UPT grading

[Guest eagledriver]

I understand the basic U,F,G,E and downgrade grading system at UPT but I was wondering exactly what types of things count as downgrades during flights? How much do you have to bust airspeed or altitude to get a downgrade? what other things would you get a downgrade for? what things would cause you to hook a ride? if you have specific examples from rides that would help. Thanks.

[T6Driver]

The IPs are supposed to grade you according to the course training standards listed in the syllabus. Unfortunately, the grades they give you aren't as black and white as what the syllabus states so they end up being pretty subjective. Check out the T-6 syllabus and it should give you an idea of what they're looking for (start at page 13).

http://www.t6driver.com/jsupt/jppt_jsupt_syllabus.pdf

[Guest kirkhac]

Like T6Driver said, there are course training standards that define what a good is. Most of the judgment is left in the IP's hands though. For instance, if the parameters for a particular manuver are +or- 200 ft and you are bouncing around 400 ft, that probably will not get you a good even though that's okay by the book. It's pretty subjective and all IP's grade differently. The best advice I can give you is don't get too wrapped up in grades. Do your best, study hard, and good grades will follow.

[Guest CBStud]

First off grades mean about as much as my opinion does in a group of weapons school guys discussing tactics. Second of all, even if you are within the CTS you will, more often than not, only be graded to MIF. If on your first ride you fly a perfect sortie you will still get grades of U or maybe F because that's what's required at that point per the syllabus. Grades mean very little and are very subjective. In my experience, the better overall ride you have the better your individual grades are because the IP walks away from the ride thinking "kick ass." Anyway, grades are the IP's responsibility not yours so don't worry about them.

[Spartacus]

Has anyone else felt that they don't really know what is going on with their grading in UPT? It seems like sometimes it's really subjective and dependent on the instructor. On certain flights I fly really good and the instructor gives me an "E" and then on my next flight I feel like I did even better and the instructor gives me a "G".

How much do daily rides factor into your overall grades? Does anyone on here have something that tells how all of the grading works etc?

Also, we had standup today and I got stood up. It was a pretty difficult standup, at least for me, but I seemed to do ok. (I didn't get sat down or anything.) However, later on in the day I looked at my file on the computer and I saw that an entry had been made saying that my standup was marginal. What does that mean? Did I hook it or what? I would assume that I didn't because they didn't say anything about it to me but why would they put that in the computer? I just hate how the IP's just don't tell you things sometimes. Is all of this normal or what?

[Toro]

(Dusts off cobwebs)

I'll preface all this with the fact that I left FAIPdom in 2000. Much of this may have changed - ENJJPT IP can probably give you a good answer.

Originally posted by IwannaGoFast:

On certain flights I fly really good and the instructor gives me an "E" and then on my next flight I feel like I did even better and the instructor gives me a "G".

The overall grade doesn't mean anything - the overall grade is a subjective to that particular IP and should be relative to your overall performance for your phase in the syllabus. He may think it was a great ride, but your IP may have flown with an outstanding ride with a student the day before - that would make you just average.

Originally posted by IwannaGoFast:

How much do daily rides factor into your overall grades? Does anyone on here have something that tells how all of the grading works etc?

IIRC, the overall doesn't mean anything - it is the subjective perception of the IP on how you did overall. The individual grades are what matter. Somewhere (I believe in the back of the syllabus) is a MIF (Maneuver Item File?) that specifies exactly what you have to do to get an item up to a 'Good' standard. When your final class rank is calculated, it scores every single one of the items in your rides. I don't believe it counts that overall grade into the equation.

I saw that an entry had been made saying that my standup was marginal. What does that mean? Did I hook it or what?

Where's your assigned IP? He should be the first person you ask - that's his job. As far as getting the marginal, you should have been told immediately following the EP. I doubt you hooked, as this should have grounded you for the day until you could be re-tested.

Again - caveat with I've been out of the white jet loop for a while.

[Vetter]

If you just started Phase 3, every standup is going to be marginal. Just because you didn't get sat down doesn't mean you didn't mess up. Get used to being called "average" or "slightly below average". That said, go ask your USEM what you need to improve on in order to do better. He may give you crap, but he'll respect you for it.

[Flare]

Toro is pretty much spot on with all of his comments. The overall grade for your sortie does not matter......it's the individual grades for the ride that go into your score....albeit a pretty small portion. The biggest chunk of it comes (sts) from your checkrides. And yes, you are right, all of your grades ARE very subjective. While all of us IPs try to grade again the Phase Training Standards (Toro, MIF just lists each item to be accomplished and what grade it needs to be by end of block....PTS actually defines numbers such as airspeed +- 10KIAS, etc), it's the grey areas that are up to our interpretation. And, unfortunately for you, those grey areas usually make up about 90% of the sortie....very rarely is anything black and white. That's why we get paid the big bucks..to make those decisions.

Originally posted by Vetter:

If you just started Phase 3, every standup is going to be marginal.

No shlt? EVERY one? Or even almost every one? You all really give marginals out at the beginning of a phase? So basically, you expect them to be proficient in them that early...no learning curve? Hmmmm.......

Either way, unless they really do give all marginals at the beginning of a phase(NOT how we do it at Sheppard), your USEM/SELO should have definately told you if you received a marginal....

[ 05. January 2007, 07:29: Message edited by: ENJJPT IP ]

[Vetter]

Being a former USEM, I saw some of the worst buffoonery right at the beginning...during the "20 Day Program". Basically, the student is given every single EXACT EP that will be given during the first 20 days. They probably even have the EXACT slides. So yes, during the first 20 days, I expect them to be perfect since everything for the most part is rote (they should go home the night before and memorize how to do it). They may not have the local area procedures down and what not, but they should be able to handle the emergency because they should have already seen the EXACT one. That said, if a student makes more than a few small mistakes (nothing unsafe), I start to question his/her prep...and even though he may not get sat down, he probably did a marginal job. I would say early on, 50% of the EPs meet this criteria.

I had a huge problem with the same thing when I was a student. I payed too much attention to the grades and not enough attention to the debrief because I was pissed at myself for not getting an E on a maneuver and what not. About halfway through PIT, I started not giving a sh!t about grades and low and behold, I started flying better. The earlier you learn this, the better.

ENJPPT IP, I think there is and should be a difference in how things are done between Phase 2 and 3. I expect a student coming into T-38s to show at least some SA and airmanship.

Iwannagofast, if it was unclear why you got a marginal, ask. Ask but don't quibble. It'll all play out in the end and you'll get the airplane you deserve. You gotta check your ego at the door, put your hard hat on and realize that it's gonna suck...until you get good. Any questions...PM me.

[ 05. January 2007, 13:31: Message edited by: Vetter ]