission) (which lasted 16 days)

Oct 04 - Upgrade to First Pilot

To date stats:

Calendar Year 04 - 160+ days TDY

Total C-17 Time - 800+ hours (just under 10 months mission ready - Note: you only get about 14 hours of flying time in the actual jet while at Altus)

If you have any other specific questions, please feel free to ask or PM me.

[Riddller]

That 800+ in 10 months, do you think that's mainly 'cuz of what's going on in the world, or were C-17's getting that kind of flight time prior to 911? Thanks!!

[C17Driver]

It's due to current world events. But talking to the old heads in the squadron and out in the system, it's hard to believe that times will change anytime soon. Basically, TACC has figured out that they can put some pretty difficult requests on the crew and most crews will make it work somehow. So the days of the 'keeper' jets and channel missions are probably not coming back anytime soon.

The new push is to Deadhead basic crews out to the stage and then have those basic crews fly some of the shorter more common missions through OIF. Of course there are pro's and con's to doing this, but I don't think the benefit is going to be as apparent to the planners as they think.

[Guest spar91]

update to C17Driver's comments about basic crews - TACC put the kabash (sp?) on it...

also, c17 cpiq is either a)no longer or b)not going to be around much longer - altus is pumping out super-copilots now - which is a "first pilot" with 0 hours - meaning they are qualified to fly from either seat, and hang out in pre-contact (air refueling position) also with 0 hours (while the ac takes a break, if need be...)

the super-cp [aka "mopey-dopey" which is the way to pronounce the MPDP/whatever new acronym that means "super copilot"] initial qual lasts somewhere around 3 months long, i believe.

and as for c17driver's hours - those are representative of copilots/first pilots. they are abused.

:>

[Guest empire_gear]

why does the C-17 have a joystick and a HUD?

[Gravedigger]

Because it is the most kick ass plane ever made. What the heck do you even think? :D

Read the first few paragraphs of this article to see the value of the HUD.HUD info

As for the stick, it is a fly by wire system, and sticks are more ergonomic. Especially for the tactical mission. Just a guess.

[ 12. April 2005, 21:34: Message edited by: c17wannabe ]

[Toro]

I believe that the C-17 is the only USAF aircraft besides the F-16 whose HUD is certified as a primary flight instrument, correct?