Laser Guided

[AOF_ATC]

Next time someone says an Air Force pilot doesn't know what he's bombing, show them this

Laser Guided

Awesome video showing a nice view of laser guidance against a group of insurgents. Evidently the insurgents were chased out of the "safe house" and when they were on the street were bombed with a 500lber.

Makes me want to get in the fight.

[ 20. April 2006, 11:59: Message edited by: JasonG ]

[Steve Davies]

Jason

This clip has been subject to a range of valid questions regarding the PID and CDE of the people that were dropped on. In the interviews I've seen with USAF spokespeople, no convincing answer has been given that explains how the FAC(A), TAC(P) or whoever could have ID'd them as hostile. I've heard the story that they came out of a house known to harbour insurgents, and that the group were aggressively approaching an Army checkpoint, but neither of these 'facts' has been publicly acknowledged by the armed forces, AFAIK.

I'm not privy to the ROE, but if they were anything like OIF in March 2003, then there is also a question mark over how the pilot conducted his own PID and CDE. Whilst it's entirely possible that this strike was warranted and perfectly legitimate (and I would prefer to give the benefit of the doubt), I don't think it's a great example to use to demonstrate the work that coalition forces are doing out there.

I'd prefer to see the military release tapes of F-15Es and F-16s pinpointing insurgents with lasers to allow them to be apprehended by NVG-equipped soldiers, or the clip of several insurgents caught burying weapons by an F-15E and then being apprehended single-handedly by a US SF trooper. Just my view, but I’ve been fortunate enough to see these videos and believe they'd serve the US and the coalition much better as a PR tool... not to mention that they're probably far more representative of what's going on out there.

[AOF_ATC]

I wasn't aware that the facts of the video are in question. Thanks for bringing that up.

Also, I wasn't putting this out here for PR to the public, simply for the people on this board (military aviators, wannabee's, and hopetabees). This would likely be one of the worst PR videos to show, I agree.

However if the story prevails and the pilot took out a large group of these insurgents/terrorists, then this does nothing except get my blood pumping.

[ 20. April 2006, 14:08: Message edited by: JasonG ]

[Steve Davies]

Jason

I know you weren't suggesting it was good PR, it was more me just thinking aloud .

[trailmix]

LOL.."ahaaww dude!"

[Guest Cobalt]

Those dudes getting housed in the TGP video were obviously capable of walking-they should have walked themselves out of town when the war started. Tough luck.

As far as positive hostile ID is concerned- it is just me, but I doubt that Osama ran a PID matrix on everyone working in the WTC before he pickled two jets into the buildings there.

[Ram]

Cobalt...welcome to the board, but both of your arguments above are invalid.

[Guest SATCOM]

Originally posted by Steve Davies:

Jason

In the interviews I've seen with USAF spokespeople, no convincing answer has been given that explains how the FAC(A), TAC(P) or whoever could have ID'd them as hostile. I've heard the story that they came out of a house known to harbour insurgents, and that the group were aggressively approaching an Army checkpoint, but neither of these 'facts' has been publicly acknowledged by the armed forces, AFAIK.

Without getting into TTP's, there's a myriad of ways that we are ID'ing these people. Many times, I have sat outside these terrorist "safe houses" for days/weeks. I know what they eat/drink/say/dream. If I tell someone that they are bad actors, I (and most JTACs) say it with conviction and proof. The ID and actions of terrorists is a rapidly changing and dynamic environment, not for the risk-averse. There is a reason that "public acknowledgement" is not consistently adhered to.

I'm damn glad that most of my CAS laser and Troops-In-Contact calls are not recorded. All you'd here is a bunch of "F" bombs coming from my radio, and that's not good footage.

[Mark1]

Those dudes getting housed in the TGP video were obviously capable of walking-they should have walked themselves out of town when the war started. Tough luck.

So you are suggesting that anybody left inside Baghdad/Fallujah/Ramadi/etc city limits is fair game? Damn, we should have dug up some B-29s and gone to town with the carpet bombing a long time ago.

[Guest Cobalt]

"Cobalt...welcome to the board, but both of your arguments above are invalid"

Fury220,

Thanks for the welcome, and I wasn't arguing.

"So you are suggesting that anybody left inside Baghdad/Fallujah/Ramadi/etc city limits is fair game? Damn, we should have dug up some B-29s and gone to town with the carpet bombing a long time ago."

Mark 1,

No.

[Steve Davies]

Cobalt

So, if you're not saying that they were fair game because they remained in the city, what exactly are you saying?

As for PID/CDE, it's a *legal* requirement of coalition forces, and is one of the things that makes *us* different from *them*. Again, I don't see what your point is.

Perhaps you can explain?

SATCOM

Interesting post. It explains a few things. Thanks.

[ 21. April 2006, 05:26: Message edited by: Steve Davies ]

[Guest Rainman A-10]

I don't like it when people talk about why we should capture the bad guys without killing them or firing a shot. It is easy to say but impossible to do.

I have spent a little time in a few middle eastern countries and I have had an opportunity to talk to the people. Many of them want the same thing we want, to raise their families in peace and economic prosperity. Unfortunately, others have no negotiating position after their initial demands of death to Israel and death to America.

As for PID/CDE...there are rules. I never dropped if I wasn't absolutely confident. I had lawyers look over my guys tapes and get all fired up about ROE violations only to find out later the guys were absolutely justified dropping on legit targets every single time. The Intel/JAG guys would get excited when they would see a brief WSV clip on a 36 inch TV in a comfortable chair while drinking a cup of coffee. They didn't have access to the comm/video before and after the impact. They also didn't have any perspective of what it is like to be leading a flight at night, shitty wx, metal flying around the sky, guys in real trouble on the ground, time sensitivity/fleeting targets and the responsibility to decide whether or not to take a human life all with the added pressure that there was zero margin for error and no one would care later if you made a mistake...you could be tried and go to jail.

They were always jumping to the wrong conclusions.

I also doubt there are many guys who have gone to the FST when the JTACs or team members are coming back in from the field as casualties. I also doubt many guys have had any kind of personal relationship with the guys out on the ground and know what it is like to lose a friend to an ambush when our guys waited just a moment too long to shoot or give a cleared hot call. I think there are very few USAF guys who have seen the blood of their friends and watched the toughest MFers on the planet break down and weep while their bros are being worked on by the docs.

Anyway, unless you've been there it might be wise not to judge what you see in a brief WSV clip.

[Steve Davies]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

Anyway, unless you've been there it might be wise not to judge what you see in a brief WSV clip.

Rainman

I agree with that 100%. I know that i haven't been there, and that I never will; by virtue of that, I can't possibly know what it's like or why decisions are made/not made.

However, the free world (at least, the UK and US) is being judged by the rest of the world, and the Muslim world in particular, on the basis of the clips shown by the media and on the 'net. As such, it's right and proper that the media asks questions - the problem occurs when the military is unable or unwilling to answer them. That's my beef with this clip.

As for capturing guys without killing them, I have seen F-15E WSV where it's been done. Based on what you're saying these might be the exception to the rule, but I still think that the US PR machine should be releasing said WSV to the media to balance the argument.

I appeciate you sharing your experiences. Like SATCOM's, they're very enlightening.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Steve,

I was making a general comment. I was not aiming it at you or anyone else.

As for your comments about the free world is being judged based on some WSV clips that some dumbass pirated out of his intel shop because he wanted to show his Mom and Dad what he did in the war and now it's all over the net...I say bunk. A few clips like these mean absolutely nothing in the big picture. Neither the GWOT or world opinion will turn based on this. It is not that important.

As for the media having the right to ask questions, I agree. As for the Military's responsibility to satisfy each reporter, I say again...bunk.

I'm not sure what F-15E WSV you've seen so I can't comment on it. Yes, often times we catch the bad guys w/o killing them. That normally only happens when the bad guys are not really that bad. The real bad guys fight until someone dies. It is our job to make sure it is them, not us, who goes away.

Doesn't sound very pretty because it is not very pretty. When all the high speed cheerleading has quieted down we're left with the ugly facts; war brings death and sadness and pain. That is why war should be avoided at almost all costs but once engaged in combat we must win as quickly as possible at the least cost.

[F-15E WSO]

Capturing guys without killing them is the exception from a fighter / attack aircraft.

Even in the non-traditional ISR role many of us find ourselves, it's the exception.

I have talked ground troops to a suspected bad guy who was hiding in a ditch, and I've got a handful of friends that have done the same. Very satisfying -- not the norm.

Sorry, but if I just watched you and your buddies set up and fire a mortar / rocket at Balad, I'd feel pretty justified in taking you out of the gene pool.

[Guest gtyj98]

Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger (I'm a C-17 pilot--not an authority on fighters or CAS).

So...sorry to burst someone's bubble, but...I went to SOS over a year ago with a Viper guy who was OPS-OPS from Aviano to Cannon who knew the pilot on this clip. He ripped into him pretty good.

Apparently the pilot didn't blow up a group of AQ--it was a herd of sheep! Also, based on my friend's hand gestures and fighter speak, the pilot on the video was debriefed pretty harshly on the way he flew the "bombing"--I didn't understand much of what he was saying, but I know it was 'not correct' according to my friend.

[Guest 89 Ride]

I've also heard from some sources that those were not people but a herd of goats walking through the city. This sort of domesticated animal annihilation has happened before....remember the GBU-15/AGM-130 (can't remember what type it was) vs. the banging sheep? I've seen a higher resolution version of this video and you can see what looks like a goat flying out of the frag cloud and hitting the ground in the middle, lower left of the screen. They look like goats to me. My $.02

[Guest Sebastian]

what's wrong with giving the locals a hot meal?

[Guest Cobalt]

Cobalt

"So, if you're not saying that they were fair game because they remained in the city, what exactly are you saying?

Perhaps you can explain?"

Steve,

Sorry, I guess what I should have said was that if I lived in a town with known terrorist operatives, I would have walked my butt out of there on Sept. 12, 2001. In my book, not doing that makes you guilty by association. (Sheep apparently, are not exempt either)

I also understand and fully appreciate the importance of strict ROE adherence and target ID. Trust me on that one.

I hope that explains it for you.

Also,

You mentioned that you would rather see clips of F-15E's guiding in SP's to apprehend people. Why is that and what good (other than to give people a warm, fuzzy feeling about war), would that accomplish? It seems to me like that is giving them the wrong impression.

Just a general comment (not directed at Steve or anyone else) but in my opinion military pilots do not apprehend, capture or arrest. If it gets to the point where fighters/bombers/tankers etc are overhead, we've probably already passed the arresting and apprehending phase. Cops apprehend. Military guys kill bad people* (and sheep) and break their stuff when directed to do so. No sense in clouding the issue.

Damn, a bonus for F-15 drivers-no TGP police action capability!)

Cheers.

Token PC disclaimer:

*Individuals must have met all theatre specific PID matrix tables in order to be declared "bad people.”

[Guest Cobalt]

"if I lived in a town with known terrorist operatives, I would have walked my butt out of there on Sept. 12, 2001."

Bull shit.

Dude, what's bullshit? Saying I wouldn't live around a bunch of people who think suicide bombing is a person's ultimate calling. Like I said, I'd get out of there.

[ 22. April 2006, 23:44: Message edited by: Cobalt ]

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Cobalt:

Dude, what's bullshit? Saying I wouldn't live around a bunch of people who think suicide bombing is a person's ultimate calling. Like I said, I'd get out of there.

I'm sure you would. However...

Your faulty logic begins when you assume people in Iraq or Afghanistan or Iran or Yemen or Jordan or Syria or wherever would think and react like you.

I would be happy if we could get the concept of democracy, peace and economic prosperity into their craniums. They would be motivated to be self-policing. That would end the killing.

Until then, the only option is to find the bad guys (and their livestock) ourselves and hammer down.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by gtyj98:

So...sorry to burst someone's bubble, but...I went to SOS over a year ago with a Viper guy who was OPS-OPS from Aviano to Cannon who knew the pilot on this clip. He ripped into him pretty good.

News flash...guys talking crap at SOS are not reliable sources. Fighter guys at SOS are always trying to impress their herbivore and shoe clerk friends with their depth of knowledge. Most of the unwitting SOS listeners have never heard of the 10% truth rule which is the standard in the fighter community when telling a story.

Unfortunately, I have met too many shoe clerks who's only contact with a fighter pilot was at SOS and the impression they got, favorable or not, lasted forever. Same goes for herbivore guys who only know a fighter pilot from when they went to pilot training with the guy.

So, what's my lesson learned? Never trust a fighter pilot when he's holding court with a bunch of people where the BS flag cannot be raised...especially if there is "a little" alcohol involved.

BTW, there's a big difference between "knowing a guy" or "knowing the guy" and knowing the full story.

[Guest KoolKat]

Originally posted by Coblat:

Dude, what's bullshit? Saying I wouldn't live around a bunch of people who think suicide bombing is a person's ultimate calling. Like I said, I'd get out of there.

"I've got 30 cents & a bus ticket for a bus that ain't showin' up."

"Abdullah, start loading up the donkey...we leave at day break."

"Who's gonna wear the shoes first? We'll switch tommorrow."

I believe you when you say you'd leave. If it's was litterally YOU, with everything YOU do know, and the resources YOU have.

I just don't think you thought that one through all the way. Just "getting out of there" isn't always as easy as it sounds to us.

Now...saying you wouldn't live there...again, get born there...tough break, just "get out of there." That's easy, why didn't any of them think of that before?

BENDY

EDIT: If you give me 250 US dollars and 3 camels, I 'll put you on a mail-order bride website...should help you out. ;)

[ 23. April 2006, 15:25: Message edited by: Bender ]

[Stiffler]

Folks. For Gods sake. We kill people. Thats our job. And Im a tanker pilot! I wanna see videos of people getting bombed, not arrested.

[Guest PilotKD]

Those look like people to me. Not goats or sheep. Unless of course Iraqi goats have learned to walk upright?