SpeedOfHeat

February 11, 2022

While ridiculous, it's no more ridiculous than the people I see on a daily basis wearing masks outside by themselves.

My favorite is the people riding bikes or, ...I saw this a couple weeks ago...., SKIING while wearing a surgical mask. --"Tell me you have a mental disorder without telling me you have a mental disorder."

It's no more ridiculous than the kid I saw at my son's baseball game two nights ago wearing an N95 while playing CENTER FIELD. His dad said he wished his son would take off his mask, at least outside, but that "he doesn't feel safe without his mask." Holy $hit.

It's no more ridiculous than my kids still being mandated to wear cloth masks all day in school, when the CDC has finally admitted (what anyone with a brain knew all along) that cloth masks do nothing.

WLOFMs

January 21, 2022

46 minutes ago, Pooter said:

Masks come with no inherent *physical* risk.

FIFY

January 8, 2022

18 hours ago, Pooter said:

you're saying we're going to be irreparably damaged by putting some cloth on our faces.

The problem isn't the simple act of wearing a mask. The problem is the implicit messages, day-by-day being cemented in people's heads.

Implicit message #1: Uncovered face = scary and unsafe.

You (and everyone else) must wear a mask for "safety" or "health."

Many, many people now instinctively think anyone with an uncovered face is: a) gross/disgusting b) germ-spreading, c) dangerous, d) all of the above.

Implicit message #2: No mask = rude, selfish, uncaring, asshole, etc.

You can make character and personality judgements based on mask status. (At least half the population, and virtually all businesses with mask requirements, are donning the bullshit rag for that reason alone, and you know it.)

Overall implicit message: "Health" is mask wearing and getting shots, and other humans are dangerous.

The true horror will present itself in 10-15 years, when this generation of kids (who are being conditioned to believe all of the above) become adults.

My kids watch movies filmed before 2020 and anytime there's a crowd, they frantically ask "where are their masks?!?!" "Dad, how can they fly on an airliner without a mask???" It makes me want to vomit.

We have lived life as normally as possible throughout this whole thing, .... sports, travel, seeing friends and family.... all unmasked to the absolute max extent. But the fact is, most of their time is spent in school, where the lunatic branch Covidians have them masked and distanced and afraid. And shamed because they're not vaccinated, or because they were seen unmasked at baseball practice (ohh, the horror). It's despicable.

Imagine how f'd in the head they'd be if we were idiot Covidian parents at home as well. Well, that's reality for many kids - they're having this bullshit irrational fear pumped into their heads FULL time, at home and school. You are flat out crazy if you think the implicit messages I listed above won't cause irreparable damage over time.

December 28, 2021

6 hours ago, Negatory said:

Fixed that for you, buddy. Gotta love when bullies on both sides play the victim.

Exactly.

"F Trump" in 2016-2020 was met with "How dare they insult the POTUS that way???"

And mods on this site warned military members about criticizing the POTUS.

Then, no more than 2 months into the Biden Presidency, it's "F Joe Biden," and the same mods joining in. ...Gee, what changed?

Total hypocrites.

BOTH Trump and Biden are absolutely terrible and a disgrace. Why not at least be consistent?

December 20, 2021

8 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

so many are contemptible

distain and despise its core aspects.

I do understand being despised.

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.” John 15:18.

There's such a strange desire among many religious people to feel persecuted, hated, or oppressed, so it's not surprising that you interpreted my post that way.

Feigned oppression helps deflect away from having to confront the actual merit of the belief(s), and helps the person having their beliefs questioned actually feel virtuous (instead of embarrassed).

Someone questions the fact that you believe certain humans lived over 500 years, and you spin it to be about "hatred" against you.

What if I told you something ridiculous, like I can jump 50 feet high? I'm guessing you would want some evidence. And the more extraordinary the claim, the more evidence you'll require. That's how the world (outside religion) works.

Imagine if you said: "I really doubt you can jump 50 feet high. Can you prove it?" And I responded: ".. Ohh, well that's because you despise me."

Truth is, I said nothing about hating you. You can believe anything you want. I'm saying that if you believe things that don't align with reality, it makes no sense inviting you to the discussions about science and evidence. And that it's absurd for people to ask for religious accommodations for a vaccine by haphazardly trying to weave concepts of science/reality with Genesis, as if they're compatible.

I'm not going to pretend that I don't find many religious beliefs ridiculous, absurd, or even silly. You feel the same exact way, just about other religions than your own. It's why you're not a Hindu, Muslim, or Scientologist. .....or a flat-earther or chemtrailer. It's not about hating people that hold certain beliefs. It's a rejection of those beliefs because they don't align with reality.

December 20, 2021

8 hours ago, GoodSplash9 said:

(reference Genesis chapters 6 & 11)

See, this is where the discussion has to come to a screeching halt. There's no way to put it mildly: The whole of Genesis is a farce. Every Chapter is demonstrably false and is inconsistent with anything we observe about the universe.

Specifically to your references, Ch 6 is about the "flood" that never happened and the ridiculous notion that a dude built a boat to house 2 of every living creature on Earth. Ch 11 is about the tower of Babel, and alleges that the human species only originally spoke a single language, which we also know to be demonstrably untrue. The rest of Ch 11 is a boring account of folks that supposedly lived 200, 400, even 500 years.

You can believe that stuff, that's fine. But why would anyone entertain your thoughts on science/data/evidence when you've made it clear that those things don't matter to you? You talk about fetal stem cells and mRNA --- but you think some humans lived to be 500 years old and that the Earth was flooded ~4000 years ago.

Do we invite the flat-earthers or chemtrailers to discussions about space exploration or meteorology? Of course not. They're operating under a set of beliefs that don't comport with reality. Try explaining how a belief in Genesis is in any way different.

In any case, Prozac and Mark1 nailed it. Ultimately if you are refusing to get any vaccinations from here on out, and if the military universally mandates this particular work of the devil, it seems you have grown incompatible with military service.

December 6, 2021

1 hour ago, Prozac said:

I choose to take a realist’s position here and “play the game” when it comes to masking.

You choose to play the game, and that's fine. I choose not to. *Except there are many situations that I'm not allowed to choose, and neither are my children, and that's the problem.

The other problem is that games have an ending. But this one goes on and on and on.

This is why I cringe when people use the term "Game Changer:"

--"The vaccine is going to be a game changer."

--"Once it's approved for kids, well, hallelujah, that'll be a game changer."

--"Merck/Pfizer's covid pill is a total game changer."

......I know it's just an expression, but it's pretty obnoxious given that the game NEVER ACTUALLY CHANGES.

"I was told 5 game changers ago that the game would change?"

"Silence, covidiot,....cinch your mask tight and await your next jab. There's a new variant, and it's really scary."

Ohh, and the portion of the population that "feels more comfortable going about their daily lives" can feel comfortable with their vaccine and their mask. I'm fine with that. But it's not on me to engage in acts of theater to help them with their mental disorder.

December 6, 2021

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

So your problem is with the masks, not the vaccines.

Pawnman, your level of reading comprehension is truly embarrassing.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

December 5, 2021

6 hours ago, pawnman said:

What would you rate as an "efficient" vaccine?

One that doesn't require you to wear a face mask to protect you from the virus that you just got 3 inoculations against?

I mean, really think about that. They're telling people with 3 shots over 7 months to wear a mask and social distance. That's insane.

They're saying the vaccines are great and provide amazing protection, but also that vaccinated people have to keep following the emergency public health protocols that were being stressed before a vaccine was avaliable. How could a reasonable person not see the disconnect there?

I know we've become inured and desensitized to mask wearing, but imagine telling your 2019 self that there's a pandemic on the way, and you'll soon be told to take 3 vaccinations and still mandated to wear a face mask.

Hearing that, your 2019 self would assume that the vaccination had extremely low efficacy and/or the pathogen must be like the ones portrayed in the movies Outbreak or Contagion, where the premise was that exposure to the virus was a death sentence (involving pustulating sores, convulsions, foaming at the mouth, and death within 48 hours).

But neither of those is true of Covid. The vaccines are highly efficacious and Covid is highly survivable.

Any reasonably intelligent person in 2019, shown the data we have now, and told about that messaging disconnect, would be thoroughly confused about the ongoing farce.

As others have said, get as many shots as you want. Tripple mask, ...and don't forget the face shield. Celebrate the holidays with family via Zoom chat. Go nuts. After all, the hardest part of 14 days to flatten the curve is the first 2 years.

My family and I will pass, thanks.

December 3, 2021

Pawnman simply cannot comprehend false equivalencies. This is not the flu shot. Or the small pox shot. Or any other shot that we've taken as part of the standard DoD regimen.

Know how I know? Because I don't take THREE flu shots within 7 months. Putting the MRNA technology, the testing trials, the FDA approval, etc. etc. aside, the number of shots alone puts this in a different category.

And if you think it will end with 3, you're on crack. They're already rushing to create another shot that's tweaked for Omicron. And why not..... there's already a line of tripple-vax'd, double-masked basement dwelling covidian freaks clawing to be first in line to roll up their sleeve yet again. Pfizer and Moderna are thrilled, and on and on it goes.

I got the original two shots. But now it's clear that the efficacy wanes incredibly fast. 3 shots in 7 months, and more already on the horizon? No thanks. Not the same as other vaccines, and I'm not lining up every 6 months for a disease that the statistics clearly demonstrate is not a substantial risk to me.

Likewise, I'm not going to have my kids jumping through these hoops. "OK boys, get back in the truck.... we're headed to CVS for the 3rd time this year..... there's a new variant." GMAFB.

The "risks of driving" analogy is another false equivalency. Pawnman, yes, my kids wear seat belts. That's not the same as wearing a mask 8 hours a day at school or taking jabs every 6 months indefinitely.

It's hilarious to watch you argue which is riskier, the disease or the shot? Because the risk to kids is absolutely infentesimal, for BOTH.

Look at the data for hospitalizations and deaths in the 0-17 age group (Just the raw numbers.....without critical details on BMI/comorbidities, or Vax status.) The risk is statistically zero. Now imagine if the data included health conditions and relative risk to an average healthy kid. And then imagine the data also somehow captured all the asymptomatic, undetected, or unreported cases.

Calculating covid risk to kids is an exercise in multiplying by zero. It's stupid. You've been had.

November 5, 2021

1 hour ago, dream big said:

The back and forth here highlights one of the top problems in this country : the two party system. It’s always either-or, for or against, black and white (or in this case blue and red). It’s 2021, yet we decide the most important office in the world in a dichotomy.

I agree, but I think the real tragedy is that, for the overwhelming majority of people, it's a perceived, not actual, dichotomy.

The media want us to believe it has to be one or the other: Everyone who's outraged by Jan 6th are totally supportive of BLM riots. And everyone outraged by BLM riots are Trump cultists that are a-okay with Jan 6th.

It's bull$hit.

It's designed to make people pissed off and/or afraid, since those are the two emotions most easily exploited for viewership/ratings.

In my experience, there's a LOT of common ground when regular people actually talk to each other. Much, much less so when they watch mainstream media and build corresponding echo chambers out of their phone.

**The same faulty dualistic thinking applies to the candidates themselves. We're led to believe that if you support Trump, you must despise Biden. And vis versa. Totally false.

You said you consider Biden a bumbling embarrassment. Totally agree. ...But I also think Trump was a bumbling embarrassment.

Imagine if we had two decent, competent humans running. Hard for most Americans to picture at this point, but yes, it is also possible to genuinely like both candidates.

November 3, 2021

7 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Thanks for responding, and I agree with the desire for better choices. I won't be holding my breath.

I think a fairly large disconnect right now between Republican voters and Democratic voters is summed up nicely above. You can't see how Republicans aren't as horrified as you are about the occurrences on January 6th. But the truth of the matter is the Republicans have been horrified for quite some time, and January 6th was just the ultimate instance of what-about-ism. Democrats danced gleefully, rationalized, or at the very least looked the other way while dozens of cities in the US burned over the overt lie that police were massacring unarmed black people.

A whole lot of well-intentioned but foolishly gullible liberals, and a whole second cohort of people who just wanted to burn something down, destroyed the livelihoods of small business owners, looted bigger businesses, and literally set fire to government buildings. Crickets. Major political figures, including the vice president, made statements that implied these rioters were in fact heroes. Go ahead and dig around now, it is almost impossible to find any prominent liberal figures who made unqualified condemnations of the riots. "Yeah, stealing is bad, but....."

So by the time January 6th happened, for a lot of people like me who have no sympathy for Donald Trump losing the election that was absolutely his to lose, and no sympathy for the fools who bought into his narrative and stormed the capital, it doesn't jive that I'm supposed to lose my mind over what happened simply because it's the first instance of unjustified rioting that you or the Democrats are upset about. Welcome to the party.

I've said this for 5 years, and in 5 years I've been proven wildly86 correct. Donald Trump was the response from conservatives to a political system that had become cartoonishly dishonest. And the imbalance in Washington and the media that covers it created an environment where conservatives were regularly characterized as evil, bigoted, backwoods, stupid, ignorant, racist, sexist, imperialist, redneck, hyper religious, anti immigrant deplorables. Objectively good men like George W Bush, Mitt Romney, and (after Trump was elected) Brett Kavanaugh were treated like reincarnations of Hitler. Kavanaugh was openly accused of being a gang rapist on the basis of zero evidence and quite a bit of counter evidence, so if you want to know where the final straw was from the conservative side, that was it for a lot of us.

Now, and what I can only interpret as a tragedy for the country, the right has seemingly decided that if you can't beat them join them. The left doesn't seem particularly fond of their own medicine, and maybe with some time that will be what's needed for us to find a better way. But really this is just a long way of saying we agree on January 6th, but you've been ignoring all of the January 6ths that came before, and since I am not particularly fond of anything that has come out of Washington DC for many, many years, I don't see why I should be more upset that people vandalized the capital over when people vandalized the true lifeblood of this country, small business and entrepreneurialship (the icons of individual liberty and freedom) all while attacking the rule of law, another institution that sets us apart in the world.

Great post. I think the part we can't reconcile is that I see the comparison to the George Floyd riots as a false equivalency. It's just not the same. **Which is NOT to say it didn't matter or it was not a big deal.

Criminal acts should be condemned. But not all criminal acts are the same. A murderer gets different treatment than a shoplifter. The Jan 6th disgrace came from the top. It was inspired by the POTUS.

And it was such a bad lie, which is to say it was an obvious lie. In the lead up to 2016, Trump thought he was going to lose.... so the election was 'rigged.' Then he won and all the claims of fraud and rigging vanished. Weird. Then in the lead-up to 2020 he recycled the same nonsense. Except this time he DID lose and he felt he had to double down on it. Those idiots in the Capitol would absolutely not have been there if Trump had any dignity whatsoever and simply conceded.

The looting and rioting in the name of George Floyd... and the Kavenaugh accusations..... no question... ridiculous. An outrage. But it didn't originate from the President of the United States. (How could it, since Trump was President at the time.) And those rioters didn't invade the Capitol, with Congress in session. Again, this is probably where we agree to disagree. That's fine.

Riots are terrible and inexcusable, but the original question was about how Biden voters feel about their decision. "Still not Hillary" was a common response to point-out's of Trump's constant idiocy. But people on the hard right can't now understand the same sentiment from Biden voters?

People often finish criticizing Biden by ending with the snarky: "but at least there's no mean tweets" zinger.

It's so stupid. Try criticizing Biden and ending with: "but at least there's no gallows outside the Capitol and kevlar-wearing idiots on the senate floor rifling through senators desks while calling for the Vice President's execution."

A little bit harder to make the sarcasm work in that example, isn't it?

What I think we can agree on is that they're not mutually exclusive. You don't HAVE to support the Floyd riots and condemn Jan 6th. Or vis versa. You can condemn both.

And I can see Bode's post that just popped up as I'm writing this: "What about.... what about..." Yes, terrible. We agree, Bode. Celebrities shouldn't call for the President's death and people shouldn't attack/ invade police precincts.

We should be able to criticize Bush and Obama and Trump and Biden. Across party lines. For the things they've messed up that are objectively bad. And we should be able to praise/appreciate their successes. But, unfortunately, uncompromising tribalism rules the day. And voters must cast their votes according to their conscience, interests, and priorities.

November 1, 2021

4 hours ago, VMFA187 said:

If you voted for this administration explain what you think about its direction.

I think it's a train wreck. No doubt. Horrible. I'm hoping Biden is a one-term president and we get much higher caliber humans to choose from. BUT.... do I regret voting for him? Nope.

Because at least I don't have to fumble to quickly change the radio station when my kids are in the car and they start talking about how the President of the United States casually cheats on his third wife to bang porn stars and then pays them hush money. For all his faults, Biden doesn't recreationally rawdog porn stars. That's nice. That does a lot for me.

And because at least no lunatics have stormed the U.S. Capitol and called for the murder of the VP and/or speaker of the house. That's a win. I really like not seeing members of congress evacuated and morons with zip ties trapsing around the senate floor.

That was the last straw for me, and I don't understand how it couldn't be for other people. I understood a lot of the mental gymnastics that people did to justify Trump's many shortcomings because, in general, they liked his policies, or more often, disliked Democrat policies. But Jan 6th was unforgivable-- a national disgrace, and such a low moment in US history that I'm still glad I voted for the current administration, despite all it's faults.

I just wish we had better choices to start with.

October 12, 2021

5 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

You’re usually a smart dude whose posts I enjoy

Stunning. I for one have literally never read a pawnman post without thinking to myself: "holy $hit, this guy is such a douche."

August 25, 2021

As usual, what should have been a straight forward memo leaves most readers with several questions.

Namely and most obviously is regarding boosters. My understanding is that 3rd shots are still under EUA. ….not the actual shot itself, which is the same as original, but the regimen of getting a 3rd after 8 months.

Many folks got their shots in Jan/Feb/Mar. Is the military going to consider us “unvaccinated” come Sep/Oct/Nov?

(I for one will refuse a booster for as long as it’s my choice. I played along and got the initial two, but I’m not going to keep playing this game and being a pin cushion when I personally have no fear of Rona and still have to wear a mask regardless. Fool me once….)

August 16, 2021

The videos are truly unbelievable. It is literally crazier than the airport scene from World War Z.

Even the zombies never held on to the eff'ing plane for takeoff!

https://youtu.be/uwF1yKhOOW0

May 18, 2021

To clarify, people like pawnman aren’t actually bothered by unvaccinated people not wearing masks because it’s unsafe or putting their health at risk. They’re bothered by the act of disobedience.

They are “following the rules,” and others aren’t. ...And the others are oftentimes “getting away with it.” And that pisses them off.

It is the EXACT same nonsense we’ve all seen with reflective belts downrange. Idiotic mandates to wear them in places/conditions that make no sense (day time, etc.) — and people wearing them simply so they don’t get ‘Chief'd.’

It is not about safety/health. It’s about compliance. And the ones that are most outraged, most vocal, and most willing to elevate the issue are the same ones that are reflective belt nazis: the tools/douches that don’t have anything better to do, or the careerists that are eager to demonstrate their obedience.

This is exactly why pawnman framed it the way he did. He didn’t pose it as someone who lied about their vaccination status and infected someone.... causing illness, long-term health complications or perhaps even death. No, ...it was about ‘showing red on IMR’ and ‘Violating SECDEF orders.’

January 9, 2021

On 1/7/2021 at 11:06 AM, Blue said:

Video of Ashli Babbitt getting shot yesterday.

She fought to defend our country and then died attacking it.

What a mess.

January 4, 2021

37 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Would you tell your surgeon not to bother with a mask "because it doesn't do anything"?

Why do you think they would be even less effective when you don't have a giant, open wound in your body?

<sigh>

Pawnman, why is the surgeon wearing the mask (Let’s say I’m getting a knee replacement)? Because he’s afraid of getting sick from my knee? No.

The surgeon is wearing the mask to protect me, the patient.

This aligns with the messaging throughout this thing that wearing a mask is about protecting others.

My comment above was about how useful a surgical mask is in protecting the wearer.

What the Google machine tells me (via fda.gov) is that an average surgical mask “may help block large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter.“

And that’s my point. In public, especially with social distancing in effect, do you guys frequently encounter “large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter?”

Seriously ask yourself. Is that a thing?

Are people coughing or sneezing on or near you? I don’t know. I’m just saying that’s not my experience. Yelling, singing, or whistling are also probably good examples, but again, I personally don’t see that in a typical grocery store run. I see a handful of healthy people with no cough or sneeze, adhering to distancing, and yet wearing masks.

Do some woodworking with a surgical mask on. Cutting, or especially sanding. You’ll be coughing on saw dust inside of 10 minutes. It does not block fine particles at all. And that’s literal pieces of wood.

I found (I think) the article that Slackline references above. It suggest that cloth masks block “some viral particles” and “can reduce the inoculum of the virus which enters the mask,” resulting in a milder or even asymptomatic infection. So you get sick, but not as sick. Fair enough. It’s a short article and there’s no data cited.

To me, it is conditions and behavior based. If we are now asserting that a mask can protect the wearer because it blocks “some viral particles,” it seems to me that the emphasis should be on wearing them in the places where there is a real chance of someone else’s spit hitting your face. i.e. while watching a movie on the couch with someone, not while walking down an aisle at Costco.

January 4, 2021

2 hours ago, flynutt said:

It would be great if sick folks would wear a mask. However, it is my opinion too many people believe masks infringe on their freedoms/too inconvenient combined with a lack of concern for others that many sick will NOT wear masks. Therefore, you need to CYA and wear your masks to avoid picking up their crud.

I think the opposite is occurring, at least right now. Sick people are staying home. Have you seen someone running a fever, or clearly congested, or with a persistent cough at the work place or casually shopping at Costco? My experience has been that anyone who coughs, even once, even into their mask, gets a hairy eyeball. I think very few legitimately sick people are out and about.

What we have is sick people at home without masks, getting their family members, or roommates (or nursing home cohabitants/caregivers) sick, and healthy people out of their homes wearing masks, essentially for no reason. We have it all backwards.

And to your last comment, about protecting yourself via mask, are you (correctly) wearing an N95 or better? Because the surgical mask or the homemade cotton mask is doing nothing to protect you.

January 4, 2021

8 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

Asian countries have been doing it since SARS.

For healthy people?

That’s the key distinction. I think we’ve forever turned a page culturally, where we’ve realized it’s smart for SICK people to wear a mask.

What most people want to know is when can HEALTHY people, with no symptoms, no cough, no sneezing, no runny nose, etc. stop wearing a mask?

It will be a long long time. Which business will be the first? I wonder what the research from large companies is showing, as far as potential customers gained vs customers lost if they drop mask requirements. Moot point for now, I suppose, since we are no where even close.

October 6, 2020

12 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

I read a bunch and know a decent amount about computer modeling; it’s how I’m skeptical of pinning everything on humans in the US with models trained on poor data while simultaneously giving a pass to China and India. Airplanes are pretty real; man-made global warming is an unprovable theory. You don’t have a control system to contrast against, and the current computer models are all recognizing humans as the cause because they’re incredibly limited. But you’re an arrogant troll only interested in your religion so no, this won’t matter.

Edit: also, you should read the rational optimist by Matthew Ridley. Every time someone makes some grim global prediction, it works out. Stop freaking out and live your life.

6 minutes ago, FourFans130 said:

Hey now, socialism is a religion based solely on belief too...we're still waiting on history to provide a supportable, functional, and prosperous example...yet half our country buys it...with no proof at all!

Why demand proof of a completely debunkable hypothesis is the face of that?

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen. Right on cue.

Even when you tell them how predictable and off topic their responses are, they simply can’t help themselves.

-Computer modeling has flaws, therefore we can just ignore all the other sources of evidence. “The TACAN is malfunctioning.....<shrug’s shoulder’s> .....I guess there’s just no way we can determine our position on this sortie.”

-China

-AGW is unprovable

-You're a troll

-It’s a Religion

-Stop freaking out and live your life

-Socialism

-Scientific data/evidence (ha, just kidding)

Lessons learned (or relearned):

1) Dunning-Kruger is real
2) You will not change anyone’s opinion online
3) Critical thinking skills are lacking, even in college graduates

And to reiterate one last time, ask yourself periodically over the course of your life about this. Ask if it was shown to be a hoax or that the data was all wrong. The answer will be NO.

October 6, 2020

44 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

“You don’t tow lines, you toe them”

—ahh, ya got me. I feel so dumb.

“the hubris that humans are the only thing causing this....”

—I didn’t say we are the only thing causing climate change. There are many factors. We are what’s causing it to *accelerate.*

You call it hubris.... that’s great. Now explain why. Go. What makes it hubris? Why is it prideful or arrogant to accept that AGW is occurring, when that is exactly what the evidence shows? I would love to hear.

And this is my favorite part:

“and we understand it so certainly that it must be true is indeed antithetical to science.”

How dare we understand something so certainly as to know that it’s true?

....Can you picture saying that to a crowd with a straight face?

How dare we know how airplanes fly. How dare we know when the next lunar eclipse will be. How dare we know how to fly to and dock with the ISS. Or how to launch and land rovers all the way over on fvcking Mars. How dare I trust my GPS, which reliably knows, to the minute, when I’ll show up at my destination.

Holy sh!t man, you sell our scientists, inventors, and engineers awfully short. Wouldn’t you say?

We know the earth is warming and we
know the acceleration of that warming is due to human activity. It’s not very complicated.

And for the onlookers, you’ll notice these guys never present data to the contrary. It is always a deflection towards ‘it’s a religion,’ ‘follow the money,’ ‘look at Leo in his yacht,’ ‘AOC/Bernie want to bring about socialism,’ ‘China and India are larger emitters.’ .....blah blah blah.

You will not see them present scientific data or ideas. Just a “check yourself,” when they’re the ones too lazy or dishonest to read up. It’s actually sad.

October 5, 2020

7 hours ago, brickhistory said:

Again, looking at the same data, reasonable people can come to different conclusions.

—Do you defend flat-earthers under the same premise? “... well, we can’t blame someone if they reject that the earth is round.... looking at the same data, reasonable people can come to different conclusions.” Please. There are some things we know to be true, based on the evidence. When reasonable people look at overwhelming evidence, they come to similar conclusions. If they reject all the evidence at face value and assert a polar opposite conclusion that the evidence does not support, they cease to be reasonable.

7 hours ago, brickhistory said:

you want to impose your beliefs and will upon others because...they're wrong. ....faith-like...

—Again, only one side of this debate uses the words “faith,” “belief,” and “religion.”

And for some reason you seem threatened and resent being told about reality. If I tell you the earth orbits the sun or that the earth is not at the center of the galaxy, is your first instinct that I’m imposing my “beliefs” and “will” upon you? No.

7 hours ago, brickhistory said:

Ok, then forego anything related to fossil fuels, modern conveniences that utilize the electric grid and, ... Until then, I can only believe that your conviction in your facts is superficial.

—Strawman. The hypocrisy of people utilizing fossil fuels while warning against their danger has no bearing on the truth of the phenomenon itself.

We, the US, give away billions to...whom? Who gets the money? Do others also have to modify their behavior?

—Strawman. Where money flows to/from has no bearing on the truth of the phenomenon itself. That’s policy/politics andthe consequences of AGW, which is a whole other can of worms that absolutely needs to be debated and watched carefully.

And, given your rationale, what if you are wrong?

...I don’t know. I assume you’re trying to get me to say it’ll be a colossal waste of time, money, and resources that will weaken the country “... just like the libs want!” Right? Here’s the thing. I’m not wrong. Just like I’m not wrong that the earth is round. So I’ll turn the question around to you. What if YOU’RE wrong?

I believe the earth doesn't give two craps about any species, us included. Earth's gonna earth

—There it is, folks. ....”I believe.”

You ‘believe’ based on what, exactly? Nothing. Your hunch, your gut, your anecdotal observations, your feeling. And your politics. THAT is not science, *that* is religion.

I specifically noted before that I know, by what you’ve said and the questions you’ve posed here, that you haven’t done any research into climate change. And now you double down and prove the point even further. Nothing you said has anything to do with refuting or countering the evidence of AGW. The *consequences* (difficult and unfavorable though they might be) of the phenomenon have no bearing on the basic premise that the phenomenon is occurring.

7 hours ago, brickhistory said:

October 5, 2020

9 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

I'm not type 1, 2, or 3, I'm all of the above

The finality and confidence which supporters of the theory display is...

Type 1:Type 2:Type 3:

But I like to ask a hypothetical. If we found out next year that global warming is 100% real, *but* we also discover definitively that it is completely natural and uninfluenced by humans, do we try to stop it? Do we fight against it?

So if it's ok for natural global warming, why does man made warming suddenly become a problem?

That's not science, it's religion.

—You cannot be Group 1, 2, and 3. They are mutually exclusive by definition. That aside, here’s my response to your points:

—It’s the same finality and confidence that’s applied to dozens of scientific discoveries. Ones that you accept without question. The fact that there are tectonic plates, that the earth orbits the sun, and that the earth is round. It is true that the scientific method is open to new discovery and therefore cannot ever claim absolute certainty. But there are things we know.... things like the aforementioned that we accept as scientific fact because they are demonstrable, observable, etc.. There is ongoing research and debate on many aspects of AGW. Some results, findings, and predictions have been and will be proven wrong. That’s fine. Our knowledge and understanding is evolving. But you act like because there are unknowns, doubt, or debate In certain specific areas, that somehow means the ENTIRE phenomenon is invalid.

—Type 1. The amount of evidence that global temp is rising is overwhelming. Satellite data is one source. There are dozens others. When you’re flying, you can tell your position by several means: tacan, gps, vor, your eyeballs, etc. Each system has flaws and margins of error, but when viewed in totality leave no reasonable doubt as to your position. The ‘confluence of evidence’ behind climate change is similar. If you don’t know about all the independent fields of study that converge on the same answer, there’s nothing I can do for you. It’s on you to do the reading.

Type 2–There’s no scientific ‘theory of CO2 as a greenhouse gas.’ It just is one. We are filling our atmosphere with it (and others), while simultaneously engaging in land clearing and deforestation.

Type 3— I can tell this is your go-to “gotcha” on this subject. Except it’s a hypothetical. And a really poor one, because you’ve embedded the only possible answer in the question. If, given your hypothetical, GW is 100% uninfluenced by humans, than of course the answer is that we don’t attempt to fight against it.... you just said we cannot influence it.

But more importantly, it’s a poor hypothetical because the evidence demonstrating AGW is so strong. What if.... hear me out now.... hypothetical.... what if the earth is really flat. ...Well, it’s not. It’s just not. So most people won’t waste their time contemplating such a question.

— “That’s not science, it’s religion.” Ugh. This is such a tired and predictable trope. This is the denier’s Alamo, where they inevitably retreat to when they’ve exhausted all the other standard logical fallacies.

Of course some people blindly tow whatever partisan line their party tells them to, but for people that have actually done the research, it’s not a religion. It’s the opposite. Because there’s so much evidence, there’s no faith required. And you’ll notice that only one side of this conversation ever uses the word “believe/belief.”

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