Lifestyle of Helicopter Pilots

[Guest waxgoblin]

i was reading my airman magazine, and it looks like huey pilots at space launch places fly a lot more hours than special ops and what-not. how many hours a week do huey pilots fly? pave hawk pilots? at the space launch places do the hueys just patrol?

[Guest phrogpilot]

The Marine Corps does not fly the Navy MH-53E helicopters. I was reluctant to post but the last time the Marine Corps flew Navy Helicopters was the RH-53 during Desert One (see the Holloway Commission). The MH-53 can carry, I think, 10 hours of fuel and the CH-53E has aux tanks which can be dropped and carries 6 hours of fuel. The AF 53 has two engines, the USMC 53 has three engines and the IR signature to go with it.

[scoobs]

Can helo pilots go to C-12's?

[Guest rotorhead]

Yes, absolutely. It is like other OSA assignments, in that you come from a system, like UH-1, etc., go to C-12 for a tour, and return to the previous machine, like UH-1. The same is true for going back to do a T-37 tour, etc. If you want, I can PM you the email address of a guy I work with who did the C-12 thing in Asia.

[scoobs]

Is it hard to get assigned a C-12?And isn't that considered a remote tour.And it doesn't matter what helo you come from?Thanks

[Guest rotorhead]

The crew-aircraft assignments branch at the AFPC is given a bill to pay for OSA each assignment cycle. They mix in the big assignment blender the number of folks needed, timeframe, health of the various MDS's, and volunteers/time on station, etc. If there are 5 KC-135 ACs that volunteer, and the KC-135 world is healthy on ACs, while the H-60 force is undermanned, or has no volunteers, then the nod will go to the KC-135 flesh peddler to provide a name. If there are no volunteers, and the MDS's are equally hurting, then they rotate who gets to fess up the loss.

A C-12 is considered a remote tour like any other, depending on assignment location/length...for example, a 1-year to Korea is a remote, regardless of C-12 or cops, etc.

You can come from any helo, but it depends on who can afford to lose you. For example, if H-1 manning is 110% for ACs, and H-60s are 80% for ACs, the flesh peddler at the AFPC can afford to lose the H-1 guy for 3 years easier than he can afford to lose the H-60 guy.

[Guest rotorhead]

Huey units include:

Vandenberg (AFSPC)- no missiles on strategic alert, but for launches of ballistic missiles and satellites, Hueys sweep the miles of coastline prior to launch. They also do buckets for forest fires to support the local folks.

Minot, Malmstrom, FE Warren (AFSPC) - three to four strategic missile squadrons on alert (that's 150-200 missiles) that require hauling parts, people to/from them, and when they move a warhead to/from the site, the Hueys patrol. The Hueys are also on alert for security issues, whether danger to a warhead, codes, people, etc.

The AFSPC Hueys are getting outfitted with FLIR as we speak. They do day formation, day low-level, and NVG remote ops.

Andrews (AMC) and Yokota (PACAF) are in the VIP people hauling business, but they also have other classified response missions, GWOT flights, etc.

Fairchild (AETC) does the day formation, day low-level, and NVG remotes, and have FLIR as well, and they support the survival school, demonstrating hoisting, harassing "evaders" etc.

Eglin (AFMC) does support for tests, whether carrying sensors for tests, or sweeping test areas.

Some Huey flights use flight engineers, others do not. The Dash-1 does not mandate FEs. All Huey units respond to peacetime SAR when called, and may land on hospital rooftops, etc. Also, they all do VIP flights when the stars come to visit the base.

Sorry, I don't know the flight hours of the various units/pilots.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

There was very stiff competition to get a UPT-H slot at Ft Rucker back in the day. The USAFA cadets got more than half the slots and ROTC guys gad to fight it out in the central selection process. Now it seems like there are fewer volunteers and the word on flying a helo is that it sucks and you have to be a crappy pilot to get stuck with one.

FWIW, flying choppers is by far some of the VERY BEST flying you will EVER do. It is real flying. Helos are the ultimate off road vehicle. The missions are the most challenging and rewarding flying missions in the world. It is hard for most fixed wing guys to imagine what it is like to only make two radio calls to a controlling agency in a 3 hour sortie...one to take off (assuming you are leaving a controlled airfield) and one to land (same assumption). It is total freedom, like the Wright Brothers.

Helicopters are the best.

My advice, don't listen to what people say about helos unless they have some experience. Remain undeterred once you decide to go after a helo slot. Lots of people will give you a hard time, ignore them. Do not drink the Big Blue Kool-Aid about single seat fighter pilots being the best and the speed of your airplane is determines how skilled an aviator you are. A good pilot is a good pilot, it doesn't matter what he flys.

Remember, the important view from any aircraft in flight is from the cockpit out, not the other way around. Plenty of aircraft may look/sound cool at an airshow...that doesn't mean you will like the mission.

And last of all...run like hell when someone comes up to you and says it is time for you to go fixed wing.

[Guest rotorhead]

Opie- the 53 hauls in/out special teams like seals, CC teams, and other SF folks. They also do rescue when tasked. 53s started Desert Storm I. They are stationed at Mildenhall, Hurlburt, and the Kirtland Schoolhouse. 53s are aging, and being replaced in the next couple of years with the CV-22 (supposedly).

BoSox- Rucker produces roughly 60 newbie USAF flingwingers each year. ROUGHLY 3/6 H60, 2/6 H1, and 1/6 H53. You can get virtually any helo assignment out of Rucker, with the obvious exception of the IP only jobs, like Kirtland, Test, Weapons, etc.

Scoobs- The flow from H1 to 53/60 changes year to year. Some years, the production from Rucker combined with AC/IP upgrades saps all Kirtland capacity, leaving little crumbs left for a crossflow from H1 units. Other years, they have even encouraged folks to flow. There are always a few each year. Here's where I step on some H1 toes...no H60 or H53 guy I've ever met has any desire to do VIP duty at Andrews/Yokota. Some H1 folks desire it, not for the flying, but because the location provided some opportunity they desired (wife, school, family, etc.). Many years ago, AFPC asked me if I wanted Andrews after my first tour (H1), I told them to pack sand. There are H1 folks who NEVER go overseas. Most H53 and H60 folks do one overseas tour, but occasionally you'll find one who does not.

Wax- You can get Vandenberg out of Rucker, but remember the H1 units are small, and if they just sent a Rucker grad there a month ago, odds are pretty high AFPC (and the Unit) don't want to send another one right away. Each H1 unit will get perhaps 2-3 Rucker grads a year.

[scoobs]

It is still possible to make O-5 or O-6.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

F.E. Warren AFB in Cheyenne WY used to have the MAST (Military Assistance to Safety and Traffic) mission. The average year was 50-60 real world rescue missions for the unit. The MAST missions were exciting, often times going to car wrecks on the Interstate and flying banged up folks to Denver, landing on top of the hospital rooftops right in downtown. There was always a crew on alert which meant you had at least one day a week off (for crew rest) to carry the beeper overnight.

Cheyenne is a great town. Close to Ft Collins, Boulder, Denver and great skiing.

The missile crews drive themselves to the missile sites. The helos would only bring a missile crew out in an emergency situation.

[Guest rotorhead]

Scoobs- your declarative sentence, "It is still possible to make O-5 or O-6" appears as though you MEANT it to be a question. It amazes me how many folks "feel sorry" for helo pilots, or think they "got stuck" with helos, or they won't be promoted, or they have 90-knot brains, etc. Also, your post on the other room, "It seems that helos guys have a great chance of some jet time, but that will go away with the Texans" is curious. Rest assured, I am not some hypersensitive helicopter guy who feels like his toes are stepped on...this is just the real deal:

RW promotion rate averages are AT LEAST as good as FW ones...up to O-6. If you have designs on general, maybe you'd better go elsewhere, simply because there are not that many RW wing commander jobs to groom you to general.

I got a tweet ride in ROTC. I went to UPT-H (with Rainman!!!) and LOVED every minute of it. The USAF should have stayed with that program for a variety of reasons (I won't go into here). Later, as a Rucker IP, I got another tweet ride. It was cool like any other flying experience (like T-41s, etc.) but I certainly don't feel like I missed ANYTHING by not going through a tweet program. If you want tweet time for some later job, like regional airlines, etc, we don't want you in the helo world anyway...we want folks who want to eat dirt, and sacrifice EVERYTHING to return a fallen pilot home.

YES, you can be a RW pilot and go back later to be a T-37/T-6 IP, but take caution. There is a helo-to-whitejet payback bill just like there is for all other USAF MWS communities, but ours is a little different. In other communities, some folks want to go, but many are jammed with the alpha tour against their will. In the helo world, the bill is small (maybe one pilot per assignment cycle) but we very carefully select him, and he is a volunteer. If you want to be a tweet IP because you want FW time as an attempt to jump to a FW MWS, forget it...you will not be allowed. Also, if you want to be a tweet IP to get FW time for some later airline job, you will not be selected. The USAF helo community is small, and we'd see right through those "self before service" attitudes. We select a true helo brother, who wants to carry the flag back to the tweet world to dispel any un-informed dogma professed by non-helo types, steering youngsters away from the RW career. Our helo-to-tweet IP is charged with changing mindsets, and advertising the unsung, fabulous helo flying. After the whitejet tour, they return to the helo fold.

One final word of advice...if ANY instructor pilot at UPT spouts off any negativity to helos, simply ask him how many helo tours he's served.

By the way Rainman, I got your email, and I'm not ignoring you...I'm still crafting the response...it is FABULOUS to reconnect with such a great American!

[Guest waxgoblin]

what is the timeline for 10 years as a RW Pilot?

is it like 3 years in a huey, then 7 years in a pave hawk? or do you do 10 years huey, or do they try to move you away from RW later and get moved into fixed wing?

[Guest rotorhead]

Scoobs-no worries...like I said above, you're not stepping on my toes..

Wax-you could stay Hueys for a career, or

you could do Hueys a tour or two and then move to 53s or 60s.

you could start out in 53s or 60s (and stay there)

it would be very unlikely to go to FW after several years in RW service...you're too valuable.

Back when Rainman and I came in, they said they were going to buy 80 hawks any minute, so they pumped in the pilots to do it...well, they bought 11, and then started retiring the H3, and that created a huge glut of helo pilots, so they offered scores of helo pilots FW crossflow, and let scores go to an Army exchange for a tour. They did away with UPT-H, basically drying up the helo pipeline. Finally, they did indeed buy 100 hawks (counting the ARC), and a huge shortage was at hand. Standard personnel cycles being out of phase with needs.

As an aside, the T-6 is around partly due to helos.

Pentagonites were trying to justify buying the T-6, and the beancounters came up with some number of UPT trainees that had to trained each year to justify the buy...the number kept coming up about 50 too few to justify the buy (after the T-6, the T-1 and T-38 and T-44 pipes were full). A RW brainiac said, I know where you can get 50 more pilots each year....thus was born the helo track from SUPT...AETC got a new trainer, and the helo pipeline got turned back on. Many other factors were involved, but helos played a part. Again, UPT-H was a better plan, IMHO.

[scoobs]

Can someone tell me the difference between the unit at Nellis.Which ones deploy and how hard it is to get selected.

[Guest Jollygreen]

Nellis AFB has 3 HH-60G flying units that share the same maintenance squadron.

66 RQS, Det 1 18 FLTS, and the weapons school (36 WPS?). Only the 66th is on mobility status but that does not mean pilots in the WIC or FLTS can't deploy...only that it isn't as common.

Assignment to the 66th is no more difficult then any other 60 unit. The FLTS and WIC require experienced HH-60G pilots.

[scoobs]

What do pilot do in the FLTS and WIC units?

[Guest Jollygreen]

Flight Test Squadron runs the operational test & evaluations for the HH-60 and related CSAR modifications/equipment. Weapons Instructor School is ... well, the weapons instructor school (other threads on this board have details on the WIC).

Normally both are only manned with IPs who are O-3 and above. Definately no first assignment pilots.

[Guest flecth033]

Does anyone know if there are any helo guard units ? I know there is a PJ guard unit somewhere, but does anybody know if they are attached to a fix wing or helo unit ? Thanks

[Guest HercengTN]

Alaska

[Guest drifter]

moffet field, CA

[scoobs]

Tucson.I am still trying to figure out if they hire off the street.I have posted a few times but nobody seems to know.

[Scooter14]

Westhampton NY

[PapaJu]

To summarize...

Guard units are located at Elmendorf, Moffett, and Westhampton. Reserve has a rescue wing at Patrick with a geographically separated squadron at Davis-Monathan.

[Guest AirGuardian]

Most units will work this issue this way:

Anyone outside the 45 mile zone(there abouts) is entitled to quarters whether off base or on if available. In our case we have plenty of out of towners come in for Guard weekend and stay at a hotel from Friday thru Sunday morning or after for travel. The travel portion is not paid by the unit since it was your choice to join that unit... This is being done at many units across the country. Some are more lenient, others not on the hotel thing(not normal), but I definitely would find it hard to believe any unit could afford to pay any member on a regular basis to come out to the unit. Only when they are on orders to come in and fly do we pay mileage with a max limit. Those who fly for the airlines(majority of unit types) use their jumpseat privelages and then their hotel is covered. Overall, you need to call the unit and find out how they work this issue, but it shouldn't be too far off, especially since I have stayed at Moffet billeting long, long ago(80's), it might not be there anymore. If it is, then that's an easy answer! 3 Hours is nothing to have the chance to fly! Even an active spot may not pay you enough to live as close as you wish. It's California after all and I lived there and near Moffet for many years. As you know everyone commutes, there's just no way around it if you want a house... Good luck!

Perhaps Moffet will too?