DirkDiggler
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Posts posted by DirkDiggler
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3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:
Nearly everybody on this forum has used the words "if true" or some derivation, and no one said we should bypass his right to a fair trial. Your arguments don't require strawmen to be true.
Further, there's no requirement to wait until the trial has been conducted to speculate, since none of us are going to be investigating him. Especially with politics. Politicians (and Milley is probably more of a politician than he is a soldier at this point) act very predictably. One thing they almost never do is allow a false story to float without an outright denial. Think Hunter Biden and his laptop.
As I've said repeatedly, I don't trust Woodward as far as I can throw him. However if the journalist is famous as Bob Woodward makes a claim about a politician, and the politician doesn't issue a denial, it's time to pay close attention.
There are also some fairly high profile rebukes coming out that I don't believe would occur without some behind the scenes validating. Christopher Miller is one such example.
Honestly looking at Milley, a cartoon character of what a military General should be, I'm not at all surprised that he did it, and had the chutzpa to brag about it to a journalist. It seems like a lot of these "dissidents" from the conservative wing get a taste of media adulation for some "heroic" act against the great orange vulgarian and they quickly forget that they are still enemies to the left and will not be forgiven for their unacceptable wrong-think.
I'll concede that your first statement is mostly accurate; looking back, most people on this forum did caveat things with "if true" or something to that effect.
Since we're speculating, to your second point, predictability is the is one of the reasons I'm very skeptical about the allegations contained in this latest book. Most 3-4 star generals are politicians or at least very politically savvy once they get to that level, it's how they got there in the first place. In my experience, all the generals I've been around or worked with at that level invoke CYA in almost everything they do and say (I think they take a class in it prior to pinning on that third star). Slight derail, as I understand it (I've never done a puzzle palace tour thankfully) it used to be the JCS was actually one leadership level where this wasn't always true, since once you've made JCS or CJCS you've hit the ceiling, there's no where else to go. My buddies up in the Pentagon have told me that dynamic changed appreciably once Mattis was made SECDEF; several generals now had the attitude that they were still potentially upwardly mobile and started acting as such, but I digress.
I find it very difficult to believe that Milley told the Chinese he'd give them a heads up before the US attacked or that he made other officers swear an oath to him regarding the use of nuclear weapons because if he did those things too many people are/were in the know and as has been stated on this forum, those are illegal acts that would result in UCMJ actions. If the people in the room for those calls or the officers he allegedly made swear an oath get hauled in front of Congress, the IG, or a courts martial, they're not going to fall on their swords for the good general. He'd be proper fucked and he's smart enough to know that.
Another thing to consider, at least regarding the timing of the first call. What if Trump had won the election? I find it very difficult (though not impossible, as I said I'll be interested in what he says to Congress on the 28th) to believe that Milley would take such actions or say such things knowing the guy he allegedly is conspiring against might still be his boss. Trump sure as shit wasn't going to give him a pardon or be forgiving about it. To be clear, I'm not arguing that Milley didn't do and say these things because of his honorable character, I'm saying I think it's very unlikely because he's a political creature.
On the Chris Miller denial point in particular, we'll have to agree to disagree. In a follow up to his statement to Fox about the phone calls, he told Politico, despite his pretty forceful rebuke:
"I imagine there was a perfunctory exchange between us and our staffs about coordinating phone calls and messages for the day.”
“I don’t recall the specifics, and it certainly wasn’t in a detailed or more formal way," he added. "It was more perfunctory/routine.”
Always have an out/CYA.
Also, the guy was in the seat as SECDEF for 53 days; before that he was ASD/SOLIC for only 3 months. In most staff gigs it takes a min 4-6 weeks to get your head wrapped around the day-in/out basics. At the time of the second phone call, he was two days removed from the storming of the capital debacle and he also was working to catch up on the transition to the Biden administration, which had been delayed due to Trump's refusal to concede the election results. My guess (once again I'm speculating) is that his office had been advised of the call and that he had other things going on.
FWIW, I think at minimum McKenzie and Milley should resign over how the Afghan withdrawal was conducted, I'm just not fired up over this story unless more corroborating facts come out. My personal take on this right now is that it smells of the 10% truth rule on Friday night stories at the squadron bar.
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8 minutes ago, torqued said:
That's a compromise I'm sure a lot of people would be willing to make. Is J&J authorized to meet the mandate requirement?
Any of the vaccines meet the mandate requirement; DoD can only force you to take Pfizer since that’s the only FDA approved one. Got two guys in my class that got the J&J off base and they’re green as far the military is concerned.
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18 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:
Why would they wing someone right before administratively separating them? I'd be surprised.
Don’t know, honestly think it could be Wg/CC and timing dependent but I’m speculating, the email didn’t go into any more specifics. I also don’t have even close to the full story on this so any guess I make as to 19th/AF and AETC’s actions would be just a guess.
Personal opinion, if the guy completed the syllabus, was just waiting on graduation and I was wing king I’d let him wing with his class; I wouldn’t see that as being tied to the vaccine refusal.
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6 minutes ago, jazzdude said:
He hasn't been winged yet, so the AF could opt to not wing him and deny him the pilot aeronautical rating, which means no mil-comp for commercial/instrument ratings.
Best case for him is the system is slow and he wings. Worst case is what I have above. Most likely is being put on admin hold and rolling a class or two while the commanders figure out what to do.According to the 19th AF/CC guidance we got in an email last week, said individual WILL be put on administrative hold pending a determination of his/her future in the service. Whether the Bobs ultimately decide to wing him/her since according to the source he/she is syllabus complete I honestly couldn't say.
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7 minutes ago, torqued said:
Seems like there's no end to the dysfunction.
A quote from your link:
"All calls from the Chairman to his counterparts, including those reported, are staffed, coordinated and communicated with the Department of Defense and the interagency," Butler said.
And now this:
EXCLUSIVE: Former acting Secretary of Defense Christopher Miller, who led the Pentagon from the period after the 2020 election through Inauguration Day, said that he "did not and would not ever authorize" Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley to have "secret" calls with his Chinese counterpart, describing the allegations as a "disgraceful and unprecedented act of insubordination," and calling on him to resign "immediately."
In a statement to Fox News, Miller said that the United States Armed Forces, from its inception, has "operated under the inviolable principle of civilian control of the military."
So who’s telling the truth?
Edited to add: the news article in question has Fox quoting “sources” that said the calls were not secret, and that there were multiple people in the room including notetakers, State and DoD reps.
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7 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:
There is a LOT of spin going on. Jennifer Griffin has always been a straight shooter, used to see her in five sided building all the time. So far she is just reporting what they are telling her on the Jt Staff. This requires a MUCH deeper look.
What is VERY clear is Milley is the source for at least part of Woodward's book...he was trying to make himself look good (perhaps set up for his next career move), and now it has backfired on him.
The part with Pelosi is equally troubling.
For all the political theater around Trump trying to keep power, at least form a perception standpoint, it appears a lot of others were actually trying to take power.
Agreed that there's a lot of spin going on.....from both sides. Last time I checked, even in the military justice system, someone is innocent until proven guilty. There's a lot of people out in the media and on this forum that are "raging for justice, throw him in prison, execute him!!" before all the facts are in. Maybe Milley did something illegal, maybe not. If Senator Cotton is to be believed, he's going to ask Milley in front of Congress in the next couple days. I'm willing to wait until more data is in before passing judgement over this issue.
I haven't read the book (or any of Woodward's books for that matter), so it's difficult for me to definitively say or have an opinion that Milley was a primary source; I know you spent time up in the puzzle palace so assuming you'd have more insight into the goings on internal to that building.
The most amusing thing to me about this whole story/situation is the different spin from the right and the left. Woodward's previous books on the Trump administration were pretty heavily denied/disparaged across the right leaning media because they didn't paint the administration in a favorable light. The left leaning media loved those books for the same reason. Now along comes the final chapter and people on both sides of the divide are are taking the words in said book as the god's honest truth, but for vastly different reasons.
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1 hour ago, Pooter said:
What goalposts exactly? Throughout all of these discussions I have maintained the same exact points.
1. the vaccine is safe and effective and no one so far has provided convincing evidence to the contrary. To include your and @torqued's statistically illiterate flailing.
2. While I think it's a very bad plan to pass on the vaccine, getting the shot should be entirely your choice unless you voluntarily surrendered some of your medical autonomy by joining the military.
My suggestion, stick to what you're good at and keep posting your tangential Alex Jones-esque rants with a healthy side of racial slurs.
If you could do me the favor of not quoting that Martian I'd appreciate it; it keeps the threads more coherent and you're quoting him complicates my blocking the garbage he posts.
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https://www.foxnews.com/politics/milley-chinese-counterpart-phone-calls-senate-testimony
I would encourage everyone to read the entire article above and not just the headline. If you believe Fox News reporting, then it doesn't seem like the accounts in Woodward's book are 100% accurate to say the least.
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Glad they're all ok!
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3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:
Found General Chang
It helps a lot to go under user settings and just block seeing his posts; keeps all these threads more coherent. Also, if I could ask a favor, try not to quote that Martian, it complicates my own efforts to not see the garbage he posts.
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3 hours ago, BrightNeptune said:
The latter. The mission broke me and I'm done. I've participated directly in ending many lives for no purpose. Those people could still be alive and there would be no difference. Who knows if they were even bad people. Showing up overhead just to waste a random dude that is no threat to you, your family, or your country takes it toll after you have been doing it for years on end.
You know the flashback scene in the third Bourne movie with Jason, his trainer, and a dude in the corner with a hood over his head and handcuffs? Jason was told to pick up the gun and shoot him. The trainer would not answer any questions. I picked up that gun and shot many people and watched them bleed out live and in high definition. I can't do that anymore. (No, I did not "fly" a drone, I was there overhead)
I'm pretty much at the end of my UPT ADSC and want out ASAP before these idiots in charge find a new way to sacrifice my life in order to give them a bullet on their next OPR.
I have yet to be convinced I need the vaccine, either. If I was a free man I would not get it until I am convinced that it will benefit me. I'm not a free man and there is now a gun to my head, so I guess I will be getting it shortly.
Fair enough, as a mobility guy I can't say I directly understand your struggles; I have helped carry an unfortunate amount of dead American SOF off the back of my airplane over the years and I'd be lying if I said that the last three weeks of events in Afghanistan have been easy for me to process either. If you ever need someone to vent to please feel free to DM, I sincerely wish you the best wherever you land.
Unsolicited advice that you're free to disregard/ignore; don't end your time in the AF on a General or other than honorable discharge. I think you'd regret it in the long run.
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18 minutes ago, torqued said:
You would think, but who will do the firing?
At this point, I think we should consider the facts:
- He usurped the sacrosanct authority our civilian government should always have over our military
- He sidestepped the chain of command and contacted a strategic enemy's military leadership directly to cconspire in relaying information regarding our national defense and DEFCON status.
There should be at the very minimum, a nationally televised joint congressional hearing followed by an indictment and trial.
But that's likely not going to happen.
Also, I have to ask, do you 100% believe (you said these are facts) all the reporting in that book? I generally take insider reports I see on sites like Fox and CNN with a grain of salt. Woodward’s last two books on the Trump presidency were pretty heavily denied up and down the Trump administration. And if you do believe the parts about Milley, do you also believe everything written about the Trump administration in those books?
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10 minutes ago, GrndPndr said:
We could debate about whether Nixon was depressed over the end of Vietnam, I'm pretty sure he wasn't wired that way. Publicly, he felt that he was the good guy for drawing down the number of ground forces and ending things (such as it was).
That's fair, and to be honest, will probably never be known with certainty; his mood at the time was most likely due to a number of factors (obviously Watergate and the impending resignation played heavily). My previous post was not intended to state that Nixon's mood in Jul-Aug '74 was based solely on Vietnam, apologies if it came off that way.
Lotta interesting things/claims came out in the early 2000s about Nixon regarding the amount of alcohol he was consuming and reported claims that he was taking Dilantin. Since he's long dead and different aides have made completely contradictory claims the truth probably never be know for certain. Apologies for the minor thread derail.
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47 minutes ago, torqued said:
If you haven't read Strauss and Howe's book The Fourth Turning, do it. It explains the Crisis of Trust. We're experiencing it on every level, top to bottom, at nearly every institution. It doesn't end well.
Gen Milley held a secret Pentagon staff meeting and told them not to take orders from President Trump in a nuclear emergency. He called China to tell them he wouldn't allow an attack.
"Milley took extraordinary action, and called a secret meeting in his Pentagon office on January 8 to review the process for military action, including launching nuclear weapons. Speaking to senior military officials in charge of the National Military Command Center, the Pentagon's war room, Milley instructed them not to take orders from anyone unless he was involved."No matter what you are told, you do the procedure. You do the process. And I'm part of that procedure," Milley told the officers, according to the book. He then went around the room, looked each officer in the eye, and asked them to verbally confirm they understood."Got it?" Milley asked, according to the book."Yes, sir."'Milley considered it an oath,' the authors write.
Actually not the first time something like has happened since the dawn of the nuclear age. Nixon's SecDef (James Schlesinger) reportedly gave military commanders similar orders in the waning days of the Nixon presidency after Nixon was drinking heavily, seemed depressed, had recently lost the Vietnam War, and was openly talking about his ability to initiate nuclear war on calls with senators.
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Interesting report discussing the future of US foreign policy post Afghan withdrawal.
https://www.csis.org/analysis/restoring-momentum-us-foreign-policy-wake-afghanistan
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https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2021-09-13/chinas-afghanistan-dilemma
Pretty good article discussing the challenges China will face regarding Afghanistan. I found the part about China facing several areas of instability or challenges along multiple borders to be particularly thought provoking.
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9 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:
On the enlisted side if you get a General Under Honorable discharge during your first enlistment, you lose your G.I. Bill. Now sure how that would play out for officers?
As I understand it, you lose some of of it but can still retain some as well. I only have second hand experience with this aspect of a General Under Honorable so I honestly don't know all the details. BLUF is that there's definitely some penalties for not completing your enlistment.
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23 minutes ago, Breckey said:
Now that the Afghanistan is over, does anybody think the 2001 and 2003 AUMFs will be repealed? AUMF reform is desperately needed so Congress can actually take some responsibility and actually vote for committing US forces to conflicts rather than abdicating all of the responsibility onto the Executive. Something that I learned from the below podcast was that the 1991 AUMF is technically still in effect and was used in part as the legal basis for committing forces to OIR in 2014.
The Lawfare Podcast: AUMF Reform After Afghanistan - Lawfare (lawfareblog.com)They absolutely should be repealed or at the very least renewed but they won't be. Right now Congress gets to have their cake and eat it too. They can argue either for or against the use of military force without having to actually go on record to vote for or against sending their constituents and said constituents' sons and daughters to war. A good majority of them rail against federal overreach and the expanding powers of the Executive branch but are unwilling to put their money where their mouth is when it comes to voting to go to war.
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7 minutes ago, BrightNeptune said:
If I could use this as an excuse to get out under honorable I would do it tomorrow. If I could do honorable and get non-vol sep pay, I would have done it yesterday.
Copy. Like I said, I'm speculating but my guess is whatever discharge the military gives for this will not be a straight honorable discharge because of the nature (refusing a direct order) and to be quite honest the UCMJ is on their side.
If you don't mind me asking, do you want to get out because of the mandatory COVID vaccine or did you want to get out anyway and this just presents an opportunity to do so?
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1 hour ago, BrightNeptune said:
What are the details of that separation?
Non-voluntary separation with the pay that goes with it? Honorable discharge? ADSCs removed?
Email didn't say and I would guess the Bobs are still working those details out.
My personal guess (disclaimer, I'm speculating) is it would be a General Discharge under Honorable conditions but I wouldn't rule out an Other Than Honorable depending on how the Bobs take a failure to follow a direct order (if there's any JAGs on here they'd have a better idea). I don't know on the non-voluntary separation pay (my gut feeling is that would be a no due to the circumstances of the discharge but I could be wrong). If you were discharged over this your ADSC would be removed.
After the Anthrax shot legal challenge ended my community had an individual refuse a direct order from the Sq/CC to take that vaccine; it didn't go well for him. He was close to retirement and was ultimately allowed to retire, but that was the only positive for said individual.
I've said it before but if this is your hill I understand, it's your choice, just be ready to die on it. All decisions have consequences. The military isn't going to fuck around with people who refuse a direct order. Barring some legal challenge that halts COVID vaccinations across the DoD you're going to have to make a decision. And even then, after the several years it takes the case to work it's way through the courts, the DoD is probably going to prevail and you'll still be faced with the same decision several years later, possibly when you have more invested in the military.
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6 hours ago, pawnman said:
I didn't get a text message from SECDEF...any of you get a text message?
I did, but it was something about my car’s warranty being expired so I didn’t text him back.
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7 hours ago, torqued said:
I keep seeing reports of significant numbers of USAF pilots and crew quitting over the vax, but can't find the source. There's likely not going to be an official statement regarding such.
Specifically, at Langley F-22 and Barksdale B-52 squadrons. I have my doubts, but I personally know 4-5 guard pilots who plan to make it known that they're retiring during tomorrow's drill.
True or False?
In my personal corner of the AF (AFSOC) my squadron was sitting at over 85% vaccinated before it was mandatory. I do not know nor have I heard of anyone that’s planning to get out or request an exemption.
I’m currently in an AETC MC-J transition course; yesterday we got an email saying the 19th AF/CC has dictated that any student in formal training that plans on requesting a COVID exemption will immediately be placed in an administrative hold status (frozen in training) until the exemption is processed and approved/disapproved; it went on to give a gist of if disapproved and the individual still refuses the shot they’ll be administratively separated from the service.
If this truly is your sword make sure you’re ready to fall on it…
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17 hours ago, lufty said:
Long time lurker. Gonna retire in a couple years as a MSgt, been a flyer (eng and boom) my whole career, and thought I could get a sanity check from some dudes just like those I've spent almost 22 years flying with. I'm realizing more and more that I'm really going to miss flying and being around airplanes, so I'm seriously considering putting myself through pilot training when I retire. Cost aside (6 figures, I imagine), I'm wondering what those of you flying the line think the landscape will look like in 5 years with regards to hiring trends and an elderly guy like me trying to make it after I somehow scratch together another 1490 hours.
I have no grand aspirations to be in the newest shiniest jets at a major, but how realistic is this? All my pilot buddies that are always scratching for that extra .1 on a 781 is enough to put me in my place...if they're worried about getting picked up, I shouldn't even bother. On the other hand, everything I hate about the AF is what my current future looks like (politics, office work, middle management, 40 hr clock watching, ugghhh).
My community had a SMSgt FE retire about 3-4 years ago; he had his Private/Instrument rating complete when he punched. He knocked out his Commercial/CFI/CFII/MEI fairly quickly, instructed for a little bit, and is now flying for PSA I believe. BLUF is it's definitely doable. Good luck!
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4 hours ago, BrightNeptune said:
I, too, was ordered by my commander to get the shot on the 17th. He asked if I was going to fight it or ask for a religious exemption. He said he did not know what the penalties were for refusing. I was not wearing a mask while he was telling me this. He was not wearing a mask while telling me this. We both know this is a complete joke. He said he hated that he had to tell me this.
Does anyone know what the penalties are?
Would it be silly to request a written order?
I said I would only do it if I was directly ordered.
The fact that you and your commander think this COVID vaccination order is a complete joke is irrelevant. You've already been given a direct, lawful order by the SECDEF (MFR which was in writing) that all DoD personnel will get the COVID vaccination. Asking for a written order from your direct CC will not alter the above fact. Your choices are:
1. Get the vaccine.
2. Refuse a direct order and open yourself up to NJP in the form of I'd guess at least an LOR or Article 15, eventually leading to a discharge from the service.
3. Claim a religious exemption (honestly don't know the process for this or how it works) and see if it's approved. If not, you're back to options 1&2.
4. Separate from the military. Understand that even if this is an option for you and you choose it your commander can and probably will still have to give you NJP while you're in the process of separating.
Covid Injection Tyranny - Share and Discuss
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