stuckindayton
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Posts posted by stuckindayton
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Google “Air Force MSD” and look at Table One. There are no uncorrected acuity standards for pilot applicants. They were dropped about 5 years ago. Now, there are refractive limits only and they are rather generous. Your corneal scar may or may not need a waiver depending on specifics of the case. You must have vision correctable to 20/20 in each eye at distance and near. They almost never waive that for pilot applicants.
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On 10/25/2023 at 10:27 PM, wikz said:
little bit of a thread revival.
I was erroneously DQ'd by the MEPS chief medical officer 3 months ago for cuts on my legs (ive never cut myself before), which is ridiculous because everyone has scars on their legs from being active as a kid. i somehow got lucky and was the only one examined by this doctor, and everyone else that had the same cicatrixs' I did were passed through. even my recruiter was appalled by ….
MEPS is a complete sham. Laziest POS doctors I’ve ever seen. They don’t care about getting it right. Just collecting a paycheck. You can win this, just keep fighting it. Don’t give up.
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Thanks O Face and Burt for confirming the path forward. I'm super excited he's flying with the local unit and he just got hired by NetJets as well. FC I is complete, although WP was a bit touch and go. They find stuff even parents didn't know about!
This forum is a great resource. Happy I can contribute a little now and then.
Cheers.
Steve
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52 minutes ago, Guardian said:
Guard reserve standard. Yes. Sadly it is.
Swear in asap! Might be able to get some days and pay. Sorry that it takes so long. A year or more isn’t unheard of.Thank you, will do. Never too early to start learning the ways of the AF.
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My son got hired to fly C-17s at the local Reserve unit. He was verbally hired in December and they have no idea when he will get picked up for OTS/UPT/SERE, etc. They don't think it will be until next year and he obviously isn't getting paid at this time. However, they want him to swear in next week despite no timetable for moving forward. Is this normal?
Is taking the oath akin to signing a contract? Does one incur an obligation when they take the oath or does that only come with signing a contract?
I'm confused by the timing of events. Thanks in advance.
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23 minutes ago, Togapowerr said:
Hello again! I’ve made it through OTS and I am finally sitting as a casual at my UPT base. I’m scheduled to start pilot training in a few months....
Pretty much what the optometrist said- the flight doc just needs to confirm you meet all flight standards before you start flying. You don't need to repeat the FC I since it's good for four years, so no worries about whether your prescription is within standard. It's just to confirm that you meet standards for distant/near acuity, depth perception, air puff eye pressure, etc. using either your glasses or contact lenses or both. They will also check your blood pressure, listen to your heart, and all the other good stuff that goes along with a routine exam.
In regards to eyes and vision, the primary purpose is mostly to make sure that you have a current set of glasses, especially those highly desirable aircrew specs. No one is expecting a problem at this point.
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2 hours ago, Togapowerr said:
Thank you once again! I have one last question - is it true that once you are complete with UPT (and considered a "trained airmen") that your next comprehensive IFC-type of exam will only grade you to FC2 standards?
You are correct. Trained pilots are required to meet FC II standards which are significantly more lenient than FC I. If you don’t meet FC II standards waivers are given for most everything at that point. The only time a trained pilot gets DQ’d is when there is a safety of flight concern or when they don’t meet retention standards.
There really isn’t an FC II exam comparable to the FC I process. You are required to have an annual PHA, which is done by the flight doc and that’s pretty much it.
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Annual eye exams are not required for people wearing solely glasses. You are only required to have annual exams if you want to wear contact lenses when you fly for the AF because that requires you to be in the soft contact lens program. If you want to wear them for cosmetic reasons, you don't have to be enrolled in the program, but I suspect you'd have to pay for the contact lens care off base (you typically have to buy your own contact lenses either way). Historically, you had to be in the contact lens program if you chose to wear contact lenses for ANY reason while at UPT, but they changed the policy a couple of years ago to say it was only required if you wore contacts when flying.Correction: The change to the soft contact lens policy from a couple of years ago was to allow trained pilots (and other aircrew) to wear contact lenses off duty without having to enroll in the soft contact lens program. I thought it applied to UPT students, but it does not. If you wear contact lenses off duty during UPT, you are still required to be enrolled in the program and, thus, would be required to have an annual eye exam. Is anyone going to know if you do wear contact lenses on your time? Probably not.
The vision check at the flight docs office is basically visual acuity (ie. 20/20 distant and near) and depth perception. You will only be referred to optometry if you don't meet standards with your glasses. I also believe they discontinued annual color vision testing at your annual PHA so that's one less thing to worry about.
From what I've heard, glasses work OK at UPT. If you move on to airframes with certain helmet system (JHMCS, JSAM, F-35), contact lenses are often far more practical for compatibility reasons. Spectacles don't fit well under them and are not comfortable at all when wearing the helmets.
No worries on the questions. I'm retired.
BTW- eye infections are incredibly rare if you don't sleep in your contact lenses and otherwise give your eyes a break from them now and then.
Steve
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Routine eye exams are not required by AF policy. They only time you are required to see the optometrist is if you fail part of the vision screening at the flight doc office or if you wear contact lenses (annual eye exams required).
I've heard of some UPT commanders requiring eye exams off all UPT entrants just to catch any underlying vision problems that might impact UPT performance, but that is a one off decision.
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10 hours ago, Togapowerr said:
Hi all, I’m in a similar situation and wanted some input. So, I’m headed to OTS next week on a pilot slot for AD. If all goes well, I’ll be headed to UPT sometime after that (I heard that wait times can be around 6+ months).
I already got my IFC done at Wright Patt last June. Here’s the thing - I barely squeaked by on the vision portion as I had a refractive error of -3.00. Anything worse and I would’ve been DQ’d. However, I was lucky and get approved.
Now, I’ve learned from these forums that trained aircrew/pilots only need to meet FC2 criteria. However, I’ll still be considered “initial” aircrew before UPT. What happens if my refractive error gets worse than -3.00? Will I just lose my pilot slot? Can I get a waiver? Is refractive error even measured again after your IFC?
In short, I’m FC1 qualified but I’m worried that if my refractive error gets measured again right before UPT, I’ll be just outside the limits if my vision got any worse
Your IFC I is good for four years (I believe). Unless you are delayed to such a degree that you won't finish UPT before the four years is up, your refraction is not going to be rechecked during that time. Even if you go in for an eye exam, they won't do the full cycloplegic refraction required to formally measure refractive error. So no worries.
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On 2/26/2023 at 9:51 AM, Burt said:
Thread revival. When at my FC1 the flight doc told me to try to get enrolled in the soft contacts lense program through my unit before heading to UPT because once at training they don't want to take the time to schedule your follow-up appointments between classes (1 week, 1 month, 6 month, etc). A lot of the pilots in my unit said the same thing but our optometrist on-base is a DSG and can't do the 1 week follow-up appointment. So it sounds like I might not be able to get enrolled in the program before UPT. I still need to touch base with our flight doc to see if it's something he could waive (he's gone this UTA) but I've noticed some older posts about if you've been wearing approved soft contacts for 6 months prior to UPT you can get enrolled in the program once you arrive to your training base (you just have to do it first thing when you're medical in-progressing).
Any recent experiences with this? I'm also thinking about reaching out to some AD bases around where I live but my experience with that has historically been that flight medicine dosent like to work with people if it's not their responsibility. I've been wearing approved lenses for the past couple of years.
I've always assumed the 1 week/month, 6 month follow-up was a requirement for new contact lens wearers. If you are in an approved lens prior to showing up, I would expect the optometrist will enroll you in the soft contact lens program at UPT.
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7 minutes ago, twoTangoKilo said:
Wow that's it?? I was thinking that was maybe standard for enlisted aircrew or something, then D, E, F were scores for certain category of aircraft pilots. Thanks for the quick response!
Yep that's it. Air Force changed the standard from 25 arc sec (line D) to 40 arc sec (line B) about five years ago.
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2 hours ago, twoTangoKilo said:
Looking for a definitive answer as to what line is actually a PASS for pilots. I've read pilots have to get D, E, or F and I've also read here more recently that the standard pass line is B. Is B just a pass for MEPS entries and pilots have to score higher? Headed to FC1 next week and just trying to manage my expectations.
You must correctly identify line B. Three correct answers. Line A is there for practice only.
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On 2/5/2023 at 4:09 AM, Padres02 said:
Padre
PRK is a non issue in most cases. In fact most people who have a good outcome won’t need a waiver. I wouldn’t worry about it unless you think you have a problem with your eyes/vision. You will need a copy of your pre/post and surgical records for your Flying Class I.
The folks at Wright-Patt will take care of everything and should let you know what needs to be done.
Best of luck. Let me know if you have any other questions.
Steve
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I don't think there's any way to bypass MEPS. I know someone who recently got hired by a reserve unit and MEPS was the first step.
You are correct that MEPS is a crap shoot and can certainly complicate things un-necessarily.
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On 1/18/2023 at 1:07 PM, SOF_CSO said:
I had one quick question for you guys. As I shift gears from the active duty board to guard applications when I write my cover letter should I state that I already have Age and TFCSD waivers already approved that the AETC A1 level or is that a mute point and I will I have to work a completely new set of waivers for the guard?
SOF_CSO,
I'm fairly certain your waivers follow you and don't need to be re-accomplished. AETC is the waiver authority for everyone (active duty, ANG, AFRES) going through UPT so your current waiver should still be valid. They may have expiration dates attached to them which could come into play. Anyone in flight medicine should be able to look them up and find out that information for you if needed.
Best of luck.
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3 hours ago, HomieSath said:
Hello, I am applying for a reserve flight engineer job and was required to get a waiver for my history of ADHD. I was recommended qualified by the flight doc and they will be submitting my waiver and flight physical up to the AFRC HQ. Does anyone know if my chances of getting the waiver approved are good if I was recommended qualified by the doc? Thanks.
It really all comes down to whether you meet the waiver criteria. The flight doc can make any recommendation they choose, but the waiver authority follows the waiver guidelines the vast, vast majority of the time. All of this can be found in the Air Force Waiver guide if you want to review it. I'd post it, but it's a large file. Google "air force waiver guide 2022" and it's your first hit.
Best of luck.
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20 hours ago, Paulina said:
Hello so I have been doing some research for months now but it seems like I keep getting different answers everywhere. I was diagnosed with scoliosis recently and its 22 degrees Thoracic and 18 degrees Lumbar... so do I have any chance at a waiver?
Here's what the waiver guide says:
Based on those numbers, you are potentially waiverable. This is not my area of expertise, so I don't know what other factors go into waivers, but at least you are on the good side of the line based on the figures you report.
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16 hours ago, O Face said:
Really a bro move to continue to hang out on here, as a retired guy, and still willing to do research for people especially. Much appreciated, Doc
Appreciate the comments. Good to put this old brain to work for something the helps people.
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Refractive surgery alone is extremely unlikely to result in a DQ. If you have very high myopia, there are other things that could be an issue, mostly related to the retina (lattice degeneration, staphyloma, retinal holes, etc). For applicants, those are generally not waived when related to high myopia even when treated with refractive surgery.
Most surgeons would recommend waiting until your eyes have stabilized to get surgery since they will keep changing afterwards. However, the UPT situation puts a unique spin on this. It's not really an elective procedure at that point. That's a discussion you can have with your surgeon. If you are near the true waiverable limit (-10.00 D per my source) then get the surgery ASAP. If you go over -10.00 you most likely aren't going to get a waiver.
You can always get PRK/LASIK in ROTC (I believe). The issues with navigating civilian treatment outside of the military don't begin until you enter active duty.
Questions are no problem. Ask away. I'm retired, I've got all the time in the world.
Steve
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2 hours ago, AV4Life said:
Quick question I wanted to add on here after reading this discussion.
As someone in a similar position as you (myopia outside standard limits), would you guys recommend to get LASIK before starting OTS / ROTC? Or do it through the Air Force?
I start Air Force ROTC next year and am wondering whether doing the surgery before will mess up my chances of a pilot slot?
Cheers and good day.
Trying to get refractive surgery through the military can be a crap shoot. Historically, optometry manning has been a bottleneck and can make it tough to get treated on the Air Force's dime.
If you live near a base that has a surgery center (Lackland, USAFA, Andrews, Wright-Patt, Keesler, Travis, JBER, etc), you can typically get it done since the surgery center can do the pre/post op exams. If you are stationed away from those locations, your local optometry clinic may not have the resources to support and if they can't support it, you can't get it done via the military. You can always go the civilian route at your expense, but once you are active duty you must go through the "off base elective medical procedure" process which adds a bunch of hoops which can range from being inconvenient at a minimum and sometimes means you aren't allowed to do it at all.
People on flight status have better luck get surgery at military facilities since they are the highest priority, but others may not be so lucky.
AF surgery centers are equipped with very good technology and outcomes are excellent. It's just an extremely limited resource. Getting it done on your own ahead of time is certainly the path of least resistance.
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On 9/23/2022 at 4:03 PM, Mrs. Zero said:
And what makes the FC1 return slightly lower results- is it the use of cycloplegic refraction, or other stuff? Looks like my 2021 exam had cycloplegic refraction, but the 2020 exam did not.
The cycloplegic is one factor. The other is that the refraction does not push power to give you the best visual acuity (i.e. 20/15 or 20/10). They add power until you can clear the 20/20 line and then stop.
On 9/23/2022 at 4:03 PM, Mrs. Zero said:I've been wearing my previous script for the past few days. There is a minor difference in distant vision, but I certainly wouldn't call it lousy. FWIW, I was in my early 30's (and no pregnancy) when the jump happened.
That suggests the extra power wasn't necessary. You can still see well when a doc gives you additional lens power, but it's not necessary and can lead to headaches and eye fatigue which is why we try to avoid doing this.
On 9/23/2022 at 4:03 PM, Mrs. Zero said:Is it possible to get PRK between failing the FC1 and going to OTS, all while keeping the pilot spot? The max time limit between selection and starting OTS is 450 days (14.8 mo), so there's time to squeeze it in surgery + 6 months, just not sure if that's allowed. I've heard post-DQ the AF could either offer you another job or just tell you to kick rocks (forfeit your spot, be free to re-apply and compete for re-selection). Can I just tell them: "but wait, I get my eyes fixed!"
Yes, you can get refractive surgery after the FC I. In the past, we would just put the FC I on hold and then submit after the surgery. But, AETC didn't like us doing this so I believe the new process is to submit the FC I as a DQ if you are over -3.00 and then file an addendum after the surgery has been completed and you are successfully recovered and seeing well. I'll check on this and let you know if I'm wrong.
On 9/23/2022 at 4:03 PM, Mrs. Zero said:Anyway, with your words of encouragement, I'm going to send it and see what happens. Seriously, thanks for all your posts here. They have been invaluable in my attempt to decipher all the medical regs and results.
I think it's worth pushing forward.
Let me know if you have any other questions. I'll check on the process for getting PRK after the FC I if it becomes necessary.
Steve
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7 hours ago, Mrs. Zero said:
Hey all, another optometry question here. I'm attempting the gauge the likelihood that I would fail the refraction error requirements during FC1. ...@stuckindayton, I've spent the last few hours reading all your comments, hoping you may be willing to weigh in.
I'm a current AD enlisted flyer (airborne linguist) submitting my rated OTS app in a just a few days. I planned to list CSO and pilot, but based on the MSD I would DQ the FC1 for pilot due to my current -3.75/-3.5 eyeglass prescription issued in 2021. HOWEVER, in 2020 my prescription was -3/-2.75 (passing). It's noted in my records that this was an unusually high jump in a single year, and at the time, I did feel that it was overcorrected (probably my fault for being indecisive with the lens options). I understand that an eyeglass prescriptions correlate but don't predict IFC eye exams results. With no waiver potential for refractive error >-3.00, just wondering if I have a shot, or if there's no way in hell and I need to remove pilot from my application.
Being selected for pilot, DQ'ing FC1, and potentially wasting my/other people's shot at OTS for an issue I knew I had is my worst nightmare. My leadership says to send it, but they also thought that correctable to 20/20 was enough, so I don't fully trust them.
I have my annual optometry appt next month (after application submission) and can't bee seen any sooner2021.pdf. We'll see what comes of that, but I'll be hoping for a lower prescription. Ophthalmology exams attached. Do I have any shot at pilot eyes?
Hey Mrs. Zero,
I think you understand the situation very well. Not sure I can add a lot, but I'll try. First off, there is no wiggle room over -3.00. Historically, it's been a hard line in the sand. So you are correct, at your current prescription you are not going to be accepted. However, as you also point out, the FCI is done differently than a glasses prescription and is always going to be a little bit lower (at least for near-sighted people). Anywhere from 0.25 to 0.75 lower in most cases. And the docs at Wright-Patt will definitely do anything they can to keep you within standard.
I agree with you that the change from 2020 to 2021 is a pretty big jump. Not terribly uncommon with teenagers, but not expected for someone in their 20's or later. Is your vision through glasses from your 2020 exam really lousy? If so, then maybe the change is real. If not, then the extra power probably wasn't necessary.
Do not feel bad about applying, even if you are over -3.00. It happens frequently and no one gives you grief about it. You always have the option of PRK/LASIK with only a six month wait after surgery to be re-evaluated. The clock starts on the day of surgery and you have to be six months out on the day of your FC I exam. So, you can get the application started much earlier than six months. Heck, if you are active duty and your commander approves, you can even get the procedure on the AF's dime.
Bottom line, go for it. If you get the FC I done and end up over -3.00, you can always get PRK/LASIK afterwards and only have to recomplete a small portion of the eye exam.
Best of luck,
Steve
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I hope it works out. Good luck.
Gout
in Aviation Medicine
Posted
Sorry to hear about your friend's misfortune. Gout sucks.
The waiver guide states that any history of gout for FCI is not waiverable. It does report that a single FCI waiver was granted at some point, but no specifics are given.
I don't know how the civilian world handles it, but my assumption is that there are waivers for gout when it can be managed appropriately.
Hate to be the bearer of lousy news, but I wouldn't expect a favorable decision from the Air Force on this one.