Classic Thread - Pilot poser on Corvette Forum

[Guest Tex_Hill]

I've been called out on sites. I flew COD's off the boat but some folks, think they know it all and I've been put to the test. Real easy, I post a pic, something that's not easily found:

Unfortunately Bunk, photo's aren't even enough proof in this day & age. Remember when Skeeterman posted this pic in the No Tow Truck To Be Found thread over at AirWarriors?

He set the entire thing up to make everyone believe he had flown that aircraft. When A4's started exposing Skeeterman as a fraud I figured that the picture had to be a fake, so I started looking for the original on the internet. It took me 2 or 3 days of searching, but I finally found it here: Airliners.net/William Butler

The only way to know for sure if a person is telling the truth is by submitting a Form 180 to the Military Records Center in St Louis. With it you can find out:

* Name

* Age (date of birth)

* Dates of service

* Source of commission

* Rank/grade and date attained

* Marital status

* Promotion sequence number

* Salary*

* Office phone number*

* City/town and state of last known address and date of this address

* Serial/service number (those issued prior to the use of the social security number as the service number)

* Decorations and awards

* Place of birth; date and geographical location of death; and place of burial+

* Military and civilian education level

* Photograph (or photocopy if only one photo is available)

* Place of induction and separation

* Duty assignments (including geographical location)

* Dependents (including name, sex, and age)

* records of court-martial trial (unless classified)

* education/schooling (military)

* future assignments which have been finalized*

* duty status#

* These items obviously relate to active duty personnel and are not likely to be found in the records at this Center.

# For records at this Center this generally means discharged or retired.

+ If person is deceased, these items also may generally be released.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Tex_Hill

[Guest bunk22]

The IFF is all of the modes.

Exactly, that's why when one says IFF, it rings a bell as off. Maybe thats who things were said in the 60's or 70', I don't know so an explanation is in order.

[Guest bunk22]

Unfortunately Bunk, photo's aren't even enough proof in this day & age. Remember when Skeeterman posted this pic in the No Tow Truck To Be Found thread over at AirWarriors?

He set the entire thing up to make everyone believe he had flown that aircraft. When A4's started exposing Skeeterman as a fraud I figured that the picture had to be a fake, so I started looking for the original on the internet. It took me 2 or 3 days of searching, but I finally found it here: Airliners.net/William Butler

I agree, but it's a start. I remember the pic above and then what followed. With Whitelock1.....err........Blackstar........err Dimestore, first thing I got was my parents have them. Then it goes to I don't have to provide anything to, like above, generic pics of a plaque. Matter of fact, Skeeterman sent the same thing. Pics of a plaque showing he was for real. Every fake follows the same sort of path.

[brickhistory]

I will admit to being confused:

1. Blackstar said he was a JAG - called NORAD/JAG, no flyers, captains, or recently pinned majors. Called Peterson JAG and a "Mike" answered the phone. Asked if he had a black Corvette, he asked "Why do you want to know?" and hung up.

2. Checked global against the name on Whiterock's plaque; name matches to one in global at Peterson. Called the orderly room of the unit listed, there is a guy by that name working there, he is in his late 50s, so the Vietnam-era age checks.

3. This guy's details are either too readily googled and the little things that are just a tad off put loads of doubt on his veracity.

4. He won't/can't answer simple questions that anyone should be able to answer.

So, for me, there is enough quacking for me to conclude to my satisfaction that

1+2+3+4 = duck

BTW, is there any other USAF officer who doesn't call it the "JAG office?" I've been calling it that for 20+ years.......

Edited September 1, 2007 by brickhistory

[Guest Scribe]

I think off-line Mod interaction can prove/disprove the Whiterock/Dimestore story readily enough with direct comms leaving only the question of the 20 days and ~200 posts of Blackstar as F-16/JAG driving same car and using same computer as an open issue before Dimestore appeared. None of these usernames coexisted at same time so someone is really running a number on Whiterock/Dimestore with close knowledge of his story and access to same "comon" computer. Since posts were literally 24/7, Corvette Mods would have to run the IP used for after hour posting and that would ID the elusive Blackstar.

So if Whiterock = 13th TFS "Whiterock", he deserves vindication and help in discerning who is "drove his car" for 20 days. Heck of a pickle for taking up arms in the Corvette Forum "Wax Wars", but maybe that should have stayed at home.

[HerkDerka]

Scribe, don't you have some questions to answer?

Edit: For those not in the know, Scribe is legit.

HD

Edited September 2, 2007 by HerkDerka

[Guest Scribe]

Scribe, don't you have some questions to answer?

HD

Thanks for heads up. Wasn't watching that thread. Done and PM sent.

[Toro]

I think everybody here has gotten so far spun up about the (accurately described) witch hunt that they’re putting blinders onto the possibility of Whitestar being anything but a fake.

Why do people care so much if internet folk believe you were in or not?

Any self-respecting pilot would take offense to being called a fake, internet or not.

If you're the real deal a .mil email to a .mil email would verify who you are at the office and that could be correlated to the past you claim.

He provided a .mil email, to which the response was “well, that doesn’t prove anything”

Blackstar posted almost 200 times over 20 days. You're saying someone in your office was doing that just to set you up? Kinda funny as he was posting outside office hours so must be a lot of recreation going on in that office.

No, he wasn’t saying anybody was trying to “set him up,” he was saying that somebody else from his office was posting as well. As far as posting outside of business hours, that was probably done at home. The IP address that is logged for registration is only the address from where you registered. I don’t know about the Corvette Forum, but Baseops logs the IP address from where you register. Administrators can dig into your profile and see all the IP addresses where you post from. I would imagine the ‘outside office hours’ posts would be a different IP address.

Textbook poser response (as was stated previously).

No, I really don’t think it is. He was called out, he provided a good deal of information to include names of people for anybody who wishes to contact. Refer to my first response to Fuse above – any self-respecting pilot would take offense and offer proof. Past that, I don’t blame him for telling everybody to get f***ed. Not to say he is on the same level, but I could see our crusty old godfather Rainman doing the same thing in his early days; offering up info to prove he’s legit, then telling guys to pound sound if they didn’t believe him.

BTW, pictures prove nothing. My boss is a retired RCAF Colonel, & I can post pictures of his stuff in his office & pass it off as myself.

Yes, but your missing the point that he registered with, and e-mailed me from his work address. Take a look at the picture

Now take a closer look at the name in the picture

The name on his military address is the same as the name in the plaque.

I admit, it’s an odd coincidence that the posts of Whiterock and Dimestore are intermingled with the obviously fake Blackstar, but Whiterock has proven that at least part of his story is true.

Whiterock, I do believe that an answer to those requested questions would easily quiet the crowds.

Scribe, don't you have some questions to answer?

Indeed. I've got far more faith in Whitestar being legit than Scribe. An egg, seriously? Time for the witchhunt to shift...fight's on!

[Guest bunk22]

Unfortunetly for Whiterock1, the same IPaddress being using by a Blackstar and Dimestore pretending to be something they are not is not helping. I think if it had just been Whiterock1, nothing ever would have come of it. I think somebody messed with the old man. His lingo is still off, just like Skeeterman, yet still not convinced for the above reasons. He said 3 days ago he sent me stuff via my NMCI, never got it, yet. Could be NMCI though and those who use them know exactly what I'm talking about. If someone gets angry for being called a fake when are they are not, there's no need to get to angry. Prove em wrong, kick in the balls. Like the Sketter's, the flatterhater's, they get angry, takes days for a response (have to search the web or find a plaque) etc. For a while, I thought I might be skeeterman. Maybe I'm Whiterock1?? Of course I'm not old enough nor did I ever or will ever fly anthing as sweet as a Phantom. I do have a question though, in a PM from Whiterock1, he said he sent me a pic of him in his work suit.......not flight suit? It's the small things that matter

[Guest Whiterock]

I, too, flew F-4s out of Thailand in 1973-74...497thTFS, Ubon RTAFB.

I'm curious how anyone got a Red River patch after the Peace Accords were signed.

Maybe because the Rats didn't require Route Pack 6 only. Any combat by any air crew in any war is ok for membership. That's how I got in. Look it up and...

Then why don't you take a good look at my picture and explain to that ######ing moron Bunk the difference between a flight suit and a work suit. Then you can explain how that other little piece of information exclusive to those who flew in SEA fell into the hands of a poser. Google "work suit" and find the reference to what they were in SEA. Any lying 'poseur'--oh, did I spell it right? can find this stuff out, right. Did you know a Jack Anderson there, Major I forget his squadron but look around. Jack and I were friends at George AFB in F-4 RTU. He went to Ubon a bit later than I went to Udorn, then Torejon, or however a "real" fighter pillot would spell it.

Let's see if I spell this right AMF.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Whiterock

[brickhistory]

What was your pilot class # and patch? Even a description in lieu of a photo will suffice.

What other squadrons did you fly with?

What was squadron standard for dumping the drag chute? Actually, since it would have been 30 + years ago, that's not fair. Just a realistic recount of how to dump the chute will suffice, please.

Who were Moonbeam and Cricket? If you flew, you knew.......

Two outta three?

Edited September 1, 2007 by brickhistory

[Guest alfakilo]

Maybe because the Rats didn't require Route Pack 6 only. Any combat by any air crew in any war is ok for membership. That's how I got in. Look it up and...

So you are saying that anyone can wear the Red River patch as long as they have flown combat somewhere?

OK...but not in the F-4 community that I was in. That distinction was reserved for those who went north. I didn't, and so I would have been embarrassed to stick that thing on my flight suit or jacket. What's next? Wearing the FWS patch because you heard of it?

EDIT...You may be a member of the current Red River Rats Association...but if you think that entitles you to wearing that patch, then you deserve all the shit you get here.

Then why don't you take a good look at my picture and explain to that ######ing moron Bunk the difference between a flight suit and a work suit.

It's your picture, you explain it. Work suits...and party suits...were kinda unique to that war.

Did you know a Jack Anderson there, Major I forget his squadron but look around.

He was in the 497th as was I and I remember him well. He often was the sounding board for us frustrated company grade types.

Edited September 1, 2007 by alfakilo

[Guest bunk22]

Maybe because the Rats didn't require Route Pack 6 only. Any combat by any air crew in any war is ok for membership. That's how I got in. Look it up and...

Then why don't you take a good look at my picture and explain to that ######ing moron Bunk the difference between a flight suit and a work suit. Then you can explain how that other little piece of information exclusive to those who flew in SEA fell into the hands of a poser. Google "work suit" and find the reference to what they were in SEA. Any lying 'poseur'--oh, did I spell it right? can find this stuff out, right. Did you know a Jack Anderson there, Major I forget his squadron but look around. Jack and I were friends at George AFB in F-4 RTU. He went to Ubon a bit later than I went to Udorn, then Torejon, or however a "real" fighter pillot would spell it.

Let's see if I spell this right AMF.

You sound frustrated because some folks don't believe you . Gee, Dimest.......er Black.....I mean Whiterock, I hope I didn't offend you or hurt your feelings If you wanted to be legit from the get go, why not just provide the info without the anger or defensiveness? I still don't get the whole Blackstar and Dimestore thing (same IP address? but only one was you?). There are lies and deceit.......not what one would expect from a supposedly former officer and F-4 driver. So what's the difference between a work suit and flight suit? You explain it, you're a big man, you don't need others to defend you. What years did you fly combat in Vietnam? With the wing shown above?

Edited September 1, 2007 by bunk22

[Guest Whiterock]

So you are saying that anyone can wear the Red River patch as long as they have flown combat somewhere?

OK...but not in the F-4 community that I was in. That distinction was reserved for those who went north. I didn't, and so I would have been embarrassed to stick that thing on my flight suit or jacket. What's next? Wearing the FWS patch because you heard of it?

It's your picture, you explain it. Work suits...and party suits...were kinda unique to that war.

He was in the 497th as was I and I remember him well. He often was the sounding board for us frustrated company grade types.

As you were there and knew Jack--he and his wife Kim were our best friends at George. I was a 2Lt and he a Major, of coures, but we hit it off. I got a lot of razzing from the other brown bars because I hung around with a Major. We played bridge, board games, went to Big Bear, down to the Navy's on the water condos at North Island and were just really good friends. "That's what the bride said..." never forget Jack's favorite line. My wife and I were so sorry to hear he and Kim divorced in '74 when he got the orders to Spain.

When I said River Rats, I was referring to the Red River Valley Fighter Pilots' Association, not the RP6 fliers. No one can wear a combat patch they didn't earn. The RRVFPA is an org open to anyone who served in a combat situation on an aircrew. As I said, of course it's all a lie, Colonel Dave Brog and L/C John 'Famous Amos Parker,' Dave retired and Famous has gone west...a good friend, sponsored me into the group. I may rejoin as they do alot for vets' surviving kids. Open to SWA fliers too, which I thought I had said.

I'm posting out of respect for a fellow SEA vet's service. Changes dick about sticking around where I'm not wanted.

Mike

[HerkDerka]

The only thing that will hush the fury is when Whiterock answers Brickhistory.

HD

[Guest bunk22]

I'm posting out of respect for a fellow SEA vet's service. Changes dick about sticking around where I'm not wanted.

Mike

Do I sense a tear? Are you f'ing kidding me? You pretend to be somebody you're not, get angry when asked to verify, complain and bitch about it. If you're going to lie about one thing, why not lie about other things? Behavior I would never expect out of former military officer, internet or not. I say don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[HerkDerka]

It's always a fun day here at crucibleops.net!

HD

Edited September 2, 2007 by HerkDerka

[Guest Scribe]

When I said River Rats, I was referring to the Red River Valley Fighter Pilots' Association, not the RP6 fliers. No one can wear a combat patch they didn't earn. The RRVFPA is an org open to anyone who served in a combat situation on an aircrew. As I said, of course it's all a lie, Colonel Dave Brog and L/C John 'Famous Amos Parker,' Dave retired and Famous has gone west...a good friend, sponsored me into the group. I may rejoin as they do alot for vets' surviving kids. Open to SWA fliers too, which I thought I had said.

He's right. Last fall, the Tidewater Tailhook chapter hosted the "Rats" during their get together in Norfolk and I was surprised to meet a Raven guy from SWA who was their historian. He said they looked at diminishing membership and decided to open the membership as Whiterock states.

That said, my dad did several SEA inspection tours 1971-73 and brought back some patches whch included a River Rat patch. That is a collectible item for sure, but even though I qualify for membership, out of respect for the real River Rats, I don't think I'd wear the patch although I'd surely honor those who went "Downtown" as Jack Broughton immortalized the phrase.

[Guest Whiterock]

Do I sense a tear? Are you f'ing kidding me? You pretend to be somebody you're not, get angry when asked to verify, complain and bitch about it. If you're going to lie about one thing, why not lie about other things? Behavior I would never expect out of former military officer, internet or not. I say don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

I can't seem to get away, can I. I could say don't worry about the door hitting me in the ass when I leave, but watch out for your head as you'll be kissing it while I leave. But I won't. I will say I apologize for calling you a ######ing moron. No matter how mad I was, it was out of line. No, no tears, but you--and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt you never gave me, are an officer in the armed forces of this country, and used words I shouldn't have and didn't mean. Let's leave it at that.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Whiterock

[Guest bunk22]

I can't seem to get away, can I. I could say don't worry about the door hitting me in the ass when I leave, but watch out for your head as you'll be kissing it while I leave. But I won't. I will say I apologize for calling you a ######ing moron. No matter how mad I was, it was out of line. No, no tears, but you--and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt you never gave me, are an officer in the armed forces of this country, and used words I shouldn't have and didn't mean. Let's leave it at that.

I've been called worse, that doesn't bother me. I still don't get all the identities (even just one), that's the weird thing. If it wasn't for that, I don't think I would have every questioned your past. The off the wall lingo as well raised flags, as far as I'm concerned. It all rang very true to those guys who were real fakes, same sort of shananigans. It appears many guys here have done the same thing:

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies.htm

The sole purpose of this website is to out frauds and they will check into the backgrounds of folks claiming to be something they weren't or something they didn't earn. Just look at it, it demonstrates how far people will go to be something they are not.

[Guest bunk22]

This character here does airshow circuits. He wore wings of gold for years but was outed at some point. His name is Allen Smith. This has nothing to do with you Whiterock so please don't read anything into it, I've just drifted into the subject.

Claims he was a Naval Aviator flying A-6s on two combat tours with VA-35 in the Vietnam War and was shot down once. He has allegedly forged documents and staged/altered photographs of himself to support these bogus claims. He was on a civilian contract to fly L-39s at the United States Naval Test Pilot School, NAS Pax River Md. when he made the mistake of making the bogus claims to some REAL intruder pilots. After they did some preliminary checking they notified NCIS and a full investigation was done. The result was that he never attended flight school with the Navy much less flew A-6 Intruders in any capacity. What they did find was that his fakery went beyond the norm in that he had forged DOD documents and altered pictures at his home in the Philadelphia, Pa area. He was thrown out of Pax River and his contract cancelled. His charade continues at civilian and military airshows on the east coast. He did modify his claims on his website, http://www.allens-airshows.com/ somewhat... . He has been asked (forcefully ) by real military pilots past and present to cease and desist but continues the charade ie the NAS Oceana Airshow this past Sept/2006.His claims were also put in print in the latst issue of World Airshow News ( Dec 2006).

The worst thing is an article that Smith wrote about 5 years ago for one of the air show magazines in which he detailed his shoot-down over NVN and his escape to the coast and subsequent rescue. It was shameful.

[Guest Brewdog]

Bunk,

It's amazing how far military posers are able to get with their BS. One guy claiming to be a Vietnam era SEAL even landed himself a job as the head of a department at a major college. There's a pretty active group of former SEALs that go around exposing fakes and the list of people they have busted is so long it's truly sickening, especially the fags that hang out at The Wall sporting berets and associated flair. I forget the URL but I'm sure you can google it up fairly quickly.

*Note: not accusing anyone here, I got no dog in this fight. <insert witty Micheal Vick comment here.>

[Guest Scribe]

Bunk,

There's a pretty active group of former SEALs that go around exposing fakes and the list of people they have busted is so long it's truly sickening, especially the fags that hang out at The Wall sporting berets and associated flair. I forget the URL but I'm sure you can google it up fairly quickly.

Go here and scroll to 3rd article. it's almost an epidemic.

[Guest Scribe]

This character here does airshow circuits. He wore wings of gold for years but was outed at some point. His name is Allen Smith. This has nothing to do with you Whiterock so please don't read anything into it, I've just drifted into the subject.

Claims he was a Naval Aviator flying A-6s on two combat tours with VA-35 in the Vietnam War and was shot down once. He has allegedly forged documents and staged/altered photographs of himself to support these bogus claims. He was on a civilian contract to fly L-39s at the United States Naval Test Pilot School, NAS Pax River Md. when he made the mistake of making the bogus claims to some REAL intruder pilots. After they did some preliminary checking they notified NCIS and a full investigation was done. The result was that he never attended flight school with the Navy much less flew A-6 Intruders in any capacity. What they did find was that his fakery went beyond the norm in that he had forged DOD documents and altered pictures at his home in the Philadelphia, Pa area.

OMG - I went to the link and they have this obviously altered picture that anyone who's flown off a carrier would easily spot as a fake

I don't see it on his website, but he obviously staged it. Maybe it's one he pulled after Navy got after him. What's wrong with it (for you zoomies)? Each carrier based squadron decorates the "00" MODEX aircraft with the Air Wing Commander's (traditionally called the CAG who is an 0-6) name so no way a lowly LT would have his name on aircraft "500" and this aircraft is a static display Intruder near his home in Philadelphia. A-6 purists will also note that nobody climbs the ladder with canopy closed (but that's how it is on display). He also looks mighty old for a LT, don't you think?

[Guest Whiterock]

I don't know how well my 34 year old b&w will show, but I'll give it a shot. Haven't thought about Jack--visited him at the Wolfpack in ~ Sep of '73 at his squadron down at Ubon. We were picking up a bird that em diverted there, took a chance, and Jack was there, in years.

To answer the 'work suit,' which I'm wearing in both pics--this one taken by a friend to send home, it was a cotton jumpsuit made by "The Thief" in downtown Udorn. We wore them when not flying--MUCH cooler than a flight suit. Those were the only two uniforms we, at least at Udorn, wore--except for the party suits when we had a cocktail or two at the party hooch. The side walks are all wood there, and streams--called Klongs, ran everywhere. Not unusual after heavy rain to see cobras flowing down them. When we kicked off the chutes at the de-arm off the active, the guys picking up the chutes used long sticks to make sure no little buddies were curled up in them. The heat from the exhaust kicking the dragchutes made them warmer, or higher infrared or something, so cobras made for them to have a nap. I was lighing a cigarette at Jungle Survival School at Clark looking at a cobra sleeping in a glass case. He struck at the flame from my Bic! Of course, this didn't scare the **** out of me or anything.. Anyway, this is what your grandfathers looked like back in the day. Forgive the nostalgia.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Whiterock