Private Pilot License (PPL) questions

[Guest Triple_H]

I know that a PPL is not necessary, but most people say that it is very beneficial to increasing your chances of getting a pilot's slot in the Air Force. I am thinking about taking the Air Force ROTC route and attempting to get a slot that way.

Has anybody else here got their PPL before trying to get a pilot's slot? If so, how much did it help you? Is a PPL enough, or should a person also get an Instrument rating (which usually takes longer than getting a PPL and is very expensive)?

I have talked to many people involved in Air Force ROTC and they say that the major you take is not a force at all, just as long as you get a bachelors and a good grade. Considering this, wouldn't it be better to take a course that isn't super difficult, such as engineering or math?

[Guest Tiger31]

For OTS and Guard/Reserve slots, it is almost necessary. To be honest, I don’t think it is worth getting if you are deciding on going ROTC. If you have the time and money, go ahead. If not, I wouldn’t worry about it. A lot of candidates are selected with zero flight time. Hours are one of three things that factor into your PCSM and that is only 10 or 15 percent of your order of merit (OM). If you want a slot through ROTC, then you should: 1.) be an outstanding cadet and 2.) make good grades. IN THAT ORDER. Being a good cadet carries more weight than grades. You could have a 4.0 MS in Mechanical Engineering, but if you suck as a cadet, then you may be disappointed.

While you are deciding on your major, you should leave your pilot aspirations out of the equation. You probably don’t want to hear this, but in the event you don’t become a pilot, you probably won’t be able to use your BA in Basket Weaving (even though you were Magna Cum Laude :D ). You should pick something that you feel you will enjoy. If you do, then you will likely do well in it anyway. Good luck!

[Guest iowapilot]

I dont know how common this is, but a one of the line guys out at Des Moines Intl (124th FS) was selected for pilot training and they paid for his PPL. They also gave him an allowance for other materials to study with and basic needed items for training. I dont know exactly how this works since I am not in the military, but I thought it might apply here.

[Baseops.Net]

Iowapilot - it is true that the USAF will pay for your PPL, but that is AFTER you get selected for UPT. There is this new program called IFT (Intro Flight Training) that pays for your PPL after you get commissioned, but prior to you going to pilot training.

I agree with Tiger - choose your major based on what you want to study and what you will get out of it. With that in mind, the USAF used to have an affinity for technical majors for pilot selection, but that has diminished in the last 10 years or so.

As far as the PPL, too many guys on this board seem to be only concerned with whatever it takes to simply get selected to UPT - but not what will help them prepare for and actually complete the program (approx. 15% washout rate). There is no doubt that prior flight time will help out tremendously in UPT. It is a zero-hour program (as I proved when I went through pilot training with zero civilian time), but a good foundation in civilian flying (i.e. basic aero, landing picture, basic flight maneuvers) pays off tremendously.

Generally speaking, from the student pilots that I train, the ones with more flight time will perform better. Obviously, there is still the anomaly in that there are high-timers that washout of the program, but flight time helps - there is no doubt there.

Your flight experience plays a much larger role in ANG/AFRES selection as stated above.

Bottom line, if you can afford flight time, get it - even if you may only be able to get a few hours.

[Guest Triple_H]

Originally posted by Baseops.Net:

Your flight experience plays a much larger role in ANG/AFRES selection as stated above.

Bottom line, if you can afford flight time, get it - even if you may only be able to get a few hours.

What is the ANG/AFRES again? How big a role does flight time play? What age did you get your PPL license at?

What do you mean by "washout"? Is that people quitting or people being kicked out because they under-perform? And by getting flight time do you mean not necessarily get your license, but just get flight time? By that are you including flight time such as not actually flying the plane, but being with an instructor that does? Do you mean simply begin PPL lessons, but not necessarily complete them?

[C17Driver]

>What do you mean by "washout"? Is that people >quitting or people being kicked out because >they under-perform? And by getting flight time >do you mean not necessarily get your license, >but just get flight time? By that are you >including flight time such as not actually >flying the plane, but being with an instructor >that does? Do you mean simply begin PPL >lessons, but not necessarily complete them?

"Washout" is pretty much as you described it. A person that didn't make it through training for whatever reason. Can be anything from medical to underperforming and in some cases, someone that quits.

As far as the flight time goes, if selected for UPT you will have to have a PPL before starting UPT. Some are fortunate enough to get the PPL before they compete for a pilots slot and there are some that get it afterwards. If you are in ROTC and get selected for a UPT slot, the AF will pay for the PPL if you don't already have it.

As far as the time goes... Any time you can spend in the air either manipulating the controls or learning a little situational awareness and technical skills will be beneficial as others have already stated.

[Guest Guppyguy]

<<What is the ANG/AFRES again? How big a role does flight time play? What age did you get your PPL license at?>>

TripleH-

In my experience, having at least a PPL and a significant amount of flight time is weighted alot more with Guard+Reserve units. The reason, is that they want as much assurance as possible that you will pass flight training and return to be an asset in their unit. The only way any candidate can really prove that, is by already having flight experience. How much is enough??? - as much as you can afford - it can only help. The bare minimum is a PPL. After you get that, continue to fly and collect ratings - they want to know you are a proficient pilot, not just somebody who jumped through a hoop.

With that said, there are plenty of other things they look for which could DQ you despite how much flight time you have, ie. attitude/personality/etc..

I got my PPL at 18. I forget what the minimum age is, my memory says solo at no earlier than 15, private by 16? I'd have to dig up the regs - it's been many years.

Best of luck-

Guppyguy

[Guest Dan_Rissacher]

If you wanna go Guard, talk to the unit(s) that your interested in and ask them what you can do to maximize your chances. That's what I did and one thing they said was get a PPL. Not only did the PPL help my package, they like the fact that I was dedicated enough to do everything they asked of me.

Some units may not care as much. Hey, it would save you a lot of cash to let them pay for IFT, but my view was that I was going to do everything in my power to get selected (it worked by the way).

Its important to start the personal dialog ASAP with a Guard unit that your interested in anyway. So try to make contacts at units your interested in and see what they want from you.

[Guest thdet205]

Tripple H-

If you want my advice, for what it's worth...there is no need to get hours before you go before your package is submitted before the pilot board while you are in ROTC. That is just me...however it DOES help to have at least some hours to increase your package, because the package awards a small amount of points for those who have hours. (i.e. 20-30 hours 31-40 etc.) so you can benefit from having some hours, but I would do just that, get SOME hours, don't bother getting your PPL, because if you get your slot, the AF will put you through IFT, and pay for everything--FAA written, PPL check ride, head-sets, sectionals, books, instruction. They will let you only do this if you don't have your PPL, so if you have it, there is no need for IFT. The purpose of IFT is to see if you can hack flying mentally and if you are competent to fly, so they don’t have to spend time on that during UPT. Long story short, get some hours, and if you get a slot, have fun w/ IFT! PPL will not neccicarly make a huge difference in your overall selection for pilot...your grades, PFT, how well you participate and excel in ROTC will be the big factors! GOOD LUCK!

TH

ADD LT Det 205

Moody Class 05-03

[Guest Brandy]

Alright i already know that having a PPL absolutely does not gurantee you a slot, but just wondering if anyone knows someone that had a PPL and didnt get a slot? Im getting my PPL and retaking the AFOQT (scores werent legendary 1st time arounD)

And yes, I know there are many factors that go into selection...blah blah blah... so you dont need to fill me in. Just wondering specifically about having a PPL and getting a slot. Let me know what you think.

[Guest ifrflyer]

Yes, I know of many that have had a PPL that didn't get a slot. Nothing GURANTEES you a slot. Having a PPL just shows that you have SOME flying ability. I have a PPL and instrument, soon to have a commercial, and it is still very competitive.

I think you need at least a PPL to be looked at (just my opinion).

The 1st time I spoke to the chief pilot at my sponsoring unit, he told me to go get my PPL AND instrument, and then come and talk to him.

I was hired as a pilot after my PPL and before my instrument (only to be DQ'ed on my physical). The unit has now hired me as a nav (still problems with my eye's, but not a showstopper).

I hope that anwered your question.

[Guest priorE]

"I think you need at least a PPL to be looked at (just my opinion)."

That may be true for guard/reserves, but for ROTC, it is NOT. I know several people that had 0....let me say it again Zero hours that got slots.

If you are not ROTC, just disregard this post.

"And yes, I know there are many factors that go into selection...blah blah blah... so you dont need to fill me in. Just wondering specifically about having a PPL and getting a slot. Let me know what you think."

You basically answered your own question-but if you want to know what I think, then read on:

If you are looking at the ROTC route, you would be concerned with PCSM, which accounts for AFOQT pilot score, BAT test, and then flying hours. According to my Det commander, flying hours is a minor part of the "magic" formula that makes up the PCSM. He recommended grades being more important...after all, they actually take your transcripts when you do the BAT and before they calculate PCSM...so your GPA could go into PCSM-but no one really knows. Also, PCSM is worth 15% of the selection score----that means 85% of what the board will see is NOT PCSM. Remember that flying hours is only part of PCSM, as well-probably a minor %.

Most important: On the ROTC side of the house, ratings mean NOTHING. Hours are the only thing that is looked at. For ROTC, getting a PPL=NOTHING. Anything beyond that=NOTHING. Hours up to 200= points. Of course, you might as well get ratings if you get a bunch of hours.

I wouldn't spend a lot of money on flying to get a pilot slot, though. From what I have seen, the people who spend their "extra" time on ROTC get pilot slots. In the final equation that goes to the board, flight hours are one of the smallest things considered. Your commander's ranking is the biggest...so that's where your efforts should go.

I do have almost 200hrs, PPL and instrument and a pilot slot-but my flying had very little to do with my pilot slot. I had a crappy PCSM with 1 take on the AFOQT-then I took the AFOQT again and my AFOQT pilot and PCSM score jumped up dramatically. If I would have flown a lot more, my score would have went up 4 points. Taking the test over brought it up 20 points. I think my commander was right.

From my experience, get good grades, kick *** in ROTC, and you will be rewarded. You just cannot buy a pilot slot, honestly.

Definitely DO go flying for YOU, though-not for a pilot slot! After all, how do you know if you will really like it until you do it? Take some instruction and see how it goes, and enjoy it!

[ 08. April 2004, 00:44: Message edited by: priorE ]

[Guest pcampbell]

I concur with above posts, but I would like to expand on what priorE means by "kick *** in ROTC". I was never a really active cadet, but I was ranked #1 in my class. I got a BS in Physics while I was married to a BS Nursing student. My gpa was good, and my peers thought well of me (I think).

I believe I was ranked highly, not because I was at every event, I wasn't, but because I am a leader. I wasn't afraid of challenges. I strove for leadership positions in the cadet corps. I tried to make positive change for the cadet corps.

The whole point is this. Pilots lead the Air Force. We don't want people who aren't willing to lead to become pilots. We can teach anyone to fly a plane, but we can't necessarily teach anyone to be a leader.

[Guest Haelrox]

How much should the training for a Private Pilot License (PPL) cost? Several individuals have told me the cost was around $3000 for their PPL training, but the only flight school in the southern Mississippi area that provides PPL training quotes around $6000.

With no Aero Club here at Keesler AFB, I'm left with no other choice if I want to make myself more competitive for active duty pilot selection. Thoughts?

[WHAP]

It all depends on the region of the country you are in and cost of planes, ect. In Arizona I paid about 3500. Just check the number of hours the flight school thinks you need. If the number is higher than 50, its bullsh**.

[Tex]

I got mine four years ago in Texas, it should cost about $4000 if everything falls in place, ie the weather stays good the whole time, planes don't break, there are no delays getting your FAA medical etc, all of these things mean that you may not fly atleast once or twice a week. For some people that means that it will take a few more lessons to really get proficient.

I guess there the short answer is that if everything works out perfectly and you get done right at the FAA min of 40 hours then $4000 is a good general estimate depending on the exact prices, but expect to spend alittle more than the minimum.

[Gravedigger]

The Southeast is typically more expensive. With the exception of rating factories. Expect to pay around 5,500-6,000 and that is if you finish with around 45-50 hours. I know it sucks, but there aren't many options.

[Guest ClemsonFlyBoy]

Here is what i did. I started about a year ago. I got my pilot license in 40 days flew abou 4 times a week at 55 dollars an hour with 25 instructor per hour. I had about 23 instructor hours and i took a ground school class for like 200 which included all books and maps etc. (provided by shaw AFB and local community college). I got my license in 45 days after my first flight. After all medicals ground school, written tests, and flight tests, i spent about 3600$. That was cheap as compared as to what my friends did. best thing to do is do it fast.

C 152 - 55$ / hr

Instructor - 25 $ / hr

Class with books - 195$

Medical 3rd class - 75 $

faa written 80 $

faa check ride - 250$

all this in south carolina in the south east

[PapaJu]

C17, that isn't true. Here in Miami many of the flight schools charge $4000-4500 for everything you need for PPL, including lessons, tests, medical, books, etc.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Haelrox:

Several individuals have told me the cost was around $3000 for their PPL training, but the only flight school in the southern Mississippi area that provides PPL training quotes around $6000.

I got my license through an aero club about 10 years ago. It cost about $3500, and even then it was about a Grand cheaper than the Part 141 school up the street.

So, I imagine that with inflation, higher gas prices, etc, that the price has probably gone up in the last decade...

[Gravedigger]

I do know that there are plenty of places claiming the $4000 PPL, but most are really just training for a checkride. A lot of them also have pre-requisites that they fail to mention in their brochures. I'm not saying that all of them are bad, but anyone saying all the way through for $4500 or cheaper is probably cutting corners in some areas that might really hurt you. Clemsonboy, good on ya for finishing so quickly, but there are VERY few places that have planes, instructors, and materials for that cheap.

[ 16. May 2004, 22:18: Message edited by: c17wannabe ]

[Guest Swigs]

Its all about location, if you live in a little bit more expensive area then its going to cost more. If you live in the middle of no where then its going to be cheap.

[WHAP]

It also helps to find a cool instructor that will do ground school one on one (sts) and just sign you off. Mine was cool like that. Out in Arizona we pay about 55 dollars an hour for a C-150 and the 25 an hour for the instructor. Sucks to be you guys in places like Naples.

[Guest Sundowner]

If you want to learn to fly on the cheap, come down here to Wichita, get a job at Cessna, and join their employee's flying club. They get REIMBURSED whenever they get a new rating. I've heard the payback for a PPL was a couple of grand. Best flying club in the world. A fleet of like 20 NEW cessnas. Unbelievably cheap rates. Excuse me while I sob for a moment....

Of course only losers fly high-wings! just kidding! kind of ;)

[Guest HueyPilot]

One option that I've heard of folks doing is something you could consider if you're already an officer in the military (thus getting a decent paycheck).

Go buy a mid-time Cessna 150 for about $15,000 to $20,000. I looked into it, you can finance those things for 10 years, thus your payment would be fairly low. Insurance for a newbie can be high, but not outrageous (like $150 a month). I checked into insurance for myself for one of those things and they quoted me $700 a year. Granted, I have 1,700 hours though.

If you sell it within a few years, you don't need to put away for an engine reserve, just the annual. And annuals on those things cost around $500. They burn about 6 gallons an hour, so hourly fixed costs to you would run around $5 an hour for the annual, about $5 an hour for miscellaneous mx costs, and about $12 to $18 an hour for fuel, depending on fuel rates in your area.

Basically, that's as little as $22 an hour, plus around $20 for an instructor. The monthly loan payment would run around $200-300 a month, and the insurance about $150, and tie-down around $40-50 a month, so it's like having a car payment.

Now, this will cost more than renting, but not excessively more, and best thing, you own the airplane and can do what you want with it.

If you can swing the monthly costs, you're looking at an average of 60 hours to get your PPL, of which approximately 30-40 will be dual lessons (ie, with an instructor). Count on $600 to the instructor, and $1300 for the airplane. Add on a couple hundred dollars for a ground course to prepare you for the written. Then about $100 for the examiner, and another $500 for books, headset and other pilot supplies.

That's about $2,500. Plus, you'll own your airplane, so you can go where you want with it.

If I could go back and do things differently, I would have paid off my debt and done exactly what I wrote above.