Rusty Pipes

^^^ THIS

Yup... and there are lots of parts to that machine. Seems to me that we spend lots of time waxing/polishing the hood to make sure we look good (AADs, PME in COR, inflated OPRs), but completely ignore what is under the hood (Being good at your primary job, family life, actual leadership). Very few young pilots are looking towards the 2 BPZ Intern Sq CC for mentorship... they are looking at that crusty Maj or Lt Col crew dawg. They are also taking a very close look at how those crusty old guys are treated by "the machine". Big Blue hasn't treated them very well over the past few years and the VSP/RIF fiasco for the mid level guys only made things worse. You want to tell the "leadership" in DC how they can help things get better with retention for pilots? Stop making pilots feel like they have to apologize for wanting to actually be a pilot and for wanting to be good at it. Stop making every pilot feel they have to lie to their boss by pretending they want to be the CSAF or their career will be over as a Capt. Stop associating crew position with promotion (gotta send him to IP school because his PRF is coming up). Just to name a few... How about this... US Air?!? Better??? Once again... completely missing the point!

Curious as to what has led to the sudden trolling on here by General Chang and Liquid... especially on the PRF/Promotion and Bonus threads? Interesting to hear the perspective, but you guys are obviously not crew dawgs sitting in crew rest at the Deid... especially if Liquid is higher up than you are.

Hmmm... that's a complete 180 from what I am seeing/have seen. Are these young guys volunteering for RPAs from the C-17? I was in Vegas a few months ago at a buddy's house who was a C-17 RPA guy... he was looking to sign the bonus, but my other 3 C-17 buds who were there had all already put in their paperwork to separate the first day they could. I had another 3 friends at CHS alone on this last assignment cycle who 7 day opted when the RPA assignment dropped (I know at least one for sure was to the Forks). They all just went next door to the Res. Maybe there were guys waiting in the wings to jump on it. Maybe some guys sitting at TCM or CHS right now can chime in on this one, but this is the first I have heard from anyone that there is a line forming to get the dream shot of an RPA to Cannon or the Forks (no offense to my RPA brothers and sisters out there).

Not being a jackass here, but when 90% of the pilots are sitting in an assignment at a location where the senior ranking guy on Base is an O-6... I'm pretty sure they consider an O-9 who is in charge of them to be AF senior leadership. The very unfortunate part of this is that he apparently had some significant influence on the thought process of those down the line because I've had conversations with multiple people in command positions (Wing, Gp, Sq) who echoed his thoughts (luckily recently retired). I had a conversation with my OG/CC (great guy) 2 yrs ago about non-voling guys to RPAs and he said, "What are they going to do, quit? It’s not like Delta is hiring!" Guess what... Delta is hiring and so are the Reserves! Someone has the numbers at AFPC and the Pentagon... are you seeing an increase in the number of guys dropping papers when the Sq CC hands them the RPA RIP or tells them they got tagged for the 365? I can only speak of guys I know personally who jumped ship recently in that situation and from stories from Sq CC buddies. Is this being looked at from above or is it something they will react to with the FY14 Bonus (or dare I even mention the dreaded term Stop Loss)?

Not to throw spears; this is great insight from someone sitting in the puzzle palace with a "Big Blue" perspective and it is very appreciated... but this statement and thought process is the exact reason we lose the best guys in the Air Force. Telling a bunch of guys who have spent the last 10+ years fighting two wars, non-stop deployments and trying to balance watching their kids grow up (if they aren't divorced) with arbitrary "promotion requirements" that essentially, "you're lucky to be here and should be grateful" is probably not the best retention policy. Maybe that is intentional, but it sure doesn't help to raise the morale of your crew force. Crew dawgs are going to bitch, it’s part of the job description... but it isn't by happenstance that we are in this situation. I get there are lots of really smart people at the Pentagon and at AFPC who are looking at realism and "the big picture"... on the other hand for the past 5-10 yrs there was that same level of smart people in these same jobs who obviously got it wrong which has put us in the situation we are currently in. I've sat in the room with the 3 Star within the past 2-3 yrs who said that if pilots want to complain that they can quit and they will easily be replaced. Seems he got the quitting part right... not so sure he got the "should be grateful with hat in hand" part right though because it doesn't look like they will be so easy to relpace (especially those 11Fs).

How can you call it an "unscheduled glut" of FGOs as 11Ms when the AF recalled scores of FGO 11Ms back through the return to AD program? We had retired and Res recalled O-5's all over the place... many of which are still around. I know they signed what amounted to limited contracts, but it certainly wasn't unscheduled. Apparently someone thought we needed FGO 11Ms...

I know several guys who were in this boat. They had already reclama’d an assignment last year, not showing their cards by just asking to stay for a 4th year. When the assignments came around in the winter for summer moves the AF didn't give them very good options. Their choice should have been to take the assignment along with the bonus, take the assignment with just the two year ADSC for the PCS or drop their papers. I have no idea how many would have stayed had the bonus option been available last Fall at the beginning of the FY, but the AF certainly didn't help themselves by not providing that option. Most of the guys who got out just walked across the street to the Res Sq and changed patches... so the AF didn't really completely lose them, but AD certainly ended up bleeding out a lot of experience/talent by not even giving them a decent reason to stay. What kills me is the prior E's not being eligible due to the 16 yr eligibility. Lots of talent that very well may have stayed to 24-25 yrs with a bonus. The late rated guys (yes, I'm one of them) who had bad timing; well it just sucks, but I get it from a financial point of view for the AF because very few will bail at 16+ yrs. But if they really are worried about a pilot shortage and budget they are going to make out a lot better giving the bonus to the prior E with 19 yrs in than they do to all my buds who just signed the bonus last year or this year that will spend 4 of those 5 bonus years at Maxwell and then Staff. Just like the late rate guys... they vast majority of those guys were probably going to stay anyway. Career pilot track... that's the way to go if you ask me! Works out well for the Brits (at least that is what our exchange guys have always said anyway).

It will be interesting to see in a year what those numbers look like for your class and what the Bonus take rate was. I went to a wedding for a buddy last summer with several guys from my UPT Class and I'd say our class numbers were similar to what you said above. The RPA guys that were there were very vocal about saying they were getting out, but I was pretty shocked to talk to guys 6 months later to hear who dropped papers. I wonder if the Bonus was available last Fall for the start of the FY if they would have got more from my class to stay.

OK... fair enough, who wouldn't be pissed about losing out on $125,000 because of a technicality? But emotions aside, the AF is not looking at the big picture as much as they try to preach it from on high. Not only is there a pilot shortage (especially with 11Fs), there is also a sudden huge experience shortage that is a huge sucker punch in the face of every MWS that is not being seriously considered... no matter what you fly, guys are jumping ship left and right! Unless everyone is lying here, retention is not very high these days in any airframe! The number of guys who are late rated/prior Es and at 16 yrs and a day as of 30 Sep that lost out because of this random technicality most likely aren't going to punch and those numbers are pretty small, but what is the real goal here? Do we want our most experienced pilots to stay or not? The guy who did 4 yrs as a boom or loadmaster, got his degree at night then went to OTS and UPT who now happens to be a 4 Ship Flight Lead or a C-17 SOLL II EP... does the AF want to lose the experience of this guy who now has 19-20 yrs in and no real incentive to stay? This isn't some random scenario... my three prior E buds from UPT (all 11Ms and all EP/IPs) dropped their papers since Monday because they were not eligible for the Bonus. The two I personally talked to said they would have gladly stayed for another 5 yrs for $125K. $25K a year to keep these guys is a drop in the bucket compared to what it will cost the AF to replace them. 5 yrs ago there were very few guys jumping ship at the 11-12 yr point because there were no other options when their ADSC was up... how many are getting out now? I think there were 26 of us who graduated from my UPT class... as of last Friday there were only 7 left on AD and 3 just dropped their papers. Would be interesting to know if this is an anomaly, but only 4 left of 26 within less than a year of ADSC expiration doesn't bode well for our pilot force.

Pretty sure I said guys who were there for 6 to 9 years, so "any more" has nothing to do with it... My mistake... "F-22s, F-35s, KC-10s, C-17s for everyone!" You completely missed the point... Yup... can still say I've lucked out so far considering I know a few dozen guys who were non-continued or RIF'd in the past year or two, but still stand by my :flipoff: to Big Blue for not getting their shit together and taking away the option of guys in this position to take a Bonus if they wanted it by not releasing the FY13 Bonus until 9 months into the year and then coming up with an arbitrary date of 30 Sept for eligibility. Do they want to keep pilots or not? Showing the guys that they want to keep for another 9 years that they have no problem giving the middle digit to guys who have been in for 15-16 yrs should tell you something... depending on how much Kool Aid you have drank. Maybe you should enlighten us with your vast experience prior to trolling here! Sounds like you have a Change of Command to plan or Christmas Party to volunteer for...

Ha! I've actually lucked out so far and you have no idea what my story is, but I have seen WAY too many great dudes who have checked every box, played the game and been good little Airmen only to get a size 15 boot in the junk from Big Blue for their troubles. Good luck to all those guys who decide to take them up on the offer... I really hope it works out the way you hope it will for you and your family. Just saying don't be surprised when Lucy pulls away the football again!

Hmmm... let's see, we had a CSAF and a SecAF fired because they thought F-22s were more important than UAVs. We have current UAV pilots bailing ASAFP when their ADSC is up (anecdotal, but 5 of 8 guys in my UPT class in 38s who ended up 11F got stuck in UAVs and all 5 are no longer on AD pulling chalks the first day they could). We have a POTUS who has no interest in being anywhere near the Middle East, but sure does love putting hellfire's up the asses of bad guys who live there. Guys who fly planes with 3 or more engines are not only making the owners of ALL ATP's and Higher Power wonder why everyone is talking about a bad economy... they are also making their MAF Sq CC's lives miserable by dropping papers before they can get to the first vowel of the words "Creech or Cannon". Yeah, if I were you I'd be betting on those orders to Eglin for F-35 school instead of a UAV after signing that paperwork... good luck with that! BTW... those who are now eligible for the bonus started UPT just months after 9/11. If you told all those who spent a year or two as an 11F and ended up non-vol'd to Creech for the next 6-9 yrs that was going to happen do you think they would have all been jumping at the chance to take that pilot slot? You're right, nobody knows what will happen in the next few years... but I'll bet you $225,000 that you won't hear the CSAF or AFPC anytime soon saying, "Thank God that mess is over... F-22s and F-35s for everyone!!!"

Does any 11F who is considering signing a 9 year bonus honestly think there is the slightest chance in hell that they will be flying a fighter (or anything with an actual cockpit) 9 years from now? Just remember that as soon as you sign that paperwork you just became the guy who can't say no... FOR 9 YEARS!!! Signing a 9 year bonus to be part of some new "career pilot" type program would be very tempting to many, but signing up for 9 years of complete uncertainty, especially after all the RIF, VSP, non-continuation BS in the past 2 years has got to be one of the craziest things I've heard of in my career!!!

Complete misnomer... The sawdust and chicken bones numbers they have makes it look that way (overmanned), but reality is much different. So many units are not given credit for mandatory taskings of crews, especially taskings that often overlap (multiple simultaneous alerts, msns that require augmented AR crews, etc). Not to mention the fact that units have been continuously tasked well over 100% of their crew manning since 2002 with OEF kicking in full gear. I have buds who are AMC Sq CC's and Dep OGs that say they are already getting crushed by so many experienced pilots bailing for the Res/ANG when they get orders in the past year in anticipation of airline hirings and they know this is just the tip of the iceberg... the flood gates have yet to open and nobody is listening when they voice their concerns to leadership/AFPC. Retooling bonuses for 11M's... they are about 2-3 yrs behind the power curve on that one already!

I moved to a new assignment in the Spring of 2007 to a Base that was remodeling it's base housing, so the wait list to live on Base was over a year. Because of that fact the rental market in the area was essentially non-existent (other than living in a double wide... not joking). There were about 25 of us who PCS'd in around the same time with the only option being buying a house or commuting over an hour each way to work. I would have loved to have been able to rent a house, but I wasn't about to put my family in a neighborhood full or crack houses and rotating meth labs. 2 or 3 guys did short sales since, but aside from that the rest of us are landlords paying about $500 a month out of pocket because none of us qualified for HAP, etc. I know scores and scores of guys in this exact same boat... not sure I'd be throwing stones at the new guy here!

The two best IP/EPs I've ever had were passed over Majs who are both still legends in my community... and two of the best leaders I've seen in my AF career. No doubt that those in this situation will still be good IP/EPs tomorrow, but before today I wouldn't let any negative experiences in my career influence the guys I have flown with. At this point I feel like I owe it to these guys to let them know the possible consequences are of staying one day past their ADSC vs pulling chalks and walking next door to the ANG or RES Squadron who will most certainly be welcoming them with open arms in the next few years. I'd love to be able to tell these young kids that if you work hard and are the best pilot you can be that things will work out, but Big Blue almost seems to be going out of its way to prove that they don't give a shit about those who actually want to be good at their job... its seriously depressing.

I get that, but they could have had a relatively motivated EP for the next 5 yrs that would have been a great mentor for some young new co-pilots. Instead they chose to go with the pissed off EP who will spend the next 3 yrs encouraging every mid-level Capt and young Major to get out of AD ASAFP with endless stories of how Big Blue will screw them over. They also could have kept 3 more EPs for another 5 yrs (my prior E buddies past 20 yrs) with invaluable experience. To be honest I'm not sure if I would sign it right now if I had the option, but for guys in either of these positions Big Blue just screwed themselves. I may have stayed an extra year or two on AD, but as of today I'm already counting the days to hit 20.

:flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: Thanks Big Blue!!! Can't wait to see you scramble when all the AMC guys bail on you in the next year or two!!! If they could have had their shit together and just kept the bonus the same as it was then I could have signed it 6+ months ago when my ADSC was up... but since they are complete morons I am now past 16 yrs (late rated) and just lost $125K!!! What does 16 yrs as of 30 Sept have to do with anything??? We had 5 late rated or prior enlisted guys in my UPT class who are all still in flying now. The 3 prior enlisted have 20 yrs in already (or within a few months)... all 3 said they were going to sign the bonus if they could... all 3 have already told me since just this afternoon they will be putting in their separation paperwork tomorrow. Leave it to Big Blue to ###### up something this simple!!!

So did the late rated guys always get a giant kick to the junk on the bonus or is this new this year?

The jet was being flown "out of configuration"... there were no numbers or charts anywhere for what he was doing which is why I stated above that he was basically acting as a test pilot. They may have tried what he did in the test phase, but what he was doing was not part of any standard flight profile for a C-17.

http://news.yahoo.com/disney-world-patron-finds-gun-ride-204422359.html Hey Honey, the car is packed for Disney World... did you remember your Glock?

During a C-17 Airshow Demo profile is not the best time to declare yourself a test pilot, which is what he essentially did. He was a really good pilot with a great reputation in the community (certainly no Bud Holland as he is often wrongfully compared to), but he should have known better. Not to mention the fact that the several pilots who flew with him NEVER should have let him get away with it. What sucks is that it most likely would have been prevented if just one of those guys (not just the ones killed on that crew) had just said during one of his briefings, "Hey Bro, we don't ever fly the jet like that... why would we do that now?" Knowing the kind of pilot he was I'm betting he may have tried to explain why it was OK, but in the end would probably say, "Yeah, you're probably right." Unfortunately his name and reputation for the most part will always be associated with this crash (and I'd say that a good 90% of this is laid correctly at his feet) and we'll never know why he thought it was OK to fly the jet like he did, but those who were his friends and Squadron mates knew him as a great pilot, a great Dad and a great friend.

Coming on-line in the next 3 years is quite optimistic...

I liked it much better back in 2003 when there were just blown up plane carcasses dragged off to the sides of the runways...