illusive

Yeah I didn’t mean for this thread to digress into the way it did. I’m sorry for all the judicial hardship that happened and other peoples stories are way worse than mine. I just wish I was leaving feeling accomplished and satisfied. I do politely disagree that a system can betray you, or at least make you feel betrayed. Many AFIs, policies, and VMLs are written so there is little control for the commander or member. Therefore regardless of the person I was working with (and I’ve been blessed to work with mostly great people) their hands may be tied to do something ridiculous. To me that feels like a betrayal. Again it’s just a feeling but it’s something I need to work through I guess.

Upon reading a lot of the recent replies, talking with a mentor, and some self reflection I think a common theme I see is feelings of betrayal. In my own case it was really difficult learning to trust anyone or anything because I kept seeing a pattern of prioritizing optics and process over actual results. I understand there's going to be a lot of "its always been this way" in the replies but since I've been in it seems like that mindset is only getting worse.

Probably, I made it my second look as soon as they had a flight commander spot for me to fill.

Thank you all for the advice. I didn't want labels to be thrown around. I tried to prepare myself for the adage of "luck and timing" and "no good deed goes unpunished" early in my journey. I don't want to give up too much details about my career but like, holy sh*t. I even begged for any 365s and AFPAK hands and that didn't even work. I hope I will get a better attitude when I am finally in a different environment after 5 years. I didn't know how common it was to part ways and be full of regrets but I think I got some of my questions answered even if it will be really difficult to put into practice.

Working it, I have a guard unit lined up so maybe that will change some things when I get in a different environment

Not commissioned, I’m including the time it took to get the commission too as time spent chasing this dream. Commissioned it’s about 11.

Yeah I didn’t word things really well. Long story short I got a really bad must-film because people couldn’t or wouldn’t upgrade/pass training and I’ve been stuck ever since.

Thanks, it seems more common these days than not.

I should be leaving the Air Force soon if they process my paperwork right this time. I spent a lot of time stuck in places and airframes I didn't want to be in. It was UPT and AMC. I didn't end up there due to bad performance, it was mostly due to luck and timing. I had a really hard time watching people who failed courses, struggled in UPT, got in trouble, get the assignments I wanted due to missing VMLs, waivers needed for instructor duty, changing rules, or other factors. I feel like my youth was just... wasted and I have little to show for it. I don't have much pride in what I accomplished and I never was truly engaged or challenged. I am angry I spent 15 years of my life generally working hard and not screwing up like many of my peers and I got exactly what I didn't want. I have a CJO lined up which is great, but I am concerned I am going to spend the rest of my life unsatisfied because I never really scratched the itch of getting enough action or getting anything I wanted out of the Air Force. Some people suggested I stay, but after being dragged through the mud for 10 years I have significant trust issues with the institution, and watching better people than me leave for the Airlines says a lot. Am I missing something? Was this is it, and does it get better when you separate? I don't want to be resentful for the rest of my life.

Depends the person and timing. Within UPT people try to deploy because some are single. Some are angry over the work they are doing. Some anticipate going back to Ops and trying to avoid getting hit with a 6 month deployment. Some see it as a vacation from the long days. Some of own reasons were; I hated how UPT is process and optics focused, the culture in AETC creates power hungry people who just aren’t ready for power yet, I hated watching students get screwed over because of 19th Air Force policies, the town sucks, and there is such a large disconnect between anything operational that I don’t feel like I’m in the military at all.

Completely hate it. Asked for a 365 or AFPAK hands to not come here, wish they had given it to me. We have several people who fought over 6 month non flying deployments to leave. You will be here for 42 months not including PIT which may be an additional 7 months. The assignment is slightly more tolerable for people with families, but I’ve seen most of our FGO decide to clean break after their first year here. Dealing with 19th AF is just as bad as dealing with TACC but that depends your position. Go FTU instead if you can.

about 1/4-1/3 of the fleet is flyable

Anyone wrote the letter anyway in hopes of being grandfathered in to the old policy?

where does it say that in the regulation? I see where it says that for reserves but not active duty

I'm pretty sure you are protected. I don't think anyone other than this forum is tracking this change closely. FSS/AFPC even process the separation correctly? I also don't know if the AFMANs need to be updated before this takes effect, since a lot of the AFMANs still say "By order of the SECAF ...twice non selected....". Implying the SECAF still orders people to be given the option to discontinue 2nd time around.

I'm not sure what the porch is. Maybe things were better when you went through or if you've been around awhile or maybe its a particularly bad stroke of luck on my part. I don't want to derail this thread, but I think over time more and more control and more intricate process are centralized out of the Sq CC hands. I've seen some great ones, but when they need to ask layers of people to turn off assignments, swap, etc. its too much. It seems like squadron commanders are increasingly coordinators instead of decision makers, but again that is off topic.

I agree with you, but when things are extraordinarily inefficient in an attempt to keep the same structure alive it makes you wonder if the measure of success is how many slots did we fill or something else? I've seen people who specialized in a mission set for years be sent to teach t-6s against their will while at the same time someone at the same base who requests to go back is sent to the first persons desired assignment. At my base I watched a person in process post qual and begin out processing within 2 months because their ADSC was up (they were only 1 of 2 evaluators at their last squadron), they too were sent their against their will. I watched someone who had never flown fix wing before show up, barely make AC, but had over 3000 hours of rotary and requested to fly at minot after they did a service transfer. I think what the feelings of frustration are stemming from a grossly inefficient system that tends to find the simplest solution to problems rather than the best long term ones. I don't think solutions are more centralized control, I think decentralized solutions yield better results and giving more control to lower levels. Otherwise the system becomes increasingly impossible to properly manage.

I don't think anyone is arguing the Air Force is fair or that its not a service. I think people are concerned that this is not a good policy over the long run due to a poor incentive structure and it suddenly taking effect rather than being phased in. Its like playing a game of chance except if you lose you get trapped for years on end. It's not a fun game. I also think people are trying to highlight the chaotic nature of how even if you do the right things you can still end up with a losing hand. People are skeptical of that until it happens to them, and then they get it. The people who it doesn't happen to tend to stay in longer and overstate how the Air Force is a meritocracy, but that is just survivorship bias. I know of multiple late rates who did not make Major and I am trying to guide them through the process of their second look. Some stuck at PIT, some stuck in UPT which now takes 15 months in some cases, some I don't even know why... they were IPs with no derogatory information, checked every box, strats, etc. I watched a group exec get passed over whose only sin was failing out of F15C course and I've watched a person who tried to step to a jet intoxicated on deployment get promoted in the same board. It just doesn't make sense. Maybe they drop 40 white jets on your base at once and you get stuck at PIT forever, maybe someone messes up your paperwork, maybe the T-6s are so broken you get stuck there for years without a job, who knows? The saying "luck and timing" would not be as common as it is today if it wasn't partially true.

No likely not become shitty pilots. I just think it will cause a lot of non rated to think twice about swapping to pilot on the active duty side. I also think it will cause anger for them for the next 7 years if they were a higher performer, then by some fluke of bureaucracy they are trapped in a job with no growth potential. I think that will lead to a lot of disengagement.

This is a fair point. The issue is multiple people are trying to line their lives up with what they think is going to happen. At AETC I know of multiple students who were passed over because they were stuck in training for years, and incur another 10 year ADSC. How is that going to play out?

Can you confirm this?

Original Title 10 law; §632. Effect of failure of selection for promotion: regular captains and majors of the Army, Air Force, and Marine Corps and regular lieutenants and lieutenant commanders of the Navy (a) Except an officer of the Navy and Marine Corps who is an officer designated for limited duty (to whom section 5596(e) or 6383 of this title applies) and except as provided under section 637(a) of this title, each officer of the Regular Army, Regular Air Force, or Regular Marine Corps who holds the regular grade of captain or major, and each officer of the Regular Navy who holds the regular grade of lieutenant or lieutenant commander, who has failed of selection for promotion to the next higher regular grade for the second time and whose name is not on a list of officers recommended for promotion to the next higher regular grade shall- (1) be discharged on the date requested by him and approved by the Secretary concerned, which date shall be not later than the first day of the seventh calendar month beginning after the month in which the President approves the report of the board which considered him for the second time; (2) if he is eligible for retirement under any provision of law, be retired under that law on the date requested by him and approved by the Secretary concerned, which date shall be not later than the first day of the seventh calendar month beginning after the month in which the President approves the report of the board which considered him for the second time; or (3) if on the date on which he is to be discharged under clause (1) he is within two years of qualifying for retirement under section 3911, 6323, or 8911 of this title, be retained on active duty until he is qualified for retirement and then retired under that section, unless he is sooner retired or discharged under another provision of law. (b) The retirement or discharge of an officer pursuant to this section shall be considered to be an involuntary retirement or discharge for purposes of any other provision of law. This would be slipped in at the bottom then; Section 632(c) of title 10, United States Code, is amended to read as follows: ``(c)(1) If an officer is subject to discharge under subsection (a)(1) and, as of the date on which the officer is to be discharged under that subsection, the officer has not completed the officer's active duty service obligation, the officer shall be retained on active duty until completion of such active duty service obligation, and then be discharged under subsection (a)(1), unless sooner retired or discharged under another provision of law. ``(2) The Secretary concerned may waive the applicability of paragraph (1) to any officer if the Secretary determines that completion of the active duty service obligation of that officer is not in the best interest of the service.''. I do not know if a UPT ADSC counts as a "active duty service obligation" under title 10 or if that differs than ADSC in any legal way. Would the AFMAN need to change as well or could you still leave if that didn't change? It says FY2025 but any idea when it would take effect? Once its signed into law or is there a delay because its still in committee right now.

@Chida Were you able to land a guard reserve job anyway with the signed waiver or do the guys who see you are passed over twice give you a hard time about it?

Are those AOC gigs open even if you are passed over once or twice assuming no UIFs?

So I can scroll right now if I needed to then