brock

It is kind of sad that the non flying part of the air force doesn't realize what their job is. Support the war fighter, which happens to be the guys and gals who fly aircraft. When I went through Army flight school we were taught from day one that we were there to support the ground element. The Army kind of has the opposite problem though. We try to hard to act like the ground guys. That is why we do stupid shizat like wear two piece flight suits. When I was a light fighter in Hawaii we went as far as to wear camo when we flew.

I was at a medevac conference a few weeks ago arguing against the HH-60 M. It just doesn't haver the power margin. In your guys community it is an even bigger problem. I think the Merlin would be a great choice.Something with with a higher power margin as well as more cabin space.

The 60M is an improvement for the regular Army units. It has some nice bells and whistles. I flew with some of the M model guys in OEF. The new HH model is going to have some limitations. For you G model guys who have been in the OEF AOR you know what limitaions we are talking about. I personally don't think it is the answer for the Air Force or Army medevac to be honest with you. You SAR bubbas have flown both missions sets and know that more room is needed as well as some extra power. You get neither with the 60 M after all is said and done. I'm a 60 guy who loves the airframe. I just don't think it is a good fit for medevac or CSAR.

Really? That is about all they are doing. I won't get into the numbers , but I'd say most of the AF assets being flown in theater are for that exact purpose. .

I feel the same. I've talked to you enough to know that you care about your crews. Especially the guys in the back. I've witnessed our medics and your PJ's do some great things and they have gone unnoticed. That is the part that blows.

I flew over 250 missions and close to 500 hours out of Bagram and received one air medal for service. The army can be pretty stingy when it comes to air medals and DFC's. I flew and saw guys get very little recognition for some pretty dicey missions. Remember, we fly unarmed. I'm not sure how many total hours our BN flew, probably somewhere in the 10-12K range and we had two guys put in for DFC's. A lot of us dustoff guys didn't really care, but it seems like the Army and Air Force have one thing in common. The medal system is completely jacked up. As the unit Standards Pilot I flew numerous traffic patterns ( OIF and OEF) so staff guys could get their air medal.

Problem is, does that Army 0-6 know how to utilize those assets? I'm thinking not. Does any Squadron want to give two of its airplanes to the Army. Seems like a pretty hard sell to me.

I just came off a year deployment where aour a/c were opconned within in the BDE. That situation caused all types of problems. And that was an Army guard unit being opconned to the ARMY. I can't even imagine the AF giving control of two C-130's/27's to an Army 0-6.

Either way, it sounds like the guys down in the weeds want to get things done the right way. Hopefully the guys who make the decisions let them do that.

Thread jack indeed, The RFF was for the south. The situation has been somewhat fixed by the addition of the 82nd CAB. The relation was one that the Army wanted. The units basically answered to the Army. Up north it was a totally different story. The assets still belong to the CAOC. When we dealt with the 101 out of NY they just wanted t help. Fly chase, fly missions, do whatever it took to support us. The guys after them, not so much. The MOA came to fruition and we got them involved. But they began to turn down missions because they said they were not commensurate with their abilities. That is why they thought they should do all POI's. Picking up a trooper at a FOB was below them. On more than one occasion their medicine was suspect. I will concede to the fact that a PJ is better trained than a regular Army medic. Not so in our unit. Over 90% of our medics are full time firefighters and Paramedics. The PJ's couldn't maintain the same standard as our medics. This not only came from our BDE surgeon but the ERQS surgeon as well. That is why such control measures were put in place. We did not see them as a fix but a hinderance. Over the past few years the Air Force slice of the pie has gotten a lot smaller. Aside from a few TAC air assets and ERQS, they aren't really in the fight. When the Air Force wants a program just so the Army can't have it, it starts to look suspect. Long before Casey axed the C-27 program the Air Force wanted it to be AF only. Not to long ago the AF pitched the idea that all UAS assets should be under the control of the Air Force. All of a sudden the AF is knee deep in TF ODIN. So when the SEC DEF cancelled CSAR-X and said that CSAR should be joint we saw the ERQS out trying to justify their existence. Right or wrong that is how we all saw it on the Army side.

I wouldn't say butt hurt, more like irritated. I agree with you 100 percent, patient advocacy is the number one priority. I can tell you I was involved deeply with the execution matrix which was used for mission dissemination. But it seemed like every time that we came up with something the new in bound ERQS wanted to change it. In fact the guys who came in right before we left thought that they should be doing all POI's. We thought that the troops would be best served if we put the ERQS at one of the other FOBS. That never happened. It worked well with the 129th taking the mission at Bastion. But at Bagram we had seven aircraft doing the work of three. And the controls measures put in place by the CJTF surgeon as well as standards limited the ERQS as to what missions they could actually fly. I never saw a RFF. What I did see was the MOA that drafted by the AEW and CJTF. The MOA which was drafted by someone in the AEW even stated that medevac was an Air Force mission. Inter theater yes. Intra theater not so much. That is a little irritating. You've seen my post on AW and know that I'm not a big fan of Big Army. In fact many of us in the guard weren't happy with the way that Big Army does medvac. I, like you want what is best for the force.

The Army's biggest problem is it is the Army and run by Infantry, Armor & Artillery Officers. They see the aviation Branch as someone who takes there funding. They do whine about crew rest, weather and other factors they have no understanding of. Everyone suffers because of this. The guard is in real need of a replacement for the C-23. Our stateside mission depends on it. Army Aviation had a strong advocate in Gen. Cody, but he's gone. You only have to look to the defunc RAH-66 program to see how well the Army manages programs. After 14 billion dollars in R&D they decided that it didn't fit our needs. We used the money for the LUH and ARH. I flew the LUH and it is a POS. The ARH has been cancelled due to cost. Our KW pilots need a new airframe. They have to suffer because Army Aviation can't get their crap together. The fix wing guys flying Oden have to deal with flying some pretty s*&ty aircraft. The Air Force might not have wanted the mission, but at least they got you guys new King Air 350's. I think they did that program of the shelve in record time. The Army fly's the same mission. Why don't we buy the same aircraft? I can see why the AF doesn't want the Army involved in procurement. My rant foe the day.

Well since it isn't 1998 I was talking about the here and now. But you bring up good point. If the Air Force wasn't so myopic and saw the need for mission then we wouldn't be talking about it. I guess the thing that bothers me the most is it seems like the Air Force doesn't want the mission till the Army wants it. The Air Force is very territorial about it's CSAR mission but feel they are just as well suited to fly the dust off mission. The Air Force RQS in OEF isn't very busy doing the CSAR mission. So they want to get involved and fly an Army mission. If the tables were turned, do you think the Air Force would be letting the Army fly CSAR missions?

You might want to do you home work. Look at who went in to get crews during Desert Storm. I just returned from OEF , and Army medevac was sent to pic up a downed AF crew. Sadly the crew ( AF) did not survive. I was tasked to fly a late night mission and turned it down due to weather and the condition of the patient. The AF said they could do it and destroyed an aircraft after running it into the side of a hill. Experience? In the end the mission will probably be shared. The 160th has the most experienced helo bubbas in the DOD hands down. You aren't going to be a FMQ or flight lead over there unless you have some serious experience. Last time I checked the AF sends it guys straight to CSAR units right out of the 60 course. How much experience do those guys have? So to answer your question, yes the Army has and will continue to fly those missions.

The Army Chief of Staff made this decision not the Sec Def. The Army is a little busy right now and would not be able to man the MC-12 and C-27 so the C-27 mission went to the ANG. The Army guard is in desperate need of the C-27 and I see more making it to the ARNG. I think you'll see the Army fixed wing fleet move to the Air Force when the Air Force gives up all of its rotary wing assets. They are already trying to pilfer the Army med mission in OEF so why not just transfer those assets to the Army. Never going to happen on either side.