GWOT

[MD]

[Attempting to give a "second chance" to what's, IMHO, a great topic of conversation that's quite interesting. Would just wish people can keep things civil and make good, valid points. Mods, if you don't like this, that's cool, but I ask that it be given another chance to work; and if it doesn't, then oh well....we ruined it ourselves]

I'd like to address the issue of how we're prosecuting our current war from two personal viewpoints: 1. As a member of the US military, and 2. As a US taxpayer; since reading the last closed thread, IMO, some people were getting this distinction blurred.

As a member of the military, there may be ROE I don't personally agree with, or that I think might be a hinderance, etc. But as that professional who's doing the job I was hired and trained to do, I have a responsibility to do the mission and exercise any personal initiative to the extent the ROE allows. It's not my call to make my own rules up as I see fit; regardless of how I feel about them. If I wish to do that, I shouldn't be in the job I'm in. The ROE is published, and I may personally agree or disagree with it, but I follow it to the max extent possible, deviating (I would think) in an emergency situation if need be. But that would be an unusual situation and definitely not the norm. Whether other people like snake eaters or the like have different or even no ROE isn't any of my concern. I work with what I'm given the best I can. That's how it works.

As a US taxpayer, however, my beef concerning ROE has nothing to directly do with the military at all, only indirectly. Everything I feel about how the military relates to ROE is covered in the paragraph above. Any beef I have with my perceived overly-restrictive or one-hand-behind-back ROE rests solely with our elected civilian leadership. IMHO, if our leadership focuses too much on PC or worldwide appeasement, our ability to make progress in the GWOT is going to be severely curtailed. We're never going to win the hearts and minds of the islamofacists; just as we're never going to appease everyone in the world as to our foreign policy. Does this mean our government should just tell the world to piss off, and we go our own way? Of course not. But we can't roll over to the world whim of appeasment either. If we do, and I sense we might be seeing this now, all that's going to happen is that the war is going to drag on. This will serve to do no more than get more of our guys killed, and both these elements will combine to erode public opinion and support for GWOT foreign policy. Once that happens, we can say hello to the spectre of Vietnam all over again. Am I saying the GWOT should be able to be accomplished in a day? Of course not. But it too needs to be balanced against being dragged on. We need to have the will to do what's necessary to achieve our political goals, without needlessly expending American lives. Sure, death is to be expected and often can't be avoided in the military line of work....military members signed on the dotted line and know full well the risk factor; but I would wish for the elected leadership to take all resonable steps to not hinder our troops' ability to accomplish the mission they assigned to them. Nor would I want our troops to be in harms way any longer than they need to be. Just because the troops signed the dotted line, doesn't make them cannon fodder, regardless of the instruments of policy they may happen to be. If our elected leadership gives the troops a mission, the elected leadership better have the will to win. If they've lost said will, or never really had it; then the GWOT will never achieve it's stated goals; and all that will come out of it is more bodybags filled, from all sides. How then the leadership will justify the US lives lost to the American public, will be interesting to see.

Just one man's 2 cents on the matter. Have BTDT, multiple times, both OEF and OIF, if that means anything.

Would like to close with this interesting letter regarding one man's perception of the people we're fighting, sent to me by a friend:

Count me among those who's starting to reconsider my tolerance toward Islam.

Sorry, but these people have done it to themselves. A simple joke and they riot in the streets by the millions, firebomb buildings, burn effigies and American and Israeli flags. I'm sure with this simple speech - quotes of which have been completely distorted and taken entirely out of context, I might add - will accomplish the same thing.

Wasn't it just the other day that Muslims were ready to walk out on Musharraff for trying to undo a law that essentially promotes the rape of women in Pakistan?

Isn't it in Turkey where women are forced to commit 'honor suicides' if they've been rumored to have had sex or merely sexual interest in a man before they've come of age?

Muslims preach that they want tolerance and acceptance and yet their rhetoric if filled with anti-Jewish and anti-Christian venom. And every time one of these incidents which unfairly maligns the image of the religion of peace comes into full view, it's always the same old people asking us to be dismissive of it, with the same old whiney-ass crap: "Well if the U.S. would just get out of Iraq and stop supporting Israel, we wouldn't have Islamic fundamentalism'.

Yeah, the end of imperialism sure helped France, didn't it? Oh wait, no it didn't - Al Qaida vowed to support Algerians in their campaign against the French infidels (didn't France leave Algeria already - like freaking 40 years ago?!)

It's time for this supposedly overwhelmingly large majority of Muslims to confront this supposedly microscopically small minority of radicals who defile their 'religion' and say 'enough of this stuff - using whatever means they have to. Otherwise - and I hate to say stuff like this - but it might get to the point where outside powers have to take more dramatic measures to do it themselves.

I guess the lesson to be learned from this is that we all have to watch every little thing we say in public when we're addressing Islam, because regardless of however well-intentioned we may be, fundamentalists will extract anything they can possibly find as evidence that Islam is under Western assault. Of course that is not the case at all, but there's no speaking to this supposedly microscopically small minority of people who are defiling the 'religion of peace'.

Muslim people will have to decide. Either they they want the full fanatic islamic program or the want to live in the West. But they can't have it both. Over here people are no longer willing to tolerate their intolerance. And while some politicians are still blabbing around that "we have to integrate them" word on the street is that they have to integrate themselves, that THEY have to understand and respect OUR culture and values and not the other way round or they should go somewhere else. And we are not talking about the dumb shitheads who hate anything they don't understand. By now people DO understand.

And as a matter of fact many of them have integrated themselves and are doing just fine. On the other hand companys schedule breaks for their prayers and make sure the company restaurant offers at least one dish without pork meat and so on. But if it comes to things like free speech or that women can choose their husband themselves I'm afraid they will have to accept that.

It makes you realize - or at least it should - that given the fact that we have to be so impossibly circumspect, the reality is that Islam as it is practiced by far too many is incompatible with Western civilization. It is incompatible with the Western traditions of secularism. It is incompatible with free speech, the freedom of religion, and host of other liberties we have come to embrace in the West over the last few centuries. Islam is incompatible with our ways of life, which is why Europe should keep Turkey out of the European Union, and why the rest of us should not permit too many immigrants from Muslim countries. When the situation changes, when Islam can prove itself to be taken by more moderating influences, then our perceptions of Islam will change. But not until then, nor should they.

But the world is watching Islam very, very closely now. The Muslim world may not realize it, but everyone else has about had enough of their crap. They're like a ten year old child that comes from a broken home: you feel sorry for the fact that they come from the broken home, but that sympathy only goes so far - you can't keep ignoring it when they keep causing melees in the school cafeteria.

[ 26. September 2006, 20:40: Message edited by: MD ]

[Guest Hoser]

MD,

1) As a mil member, good, bad or indifferent, the ROE is what it is, and I follow it to the best of my abilities.

2) As a tax paying American, I'm a firm believer that you fight an eye for an eye, etc. The Muslim a-holes that flew airplanes into buildings on 9-11, didn't care about people grieving over the death of others. Take a look at Flight 93. Passenger Lauren Grandcolas was returning home after attending her grandmother's funeral in NJ. Passenger John Talignani was enroute to claim the body of his step son who had died in a car accident. Where was the compassion for them?????

My personal belief is that when you fight a war, you use every available asset to get your knee in their chest and a knife in their throat. If that takes killing the enemy in their house, in a cave, praying, on the way to the store, attending a funeral, then so be it. If that's what it takes to instill the fear that no matter where they go or what they do, we will bring death to them, then lets do it.

If you're in a fair fight, you didn't plan properly!

Cap-10

[ 26. September 2006, 21:54: Message edited by: Cap-10 ]

[joe1234]

I had kind of touched on this in the other thread, but I think I can spout off my opinion in a better context.

About ROE: we do not exist in a vacuum. America as a country consists of more than just its military. As such, things which may seem ridiculous to us, such as, say, not bombing a funeral, is probably perfectly sensible to another part. I think the problem that we as military members have is forgetting this. Everyone's an armchair president.

Anyway, when I think about the GWOT, I try to take an objective look at both sides. On one side you have the strongest nation in the world with vast resources and a determined and effective military. On the other side, you have a loose network of extremists, fierce determination, yet a total lack of resources. Their primary strength is their ability to life "off the grid" and have a decentralized structure of control. After all, if we knew we could bomb the leadership and "sever the head off the body", it would have been done 5 years ago.

I believe that our enemy is a lot smarter than we give them credit for. They know that we abide by treaties and agreements like the Geneva conventions. They know that we can't do certain things because while it brings us one step forward in the GWOT, it takes us two steps backwards in other matters, be it diplomatic relations or domestic support. They also know that despite our ability to place bombs precisely anywhere we want, this precision is completely useless if we don't know who or what to target. And much like the NVA, they realize that the biggest weakness of our military is the will of the American people. Because if the civilians don't support us being there, especially in an election year, we're getting yanked out of there faster than you can say "fall of Saigon". Unlike Vietnam, however, the majority of the voting public still supports us being there -- although this November may tell a different story.

So having set all this up, I believe it's good to take the fight to the terrorists and all, but I'm really doubting the long-term effectiveness of it. Terrorists will always exist, and will always regenerate. It's like trying to cut 10 acres of lawn with a push mower. By the time you're done going through it all, the area where you started has already grown back. There's no real measuring stick to see if what we're doing is truly working other than "have we been attacked at home lately?", and even using that is specious reasoning.

Here's my concern though: what happens when a far greater and imminent threat comes along that requires more of our attention? Nukes in Iran? Nukes in South Korea? Or any host of possible conflicts.

[ 27. September 2006, 21:16: Message edited by: joe1234 ]

[Guest KoolKat]

Thanks MD, you are right…this topic is very interesting. It would be great to have a mature discussion. I will attempt to avoid dragging the conversation anywhere but the glide slope. Hopefully the moderators can make small and timely adjustments to help make the conversation stay that way.

As a military member, I honestly feel the exact same way as I do as an American tax payer. I get to play a much greater role as a military member, although, as stated ROE do limit that role, which can be frustrating at times.

However, ROE are not just born of thin air. Some very smart people have work very hard to boil down long term objectives into a set of tenets that we should adhere to now, so that we may realize our goals of the future. The future being 10, 20, 100 years down the line. I wasn’t in on that conversation; it’s not my place to discount or neglect the ROE. I feel its fine to question, or even criticize them when I don’t understand or disagree (understanding my limited knowledge of a lot of the basis for them.)

So, all my thoughts being equal: I’m pretty young. I should be wrapping up the first third of my life in a few years. Islam on the other hand, not so much. It is as old as dirt. Personally, I’m not a big fan (although I haven’t managed to read the whole Koran, nor Bible for that matter.) My only point here is that Islam is f_cking old. With Islam has come a culture, a way of life that is just as old and just as important to those that have it. It isn’t my place to tell them it’s better or worse than what I have right now.

Democracy/America/The West/Constitutional Rights, whatever you want to call my culture has an age that pales in comparison. That’s not really important, but it’s basically a 1 day old infant in comparison. It’s a pretty good looking baby if you ask me.

You can deny it if you want to, but every single human being is resistant to change in some way, on some level. The longer something goes on, the harder it is to change and the harder one will fight not too. Especially if change is being imposed and especially if one doesn’t really want change. You can’t make someone think your baby is pretty; they have to decide that for themselves.

Something so big, something so old…You certainly must understand that fighting for something larger than yourself. It can be intoxicating. Sometimes it’s not even clear what it is exactly that you’re fighting for outside of the vaguest generality. Sometimes, you might even end up fighting in the wrong place or at the wrong time…or blowing yourself up or crashing aircraft your flying into buildings. It can be intoxicating.

Things don’t happen over night; they never have and never will. As a tax payer, I see my money spent as an extremely small piece of the pie. We are going somewhere. Where that is I’m not totally sure, but I sure do have my visions of it. It’s a pretty baby. It’s just got a good while left in mommy’s oven.

We were fighting this war long before I was born; granted much more indirectly, but fighting all the same. I certainly don’t expect the world to solve itself nor for everyone to just get along…not tomorrow, not even in my lifetime. I’ll help keep fighting and one day we’ll see that pretty baby. There are a lot of pieces that need to develop and have a long way to go, including “us.”

Sometimes I wonder if I even make sense. That’s usually the thought when I stop talking. Hah. Enjoy your conversation; I look forward to the different contributions.

BENDY

[Anon Ymous]

This is definitely a topic that deserves real and civil debate and I too hope it stays that way.

Originally posted by MD:

It makes you realize - or at least it should - that given the fact that we have to be so impossibly circumspect, the reality is that Islam as it is practiced by far too many is incompatible with Western civilization. It is incompatible with the Western traditions of secularism. It is incompatible with free speech, the freedom of religion, and host of other liberties we have come to embrace in the West over the last few centuries. Islam is incompatible with our ways of life, which is why Europe should keep Turkey out of the European Union, and why the rest of us should not permit too many immigrants from Muslim countries. When the situation changes, when Islam can prove itself to be taken by more moderating influences, then our perceptions of Islam will change. But not until then, nor should they.

The writer of this could not be more right. Islam and western culture are not compatible, and vice versa. However, in my opinion an Islamic person, or nation for that matter, has no requirement to reform their beliefs to fit those of western societies. An Islamic nation can coexist in the world community just fine even with all of their restrictions on liberty.

The problem comes when the radicals in the Muslim community take it upon themselves to kill others for basically not being a Muslim.

Regarding the GWOT, Joe, your metaphor about mowing a 10-acre lawn with a push mower is perfect. Yes, the fight does have to be taken to the terrorists. But a war on an ideal such as terrorism is about as effective as a War on Drugs. Realizing that the "war on drugs" is executed by completely different means (military vs. police) the comparison is in the idea. Much like the war on Terror several billions of dollars have been spent on fighting drugs without much to vouch for.

[ 27. September 2006, 16:30: Message edited by: PilotGonnaBe ]

[MD]

YGBSM. Yet more.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6092700996.html

Again and again we self-censor. We pass restrictive laws supposedly to protect ourselves physically, and now society and its institutions feel it necessary to restrict our access to culture and ideas, so our minds and spirits are also now being restricted. And we're supposedly winning the GWOT. One may think a mere opera is unimportant, but the terrorists must be amazed we are giving in so quickly. Bin Laden said back in the 1990s when he was organizing that he suspected the West was a soft touch. Nice to know that the west (all inclusive) is proving him more and more correct.