Guest JArcher00 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Can anyone point my to the AF policy in writing regarding ground deicing procedures, such holdover times, etc.... [ 02. January 2006, 23:29: Message edited by: RedDog ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lovelacm Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Ran a search on all my AFIs in PDF format... all the 11 series. Here're the results - This from AFI 11-202v3: 5.27. Takeoff with Ice or Frost. The PIC will not takeoff with ice, snow, or frost adhering to the wings, control surfaces, propellers, engine inlets, or other critical surfaces of the aircraft, unless authorized by the aircraft single manager or flight manual. 5.27.1. If approved by the system program office or flight manual: 5.27.1.1. A thin coating of frost is permitted on the fuselage, provided the letter and paint lines are visible. 5.27.1.2. Light frost (up to 1/8 inch thick) caused by supercooled fuel is permitted on the lower wing surface (i.e., below the fuel tank area) if the fuselage and all other control surfaces are free of all icing. If deicing is required on any other aircraft surface, the underwing frost shall also be removed. 5.27.2. Information on the removal and prevention of frozen precipitation is contained in T.O. 42C-1-2, Anti-Icing, De-Icing and Defrosting of Parked Aircraft. That's the only useful reference I've got for ya'. I'll have to look through GP and such next. Edit: - Just ran through all the NIMA provided pubs as well. No dice for anything useful there. Sorry I couldn't be mo'hep'ful. Cheers! Linda [ 02. January 2006, 23:42: Message edited by: Linda ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SnakeT38 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I know the USAF in the AETC program is SO FAR behind the airlines in terminology and effective deicing of their aircraft it is almost unsafe. I never found an active duty SOF that even knew what a holdover time was, the difference between de-ice and anti-ice nor climatic conditions conducive to icing conditions. To put it bluntly, in the winter of 1998, the Vance AFB deice program was UNSAFE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JArcher00 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Since we do not have an FE on our model, I spoke to pilots of traditional -130s who admitted that it was a FE job, not responsiblity to determine holdover times, through a tech order that is out. I sensed the pilot's lack of knowledge or importance of deicing procedure and consequences there of. Not starting a flame war but they were AD vs. Guard in the discussion. Since we can't use type 2 or 4 decicing fluid, the situation is diffent for us. Thanks for the response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest purplecaddis Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Redog, There is NO HOLDOVER TIME with military deicing fluids. They are simply a de-icing and not an anti-icing fluid. Commercial carriers even put out a warning to crews that there is no hold over time with military fluids. This is one place the USAF is sorely lacking in educating aircrews. Like Snake said there is a lack of knowledge not only on the de-ice/anti-ice but types of precip as well. For example what are the effects on holdover time (if we had one) between moderate snow and freezing rain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C-21 Pilot Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Caddis, et al... There is FAA Holding Times for deicing for military airframes. Kind of a "Catch 22" with some of our DV jest since we "are" civilian liners in a sense (Lear 35, Gulf IV, etc) versus a F-16, A-10 etc. Our Tech Order (Dash-1) gives us our info, as well as telling us to use the standard FAA Holdover times. I have the info, webpage, etc in my Gouge packet...but you get the idea. I do agree that there is a lack ok knowledge AF wide...but in the DV airlift world, where we fly a majority of our stuff civie style, we are up to breast. Cheers PS, if anyone needs the verbiage (procedures) we use, PM me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IGB Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I think that Caddis was reffering to the fluid (Mil Spec) not the type of jet. Mil Spec doesn't have a H.O.T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techsan Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 I know that AFFSA has adopted FAA-style holdover tables for us. I think there's a link on baseops.net...under IRC maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest purplecaddis Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Originally posted by C-21 Pilot: Caddis, et al... There is FAA Holding Times for deicing for military airframes. Kind of a "Catch 22" with some of our DV jest since we "are" civilian liners in a sense (Lear 35, Gulf IV, etc) versus a F-16, A-10 etc. C-21 I am not 100% positive but I believe FAA deicing guidlines are published for the civilian version of the military aircraft, the military just tags along. The guidlines are set for the fluid type and not the aircraft type. I should have been more specific in discussing the holdover times. The mil spec Type I has no published holdover time for the fluid. In the C-21 you are able to use the standard type II and Type IV because it has been tested and approved by the feds for the Lear, so you can get a holdover time. I do not know about the fleets other than the C-130, but we can only use the mil type I, hence no holdover times. Any other airframes want to chime in? [ 03. January 2006, 21:25: Message edited by: Caddis ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JArcher00 Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 I guess my concern was that the group that I was talking with seemed to believe they could takeoff using a 1 step deice with Tpye I fluid, while there was precip falling. I told them they were crazy. I got the picture they did not know much on the subject which was scary. Since flying in the commercial world it is a hot topic in the winter time, I gues I am shocked....I should not be shocked..that the AF crews do not get taught much about it. Thank for the views on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IGB Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 RedDog, What's scarier is when those charged with the responsibility for de-icing your plane have no idea what's going on. There were times I wanted to hop in the truck and do it my self. Some people don't understand that sheets of snow and ice have to be removed from the top of the -10 not realizing that there is infact an engine back there in the tail. A good analogy for de-icing is that Type I is "washing your jet". Once it's clean of snow and ice you then "wax" it with type IV when there is falling precip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JArcher00 Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Good one. You are right about the ground folks sometimes. It is going to take and Air Florida or something to wake the AF up. Considering winter ops ar not the norm for the AF I see the lack of education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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