spaw2001

So when circumstances change and you decide to get out after 10 years, what happens then? To say, no big deal I'll go get a real masters degree at age 33-35 and go from 80K a year to zero seems a bit of an unrealistic proposal. Why not just knock out a decent one now..there are plenty of good schools out there with online degrees..while not perfect and it would be nice to go to a college country club for a couple of years, unfortunately that is not the cards us aviators were dealt. You're right, the Air Force doesn't care about strength of curriculum but one day, 20 yrs or not, we will be out and a real masters will help. In the business world (unless you are an entrepreneur) people are literally capped out at a certain point without a MBA. The Air Force sends mixed messages about education, and my argument is to ignore it. Some people don't care about getting a good degree and that's fine..But I don't think it is good advice to say "check the box" and move on...that is based on a myopic Air Force world view. There are tons of good schools with online degrees. Yes, it takes some time and money but hey anything good takes sacrifice if it's what you want to do. Here is a list of some Engineering Columbia Stanford Georgia Tech Auburn MBA Duke Indiana UNC Penn State Florida State Dartmouth (healthcare) Poli Sci George Washington Northwestern (public policy) Johns Hopkins (communications) NYU (human relations) Northwestern, Hopkins and NYU are through there advanced studies school which some argue is not the "real" school Systems Engineering Cornell

nsplayr...You are right. After typing up the response, I realized I said non-accredited. AMU is regionally accredited. I am not trying to shit on people that took that route, but I am going to shit on the school. Regional accreditation is a way of getting "accredited" when a school can't qualify for AACSB. It is smoke and mirrors because undergrad schools are often regionally accredited (including the likes of Harvard) but this doesn't fly for MBAs. Unfortunately, AACSB is the sole recognized MBA accreditation source. It depends on your goals. If you plan on checking the box and going to school again later, then fine. But, don't think you can roll up to goldman sachs after the ten year commitment and show them an AMU MBA. But, if you plan an being an airline pilot, or some job that doesn't require a MBA, who cares. We got briefed in SOS that a lot is changing and the Generals are taking a hard look at the way the Air Force views the degree. "checking the box" rules seem to change every several year, so that is why I am a proponent of getting a degree for yourself and not for the Air Force. Also, I think these for-profit schools have warped many military folks perception of what education actually costs. We talk about how TA will cover most of the costs at certain schools and how they will start you out with a BAC+, but in reality these are main indicators that you are dealing with a for-profit. While I don't agree with education costs, and the education bubble is mostly likely going to burst, top schools cost in the neighborhood of 200K for a 2 year MBA program. This includes tuition, room and board, health insurance, etc...Many of my Army friends that are getting out and going to top schools have to come up with a huge chunk of change (and piece together GI Bill, loans, cash, etc...). These costs don't even consider the two year opportunity cost of not getting a paycheck. This is why I find it surprising when people in the Air Force scoff at 50K for a MBA or even 80K for UNCs new online MBA. Kaneda215, I just finished my MBA through Kelley and now working on a dual degree with them. I feel strongly about this subject because my decision to go to Kelley was one of the best decisions I have ever made (not to be too melodramatic). The school and instructors were absolutely top notch and you will be surprised how smart your classmates are. You aren't relegated to the low-end instructors. You are taught by the same faculty as the in-res program. For example, Kelley hosts one of the top entrepreneurship programs in the country and my professor was the department head who wrote the text book for the class...pretty cool. My experience there literally changed many of my perspective and views for the better. As for the level of work, I would say it is challenging but not overwhelming by any stretch. The school understands you are a working professional and is very flexible. But, at the same time, don't expect to simply coast. The GMAT is definitely required but they understand that people have been away from school so the score doesn't need to be crazy high. A low 600s should do the trick. One thing is, there are 2, one week in-residencies that are waiverable for military, but I HIGHLY recommend going to them. Going to the Bloomington campus (which is beautiful btw), networking, and getting wined and dined by the B-school is quite an experience. With regards to flexibility, in order to finish the MBA in 2 years, you will pretty much have to take 2 classes per term. I was able to drop down to one class per term a couple of times and still finish in 2 years. Like I said before, 2 classes is a challenging work load but not overwhelming if you stay ahead of the game. But, taking 2 classes in UPT would be unsustainable. Also, you can put the MBA on hold. You have 5 years to finish it. Kelley has 2 admissions cycles. One in March and one in Sept. You have to look up the website, but I think the March entrance has a Jan application deadline, and the Sept entrance has an app deadline in the summer some time. Feel free to PM me with questions. Spaw

Check out Kelley School of Business at Indiana (ranked 19 by Business Week and 23 by US News). Also UNC offers an onliner now as well but is over 80K...Kelley costs about 55K not including TA and the mil discount they offer. This is a steal for a top tier MBA. Man, get a degree for yourself...screw the Air Forces check the box bullshit...the work place is competitive out there and you have no idea at this point if you want to stay in for sure for 20. A non-accredited degree from a for profit such as Touro or AMU will not be recognized in the work place. The key is to ensure your MBA is AACSB accredited and that the online degree is the same diploma AND transcript as in-res programs..good luck!

I am not trying to be high and mighty and as a mobility pilot it has been a royal pain in the ass to juggle flying and masters work. Yet,I somewhat disagree with the fact that online education is worthless. Bottomline, it depends on what degree you get and from where. I am pretty interested in academia/follow news on it, and the Air Force's jacked up approach towards education is one of the main reasons why I chose to apply for VSP just recently. Some background info first: The going rate for a top-tier MBA is about $150,000 in-residence with tuition and room/board. The going rate for a top 15 law school is about $200,000 all said and done. A recent economist article argues an education bubble is approaching where going to school full time and accumulating massive debt with no salary is barely worth it anymore. Most argue they still are worth it at the current rate but the never-ending rising tuitions may change this soon. For example, law school apps are down 11% because graduated lawyers are finding themselves unemployed. This coupled with businesses simply not paying to release people for two years to snag a MBA and the increasing viability of online technology, are leading many schools to explore distance options. You would be shocked to see how many top schools offer distance degrees (See below). Somehow, however, the Air Force has created a culture where there is no emphasis on getting a quality education except for a few very specialized individuals. This is short-sighted considering combat leaders in other services such as Petraeus carry pretty gawdy degrees (PHD from Princeton). Yet, it is not all the Air Force's fault. Many officers are unwilling to commit the time or resources to actually research various programs and get a quality degree. It almost seems every officer nowadays enrolls into AMU at the same time they enroll in SOS-C. Come on, just like anything else, a REAL masters carries REAL time and monetary commitment but it also has real rewards. Yes, the Air Force tries to get us to do everything on our own time such as CBTs, PME, Masters, etc... but I would argue that a masters is not one of the areas to skimp on. We live in a bubble in the service. While exceptions always apply, today, a masters degree is virtually required in the outside world. In my masters, I have had the opportunity to attend several in-residencies. Meeting folks from other industries and up-bringings has been eye-opening and life-changing. I was surprised to see how qualified my peers were in the program and how, I believe, Air Force officers are falling behind with regards to breadth of experience. Unless you are gunning for an airline job, trying to enter the business world at a competitive salary with no real masters degree at around the age of 35 is going to be tough. Military experience will only get us so far. The economist article: http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2011/04/higher_education?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/anewbubble A sample listing of programs from pretty damn good brick and mortar schools. Yes, many of these schools carry a high price tag, but this is off-set by the fact that you are making an income while going to school (google these programs for more info). Some have a couple of short in-residencies Stanford-SCPD Honors Co-op through the engineering department Columbia-CVN: Engineering Duke-Cross continental MBA-top 10 MBA (several in-residencies required..tough option for pilots) Indiana Univ-Kelley School-top-25 MBA UNC-chapel hill: MBA@UNC-top-25 MBA Northwestern-public policy masters NYU-HR masters Johns Hopkins-Communications masters George Washington University-PR masters Boston University-tons of stuff Penn State-tons of stuff Cornell University-Systems Engineering. Dartmouth-Public Health through Tuck School of Business

And your perspective changes completely once you are out of UPT...For example, the C-17 is a sweet plane and looks really cool so most people want it out of T-1s, but be ready to get your nuts kicked in with a pretty rough, unpredictable lifestyle. Granted, as mentioned above, there are pros and cons to every airframe so just really do your research before picking. I read posts here that say people would rather kill themselves than go RPAs, but in reality, a bunch of people are volunteering to go to them from AMC because after a few years of not being able to plan a week in advance, it gets pretty tiresome. Remember, the view from a cockpit is inside out, and no one really cares how "cool" the plane is....Lifestyle is King...UPT gives terrible poop when it comes time to helping choose the best airframe for you. So, take the decision seriously and don't arbitrarily pick an airframe based on its perceived prestige or coolness factor.

I think it is kind of ridiculous for people to seriously rely on the government and expect a retirement. I am not trying to make a political argument: rather, I think it is amazing how smart people such as military pilots are willing to toss themselves in the hands of Big Blue and expect to be taken care of forever. At the same time, people bitch and complain about getting a masters degree....something that will actually make them competitive on the outside. Oh yeah, and no one wants to pay for it, so we do the AMU route to check the box...Then, we fly around looking for tax frees, sweet per diem, and then expect to cruise into the airlines. Come on...we need to start marketing ourselves better and stop pidgeon hole-ing ourselves into a defined path. I'm not saying the military should screw us after serving our time, but I would hope to think that most of us would be competitive on the outside in other careers and that mil retirement is iceing on the cake. But, it takes some conscious planning and perhaps developing another skill/network while in the military in the quest for self-sufficiency...There is more to life than flight hours.

You probably already know, but Dover and McGuire don't have airdrop and there are not a ton of Hickam drop downs. Depending how much you want to do Air drop, I definitely recommend picking bases accordingly. Realize that if you don't go to airdrop during your first assignment, chanced of going are pretty small. There is a "window" where they normally send you to copilot airdrop. When you're a second assignment IP, that window is normally long gone. Btw, I whole-heartedly recommend picking a base with AD. It is by far the coolest thing the airplane does and deployed airdrops in afghanistan are badass. There is nothing like directly supporting the troops and working with other assets, services, etc...

Ok..Well, a serious response other than the weather. Don't worry, you won't spend much time at Mcchord...I have probably done 2 landings at home station in the year I have been at McChord. If you want to fly your ass off, this is the place to go right now. Also, the general trend right now in my squadron is to send pepes to airdrop very early. I went after only 5 months of being at the base. This is definitely awesome becvause you learn the full capabilities of the jet. I do caution you all though that flying and being gone all the time sounds great when you are in pilot training, but it definitely gets tiresome after a while. The C-17 is an awesome airplane, but realize the majority of the flying is cruising for 6 hours to a destination to drop off pallets. It cand be mind numbing. With that being said, it is deinfitely the premier airlift acft we have and is capable of diverse missions. Also, it has great bases to enjoy when you are home....Bottomline, pick an airplane based on lifestyle and not how it looks or the perception you have duting UPT...Ops tempo is high right now and expect to be on the road constantly if you pick the C-17 and McChord. If you are cool with that then great! You will have a great time...If you want more stability, then carefully analyze the plane and base you pick...

At McChord, you will definitely fly a ton as a co-pilot. Right now, expect a trip a month (10 days) at the least. Also, if you want to go Airdrop, it seems we send people to AD school pretty early up here which is good because your SA as a co-pilot benefits greatly after the school. People freak out about the UAV thing. If you do your thing, perform well as a co-pilot, you'll be safe. It is pretty much a non-factor if you are able to meet the normal upgrade standard (AC by 2 years).

As far as flying experience goes, people get all wrapped up about it. Initially, the guys with tons of hours seemed to be ahead with switchology and general flying knowledge, but guess what, the majority of people eventually caught up. I'm sure it helps with regards to air sense, etc...but as far as final class standing goes (at least in my class) it didn't mean shit. The people that did the best in my class were the ones that picked up AF flying (i stress AF) quickly. That coupled with good attitude, being a good classmate, some luck, and some politics in your favor dictated your overall performance...

The problem with this so-called "rolling the dice" for the dream of flying a fighter is that when it doesn't work out, the bitching starts. I've seen it time and again that when someone takes a gamble and loses with the T-38 thing, they then turn around and start saying, "this is crap...I fly a T-38 and deserve a fighter...why should I get a UAV, U-28 etc...? If you want to take a gamble, good for you...but if it doesn't work out, you knew the risk...The face of the AF is changing... The flavor of the week happens to be AFSOC, UAVs, the boring C-17, etc...It is time to start accepting it and realizing that entrance into the T-38 no longer necessarily endows you to fly a fighter.

I just wanted to reiterate what these guys have said above. UPT is an experience that you need to go through yourself to really understand what you want or what you are best suited to fly. I spent 1.5 yrs at Nellis around all the fighters and was absolutely convinced that I wanted to fly fighters. When you get to UPT though a series of factors to include: effort, IPs, skill, luck, weather, checkrides, class competition etc... factor in what you get at track select. You have less control than you think. That seems like a scary thought, but not really. I ended up going to heavies and got a C-17 and I am telling you, you will love whatever you end up getting and almost everyone gets what they deserve.

I also think writing bullets that show what you bring different to the pilot world. For example, I had a small amount of joint experience that I tried to highlight in my application by virtue of me going to US Military Academy. If you want a sample 215, you can pm me with a personal e-mail

XL 08-05 Behold the best t-1 drop ever C-17 Charleston x 5 C-17 McChord x 4 KC-135 Yokota C-5 Travis U-28 Hurlburt E-3 Tinker 0 Faips T-38 F-16 x 2 B-52 B-2 (actually happened) U-28 x2

XL 08-04 T-1 KC-10 Travis KC-10 Maguire C-17 McChordx 2 C-17 Charlestonx2 T-1 Faip T-6 Faip KC-135 McConnell KC-135 Mildenhall KC-135 Seymour Johnson T-38 F-16x3 B-52 T-6

just to put it into perspective with regards to getting a C-21 out of UPT, we see 1 every 3 assignment drops or so. Most have gone to Ramstein since I have been here. We also have seen 1 to Andrews, 1 to Scott, 1 to C-Springs.

There is not a MQ9 in the 08-04 laughlin drop. The drop was identical minus the reaper. flight cc's have been known in the past to put it in as a joke.

As everyone has heard and knows, pilot training has so much information to learn you don't even know where to start. Sitting from the vantage point of "Yay...I'm cool...I am starting UPT in 5 months," it may seem that a PC sim would help. Just realize there is so much crap to do at the beginning of UPT just learning the basic systems and how to memorize pieces of the dash 1 when you hit phase II, if you spend more than 3 seconds on microsoft flight sim, you are wasting your time. Why? Because there is more important sh!t to do. I admit, I bought the joystick and throttle and downloaded the T-38 and T-6 before UPT. I came to find out, the only utility I got out of it was entertainment and playing pretend pilot before showing up to training. Should have saved the money...Trust me, your simming equipment will collect dust once you get to UPT and you will practice your "instrument crosscheck" during the 30ish instrument sims/flights you will have. Put down the sim...go drink and be merry instead.

Flight simulators will help you pretty much 0 in UPT. Why? A sim doesn't come with: 1. An instructor in the back seat 2. P-factor 3. Helmet/Mask 4. Patterns with 10 initial solos trying to kill you 5. Local ass pain procedures 6. standups/EPQs Go buy or pay for instead

I e-mailed the AFPC assignment folks a while back about this. For people on AD going to UPT, you have to initiate your security clearance before arriving to UPT. This is something that is done through your squadron security guy and is pretty easy. Submit paperwork and let OSI do the rest.

Dude, if you are really worried about the corneal topo, go to a civilian eye doctor and have one done. I did this, it cost me 40 bucks, and put my mind at ease. The statistics are in your favor for not having keratoconus or keratoconus suspect.

I was a little confused and concerned as to what exactly happens at Military Flight Screening for active duty/ANG. I just got back and I wanted to provide some info of exactly what to expect. Obviously, I can't talk about how to do the exact tests, but hopefully this will help with regards to how the process works. The Brooks website goes into some detail but here is some first hand experience if interested. Here's how it went... First, when you fly into San Antonio, go over to the USO in the terminal. they will call a Fiesta shuttle for you that is $25 to brooks opposed to a $40 taxi ride. In addition, you may be able to meet some people going to brooks with you. Fiesta will bring you straight to billeting where you will get a room assigned to you. Most people seem to stay on base, but there is non-availability. If you can get off-base hotels you may be better off because there are restaurants outside such as BDub's and a Chili's. There is no food on base unless you walk a mile to the chow hall. The O'club no longer serves food so we ended up walking about a mile to Chilis. In the morning, you have to be outside lodging at 0645 for a bus to bring you over to the clinic. If you are staying at a hotel off-base, a shuttle will pick you up there also (see Brooks site for times). Once you arrive, you are placed in a waiting room with the rest of the people you are there with (we had a large group with about 14). The person in charge of MFS will come talk to you about what to expect. He said that 2-4% of people going through MFS will be DQ's but 95% of all stuff they find is waiverable. He also mentioned how important it is to not talk about the actual tests with each other. They make you fill out some paperwork and also collect a copy of your flight physical with the stamped "FC1A approved pending MFS". As of now, you don't have to bring your whole medical records. They then conduct height measurements to make sure you fit in the cockpit (i.e. height, knee to butt length, sitting height). They also collect $7 if you want pizza for lunch After the admin stuff, they bring you down to do the psychological testing on computers. It is not disqualifying, but serves as a benchmark for the future in case you receive a head injury. They can then test you and compare your pre-injury mental state with your mental state after injury. They can then determing your physical status and how long until you can fly again if ever. All these tests last till about 1130 or 1200. After this, you return to the waiting room and eat lunch. Right after lunch, they bring a few at a time back to get an echocardiogram done. This is where they take a video of your heart to make sure all your valves work and that the blood flows properly. It is pretty crazy to see your heart like that. After that, you go back to the waiting room and wait for a few more tests to include corneal topography , color vision test, and red lens test. The corneal topography makes sure you have a smooth cornea and that you did not lie about having PRK. The red lens test makes sure that your eyes work together and that there are not any depth perception issues. Finally, the color vision test is pretty self-explanatory. The color vision test is not too bad but it is more thorough than the FC1 exam. If all goes well, that is all the tests they do (no blood pressure, no depth perception, no vision checks,no blood work, etc.. Actually, you never see a doctor unless there is a problem). They then give you a sheet saying that you passed MFS! Most people get out of there by 1530. Now, with that said, if you had PRK, plan to have to stay longer and probably come back a second day for a more thorough eye exam. The optometrist will have to take a look at you more closely. In addition, if there are any blemishes on your FC1, they will look at you more closely. For example, on my FC1, I had an issue with a test, so I had to come back the next day for a depth perception exam. If at all possible, make sure your physical is accurate and complete before your base sends it to AETC. If there are any blemishes, they will dig some at MFS and you want to avoid that if at all possible. Out of our group of 14, I believe 5 had to come back for some kind of further testing. As for the staff, I would characterize them as moderately friendly. To their credit, they have a tough job having to test a bunch of agitated future flyers worried about being DQ'd. Don't expect much feedback from them (no news is good news). Actually, you are not even allowed to ask how you are doing. At the end of the day, if you get a sheet then that means you passed everything. They are good about informing you, however, if they noticed an issue, but they won't tell you during the test. They will approach you later in the day and tell you what further tests need to be done, if any. Realize, if something comes up on a test, they won't just kick you out the door with a DQ. They will conduct extensive tests to determine your qual status. It just becomes a pain in the ass because that is where the digging starts and the chances increase that they will find something. Overall, there is not a whole lot to worry about because the MFS physical is not very extensive. They are not trying to eliminate you from flying. If something comes up at Brooks or on your FC1 paperwork, however, they will conduct further tests which I would be lying if I said they were fun. According to their stats, though, all turns out well for at least 96% of the people that come through. Pretty good odds if you ask me...let me know if you have any questions. -spaw