Winning the war (On SNAPS and shoe clerks)

[Stiffler]

Feel free to delete this if you deem it inappropriate.

However, many of the posts we have somehow end up showing our disdain for how the new and sensitive AF has shed the traditions of the past.

Somehow, we have to begin to swing the momentum back to our favor. What are some suggestions? Realistically?

I think just by people talking about it, and doing so publically in the squadron, we can drum up momentum. When folks dont say anything because someone might disagree/get offended, or there is some 0-6 in the room, we do no one any favors. In my squadron, we are pushing to bring a bar back, since it was supposedly canxed a few years ago. While that is gonna be a tough battle, even the attempt is swinging the momentum a tad, and discussion is being had.

The big issue is realizing that its not a lost battle. But it will be lost if we dont do anything, and time continues to separate how it was, and how it is.

So, anyone have any ideas or thoughts on the subject?

"Culture is important..." Someone important

Stiffler

[Stiffler]

Oh ya.

Obviously its important to indoctrinate new guys when they get to the squadrons. Fighter squadrons seem to still be pretty good at that, but heavy squadrons arent. The CGO's need to take the new guys under their wings, and stress the importance of culture, and not getting spun up over stupid staff issues. The goal is to be a good pilot and kill the enemy (even for heavy pilots) not to make 0-6.

IMHO

[HerkDerka]

I've been seeing some positive shifts around. My squadron finally has the bar up and running, complete with relics of our recent and past combat history. Definite improvement in morale.

You shacked it Guarddude. The key is to talk. Get other people talking. The leadership (even if they are careerists) will listen when the whole squadron's talking.

Getting people to hear you is the shoe clerk's game and people are getting tired of the PC shoe clerk crap. Beat them at their own game.

And "2" on the new guys. If you don't squash the SNAPness, it will thrive.

HD

[USAF Pilot]

My Sq used to have one. Then after a succession of Mormon type SQCCs, we lost it. That and the 0-0-1-2-3 or whatever that gay polcy is about drinking didn't help matters.

Also I'd say SQ leadership is afraid that it will get nailed to the wall if there is an alcohol incident and it could be somehow traced back to the SQ bar. It’s sad that we’ve come to this but they’re probably right. They would get nailed to the wall. Or at least some wall to wall counseling.

Fun meter says, "THIS SH!T IS GAY!"

[FireMission]

Originally posted by GuardDude:

The goal is to be a good pilot and kill the enemy (even for heavy pilots) not to make 0-6.

....also a good WSO/NAV/EWO/FCO... CSO - ugh- and kill the enemy...

everyone always leaves us out.

[Vandal]

Is it possible to combat this at lower levels, say your local ROTC detatchment? You have to start early to get the best results.

[Toasty]

ROTC, save the Det/CC, is run by non-flyers. That's probably a likely birthing area. A couple guys I know are fighting it at that level, but being cadets, they just end up getting in trouble.

[LockheedFix]

The 36 AS at Yokota has made a huge stride in this arena. We are breaking ground in a week or two on a brand new bar. We got a lot of support from the OG/CC and the SQ/CC as far as getting the funds in fall out money for it. It was snatched from the grips of shoe clerk death several times, but right at the end of the FY it was moved way up on the list and became a top priority for the base.

KUDOS to those two commanders for fighting the good fight and also to this board's kenblankenship for doing the leg work for it.

[Stiffler]

Ya, IN my squadron, we are alot of partiers (milwaukee...we invented beer) however, about 5 years ago, some army pukes f'ed up on the state level, and the state TAG issued a blanked no bar except at the club policy. So we have a club, which is nice, but its not pilot eccentric. So we go there, talk about flying, and everyone *****es because all we do is talk about flying. IN my wing, the pilots dont run the place...because you have people that have been around 40 years, so power ebbs and flows alot more rapidly.

We had a beer machine and a bar, but it was shut down after the TAG memo. Now the powers that be dont wanna sign their name to reopening a bar, because 50 people will die if they do (of course, thats their dreams.)

[Stiffler]

Oh ya, cut your pen flap, wear moral patches, and roll up your sleeves. Small victories!

[Dupe]

Do you want a bar, but your squadron doesn't have one? Here's the solution: build one. Get your Lts together on a weekend, buy the keg first, and go to town. Once the boss sees the bros having a good time, it will be tough for him to say "tear that down." The bar is your sanctuary from all things silly and queepy. A good LPA can get anything done. Anything.

[Bergman]

Originally posted by Bender:

Yeah, maybe one of these days that popcorn machine is gonna find it's way out of the mobility bay!

Gonna have the sweet sweet smell of the jalapeno poppers!!!

kenblankenship, move your feet!

I'll help you carry it upstairs this week. We can put it in Tactics right next to my desk. Thanks, man.

BENDY

Speaking of popcorn machines...

WHERE CAN I FIND ONE? I have several leads from websites, but would entertain any inputs from here before buying. Anyone have particularly good luck with a certain vendor, brand, or model? Right now I'm looking at a 6 oz. kettle model for $450.

In a move certain to piss off the shoe clerks, I am trying to get the family support office to "loan" us theirs since it's storage 364 days a year. I'll post an update if I can ever get them to spine up for a yes/no answer.

We, too, do NOT have a bar. Very sad. Until about a year ago, there was NO beer on premises (due to a previous WG/CC getting a DUI 3 years ago and everyone running scared in the aftermath). So a few of us just started bringing cases of beer to drill weekends and hanging out on the patio after hours. We're up to 20 or so regulars, which is about 1/3 of the squadron. Plus we've re-instituted the "2 beer debrief" on night sorties and added a dollar bill changer to the beer machine. So...guess the lesson is BE PROACTIVE. No one ever said we couldn't have beer, so why not try.

[KennyB]

Originally posted by LockheedFix:

The 36 AS at Yokota has made a huge stride in this arena. We are breaking ground in a week or two on a brand new bar. We got a lot of support from the OG/CC and the SQ/CC as far as getting the funds in fall out money for it. It was snatched from the grips of shoe clerk death several times, but right at the end of the FY it was moved way up on the list and became a top priority for the base.

KUDOS to those two commanders for fighting the good fight and also to this board's kenblankenship for doing the leg work for it.

What really made it happen was the entire LPA coming together and making the LTCs and COLs know that we wanted it. There were lots of ups and downs, and in the end we were granted over $100k for the room construction and furniture.

THE 36 AS HERITAGE/BAR WILL FREAKIN ROCK!!

As far as popcorn machines, I got a pretty sweet Budweiser popcorn machine for us from http://www.esbuys.com/. They were extremely flexible with pricing and shipping considering we are in Japan. The machine I ordered is pictured here . Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet...

PM me for details.

Death to the disco belt!

[Fast_N_Low135]

We have a pilot that brings a huge cooler of beer on TDY's for the crew chiefs, all we have to do is buy him a case of bud. Its a good deal that i don't want going away.

[Stiffler]

Ya, TDY's are one thing, but around the squadron is another. People are just scared cuz we have a balls ton of LT Col's now, which is when they SHOULDNT care anymore.

[Baseops.Net]

I'll tell you how to win the war -- keep the comments and gouge coming in to baseops. I'll post them and the whole world will see it...

Check out the email I just got in response to multiple crew dogs submitting stinging reviews of Mildenhall billeting:

Mildenhall update submitted by Billeting Manager, 11/21/06 -- "I'm the lodging manager at RAFM, your review of my property is outdated and I thought I'd give you an update. Building 402- the one with the common bathrooms and showers has been closed since November of '05. It never was a true 'open bay' facility as reported. All of the rooms were furnished with 2 single beds. The Bird in Hand is under new management and they have renovated their rooms, so they no longer have 'rotting carpets,' paper thin walls are however just part of British construction. Most of the buildings on RAF Mildenhall were built 25 or more years ago on a two pipe system. That unfortunately means that they either the heat is on or off- very little individual control. Every guest room has a radiator on the wall with a valve to adjust waterflow through it. It's always been that way, I guess the contributor couldn't figure it out. We've remodeled our front desk completely well over a year ago and it rarely takes 45 minutes to check in a crew these days. We do try very hard to accommodate."

Moral of the story -- keep the reviews coming in. For all of you that have experienced a TDY down at the Basic Airborne Course (BAC), Ft. Benning remember the fat cat jumpmaster that bought a hotel and enticed crews to stay there with great service... But then they ended up on the contact quarters list -- then it was terrible service, absolute squalor in the rooms, etc. UNTIL their hotel review ended up on baseops.net and then guess what? No more business from the crew dogs 2xC130 + 1xC141 crews is a lot of business they just lost.

[Stiffler]

Good job dude. WHat that proves is just how widespread baseops is, and the impact it can have. Among those of us on here, probably every squadron around the country and world is represented somehow. We can make real progress in this "war" but we all have to do our part

[Guest pcoandgo]

Don't give up the fight! I understand having good order and discipline, but as military members, we don't need mommy telling us what to do! 99.9% of the military will act like adults when given the opportunity to do so. It's disgusting to see some of the bullshit that goes on. Keep it short of mutiny, but unite and fight for your rights. Sounds really corny when it's put like that, but that's the best way I can phrase it.

Rule #1: Look out for your buddy! As long as you have each other's backs, you're solid.

Rule #2: Follow rule #1.

People with miserable existences who think they're entitled to more, and feel oh so left out by the camraderie inherent to Flight Crews will always seek to jam up those they're jealous of. ENOUGH! If that's what you want, change your ****ing job. Accept your station in life if you can't or won't get that "exciting" job. Everyone is where they are by their OWN design!!!!!!

These are great forums, and regardless of mission, platform, or viewpoint, we ALL like to have fun. It can and should be so.

--end of rant--

[KickChick21]

Something occurred to me as I was reading this thread. Maybe some of the misunderstanding and discord between flyers and non-flyers has something to do with reasons for being in the AF.

For example, those who join the AF to fly have a pretty good idea of what they're going to be doing, and generally their goals center around flying and being involved in the mission directly. Others join for benefits the AF offers, or job security, or wanting to get training in a job while serving their country. Those are all good reasons for joining as well, but when your goals center around completing a degree cheaply, or traveling, or getting free training, or good health/insurance benefits, you might look at things differently.

I'm not sure how to say what I'm trying to say. I guess I was just thinking about when I was in basic training. Out of 60 girls in my flight, I was the ONLY ONE who joined the military because I wanted to be in the military. Everyone else was in for education, travel, medical benefits, etc, and they seemed to forget they joined the military ("why do we have to stand at attention, why am I getting in trouble, why do we have to do PT"). Only one of them was a flyer (AWACS) and she had some sense of pride in what she was doing and seemed serious about being in the military, but nobody else seemed to care as much.

There are certainly lots of people in non-flying jobs that care about their jobs and the mission, but they seem to be outnumbered by people who lose sight of the "big picture" and what's really important.

Just a thought. A really long thought.

[M2]

Originally posted by pcoandgo:

99.9% of the military will act like adults when given the opportunity to do so.

Obviously you've never been a commander...or worked with the US Army.

Not that I agree with all the PC kneejerk reactions, but go back and read this thread for example. Sometimes the actions are warranted, and the responsibility doesn't stop at the Wing King's desk. It trickles down to every officer and NCO in the unit.

Were things different back in the "ol' days?" Yep. Better? Maybe. Worse. Could've been. Probably a mixture of both. The challenge is to find what works and do it, and what doesn't work and discard it. Or at least do the best you can at both.

Cheers! M2

[Guest pcoandgo]

I hear what you're saying M2. I guess it boils down to the fact that the UCMJ, NJP, and EMI are the tools with which to hammer someone that's fvcking up. Leave everyone alone until such time as they fvck it up. Then, hammer the person(s) involved and move on. Don't just mommy everyone to death.