USMC/Marine Aviation

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

I am well aware that it is not going to be easy and in a way that kind of appeals to me.

That is a very good thing. You have to be sort of sick in the head if you want to go that route (Marines). It is a lifestyle that is 24/7.

I plan to dive into this head first with nothing but pure devotion, and if I pull only that much off the only thing that could stop me are the flight physicals.

Good attitude there. Much better than earlier.

It is my mindset that nothing will slow me down accept a medical DQ (crosses fingers) and if the Corps (or whatever branch I end up in) decides to put me in anything but fighters then so be it, but it won't be because I didn't do everything possible to be the best that I possibly can.

There is a lot of time for you to change your mind and you most likely will a couple times. You know very little about different type/model/series, their missions, and their personalities and lifestyles. All of it is good stuff, and we couldn't be luckier to actually get paid to do this. Keep an open mind and just be damn glad to be there if and when you make it there. Enough said.

[Guest 35AoA]

rtstolwo,

it's been said already but the Marines are mostly Helos, and the limited fixed wing are hornets, harriers, & prowlers, so the chance of getting fighters in the Corps is slim, and really based on luck & timing. also been mentioned but Airwarriors.com has a lot of good gouge, just realize, as you have already seen, you mention anything about wanting fighters in the Corps & you'll be met with a lot of resistance, usually from the Helos guys. personally, i don't see it as an issue if a dude wants to come into the Corps just to fly hornets ... i know a lot of dudes who are in the Corps just to fly (both helo & fixed wing dudes) and suck at being an Officer, just the way it is.

as for life-styles, i "despise" the AF but they do it right ... troop welfare is priority with them. the motto with the Corps is to do more with less, and we are proud of that? the equipment is old, and falling apart, and remember the Corps is buying the least capable varient of the JSF. if i were you i'd exhaust every effort to get into the AF if that is what you really want.

as for the boat, it will depend if you get single seat hornets or two seat hornets. single seat hornet sqds are in the boat rotation, the two seat sqds aren't. based on timing though, i haven't been to the carrier since the training days, 4 years ago, and i'm single seat ...

anyways, good luck

[Guest SpectrePilot]

This kid seems to have lots of conditions on his service to his country: "family life", "fighters", "lifestyle".

I've said it on this forum before: after many years of flying, the Corps seems to be the only ones who are ALL true patriots and warriors, with absolute dedication to the mission and selfless service. If I could stand the haircut--(and if they'd take old men!)-- I'd join em today.

Anyway: They wouldn't want this guy. He'd never survive TBS.

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

Originally posted by 35AoA:

just realize, as you have already seen, you mention anything about wanting fighters in the Corps & you'll be met with a lot of resistance, usually from the Helos guys.

It has absolutely nothing to do with that. If he was in primary right now and wanted to fly fighters I would say he is a little closer to making that happen. He is not commissioned yet, so hence priorities at hand are a little phucked up. With age comes wisdom. I was probably the same way at that stage because I was uninformed and didn't know any better. Hornets are the most glamorized asset in the Marine Corps so you can't blame someone for being naive. However, now that I have been there and done that I am simply saying that he should worry about mile-markers that are a little closer and which he can influence more at this stage. I would say that regardless of what I flew....jets, props, or helos. One hurdle at a time.

[ 09. June 2006, 14:01: Message edited by: BigIron ]

[CrateOfThunder]

rtst,

-3 of the 4 Marines in my API class failed two tests a piece and are now in Primary (good guys...just not test takers I guess)

-Both my next door neighbors are Marines and can barely pass the PFT

-In college, anyone who got kicked out of the AFROTC program easily got picked up for PLC, where they would be guaranteed Aviation as long as they could complete the program

-USMC consistently has the lowest NSS for people getting "JETS" at Whiting, even making some people take jets who wanted helos just b/c they couldn't find enough Marines with over a 52!

-I know of at least two studs here who actually failed the program (NSS too low) and MATSG game them a waiver to continue on to advance b/c the USMC is so short on pilots

I am not saying that the Marine Corps in not a great service, if there is one thing down here that I have learned, it is to appreciate the other branches (even the coast guard).

But, solely based on what I have seen in my wonderful 9 months here, USMC is the easiest service to land a pointy-nose in, just more hoops to jump through!

Best of luck,

Crate

[Guest rtstolwo]

Thanks for all the info folks, I certaintly have a lot to think about. And JorryFright, I never meant to imply that fighters were the hardest things to fly...I was simply alluding to the fact that (at least in my unprofessional opinion)flying fighters seems to be a more complex mission than many others. They are such high perfermance airplanes that you are definately going to have to have some inherent skill in order to max out their capabilities.

And don't get me wrong, I don't feel like the other airframes require no skill, but flying a C-5 will never pit you up against an enemy in a dogfight kill or be killed situation where your survival depends on your ability to outfly your opponent who may be a damn fine pilot. All I was trying to imply is that I feel that I am up to that challenge. Somebody correct me if I am wrong in this assesment.

[Guest roy moore]

Sounds like a lot of people passing this cat hearsay and innuendo. I am a Marine pilot. I am long past earning my wings. If you want to fly jets, you might find a taker in the Corps, but your life will be "different" enroute to that desire.

I don't care about fat API or primary, or advanced Marines. They'll get sorted out at the Hornet FRS. Yes, its true, earn your wings and you might lose them at your very next command--I know at least one who had this occur . Orange and white students don't know jack--so don't comment. Dude, if you think you'll find a taker in the USN/USMC explore it, but we don't lap up USAF castoffs.

Don't tell me you want save grunts lives! I have been a grunt also. I don't need an ascot wearing freak with an Errol Flynn moustache to save my life. The Marine Corps uses CAS more effectively than any other service to attrite the enem

[Dstar]

I have decided to weigh in on this discussion. First, on opportunities to become a Marine pilot. As mentioned on page one in a post, yes the USMC gives pilot slots relatively easily compared to the other services. No other service will sign up an 18 year old college freshman for a guaranteed aviation training slot four and a half years in the future. There are some hurdles one must complete prior to making it to flight school. First and foremost, is the successful completion of Officer Candidates School. People get kicked out and that is that. PLC candidates might get to go twice, once after their freshman year and then after their junior year. Then you must in fact graduate from college (2.0 and go or at the worst 2.5 and survive). Then you report to The Basic School were you learn how to be a Marine Officer and a rifle platoon commander in a very intense 6 month period of instruction. After successful completion of TBS you get to go to flight school. You must still be physically qualified in order to start training. After successful completion of flight school, you then go to the Fleet Replacement Squadron were you once again must perform. So from the time you start TBS until the time you hit your first Fleet Squadron, it will most likely take you 3-3.5 years. It does not stop then. If you fail to perform in the Fleet, they can still take your wings and you become a Supply officer or whatever the Corps needs. So yes, at first glance, it appears that the USMC will give a pilot slot to anyone. There are many opportunities along the way to fail and loose the opportunity given to you. The USMC does not care what your grades were in college or what your major was. The USMC awards performance and leadership.

Another unique side of the Marine Officer is how his MOS is assigned. Unlike all the other services, a new Marine 2ndLt upon commissioning is either a ground officer or an air officer. When you report to TBS you get to compete with all the other 2ndLts for an MOS. Performance gets you your top choices. So if I have lost anyone, there is not a single Marine infantry officer out there who knew he was going to be an infantry officer until month 5 of TBS. The USMC will also reward some 2ndLts with an aviation slot out of TBS. Performance counts. The USMC is looking for leaders of Marines, not F/A-18 drivers.

On the CAS thing. I have controlled “purple” air and Marine air in combat with Gas and Trash. I can tell you that some communities are better than others. Rainman, I never had the pleasure of controlling a Warthog but overall the boys in blue did an awesome job putting steel on target. In fact, given the choice of a Viper and a Harrier, I would go with the Viper every day of the week and twice on Sunday over the Harriers who were supporting me at the time.

Rtstolwo, if you are looking for a way of life the USMC is not the service for you. The USMC wants Marines first, Officers and leaders second. They are not looking for want to be F/A-18 pilots. The needs of the Corps will determine what you fly. Big Iron alluded to that on page one as well. The USMC is standing up a new active duty HMH (CH-53E) and HMLA (AH-1W and UH-1N) squadron in FY 08. At least 2 F/A-18 Squadrons are going to be decommissioned. You do the math. Your greatest chance at being a Naval Aviator in the USMC is going to be at the controls of a helicopter. You are going to be on a boat and you are going to be given the chance to become a JTAC and shape the battlefield one GBU-12 at a time. Somehow I do not think that is the lifestyle you are looking for from your first post.

[Dstar]

123abc, currently all Marine JTACs are officers who are either Naval Aviators or Naval Flight Officers. There are a couple of exceptions with Force Recon but they are few. Enlisted Marine JTACs are in the works for the maneuver battalions. Having aviators that are JTACs brings some things to the fight that are not tangible. I can stand in a potential LZ and know if it is going to work for a section of 53s sling loading ammo and fuel. A non-aviator JTAC is not going to have the first hand knowledge to answer that question. He can look it up in the book and determine that the dimensions support it but might not know the soil composition etc. Same goes for dropping bombs or shooting PGMs. Shooters bring more to the table on that arena. They help the assault support helo driver and herk driver JTAC in that area. Aviator JTACs have the mental picture of what things on the ground the aircraft might be able to see in order to get the talk on accomplished quickly. The perspective of an aviator that can be learned but it takes time. What you get with a Marine JTAC is an officer who has the background as an infantry officer, supporting guys on the ground who he eats, sleeps, laughs, goes on patrol, and he went to OCS and TBS with while controlling aircraft flown by former squadron mates who he did the same thing. It is a small sick world that gets things done. When you are talking to an aircraft and they check in and you recognize their voice and they recognize your personal callsign, somehow people try harder because you are literally supporting your buddy. Just imagine flying CAS a year after a JTAC tour and talking to a JTAC in contact, you have been there in the past and will do anything you can to support that JTAC now that it is your turn. Just the way the USMC does business. We have been doing it since WWII and it seems to work. Enlisted JTACs are on the way and they are needed. We do not have enough pilots to fly our aircraft and we do not have enough JTACs to support the individual maneuver elements.

[Guest 35AoA]

Originally posted by Dstar:

... In fact, I said that I would go “purple” any day of the week and twice on Sunday in order not to have to deal with the sub par performance of a Harrier.

<rant>

and yet the Marine Corps will be trading in the Harrier for the F-35B ... have we not learned anything over the years or are we that desperate to have our niche to justify our fixed wing arm of aviation? open-source info → 7G limited, no internal gun, limited ordnance (unless you strap bombs to pylons, and say bye-bye low RCS), 1/3 less range than F-35A - 1/4 less range than F-35C (unless you strap on external tanks, and again, bye-bye low RCS) ... gddamn, if we goto war against N.K., we will be getting run down & gunned by Faggots (the Mig-15 type) because of that POS. the MC preaches CAS yet what good is a CAS platform that has no legs, no endurance, no loadout thats worth a crap, and no performance? to get anything out of the F-35B as a CAS platform, we will need external ordnance & tanks, a 10000' runway, and no S-A or A-A threat! sigh

<end rant>

as for the “Gladiator games” found in this thread and elsewhere in these forums ... as a MC Hornet pilot my ROE's are rather simple, all is fair game with a targeting priority starting with the AF, then Squids, and if i have to engage MC v MC, i'll start with the helo guys, then the Harrier guys last ... i usually avoid blue v blue engagements, i.e. MC Hornet v MC Hornet ... herc guys fall into the pink v blue category so i stiff-arm those ... and i'll skate when i sort out a pink v pink engagement, such as when 2 field grade O's are jockeying for position in their all too familiar head-bobbing-while-on-knees-under-bosses-desk maneuver. as a side-note, i have no problem with taking "Cheapshots" and are valid in all engagements, especially against f-16 fighting falcon drivers. speaking of fighting falcons, the best engagements ever are between them and eagle drivers ... those are my favorite and definitely worth monitoring!

anyways ...

Semper Fidelis

[Guest aabudei]

Hey guys, I was looking around for alternatives for a pilot slot. I did not get one in ROTC. I graduate in may 2007 and go to ABM school. I ran into a flyer saying something about becoming a marine pilot, and how they guarantee a pilot slot before starting the training. I was wondering if anybody knew anything about that. I'm afraid the recruiter will lie (as they usually do) and say that yea it's guaranteed, then half way through training find out that it is not guaranteed. Let me know if anybody knows about this, thanks guys.

[Guest CrazyNole]

I have a friend who went that route after he was "kindly asked" to leave AFROTC. It is guaranteed IF (notice the IF) you do well on some test they give you. Similar to the AFOQT in some parts I believe. Hope that helps and sorry I don't know the exacts.

[Riddller]

Actually, from what I hear, the test is more similar to the BAT (I don't know anything about the TBAS). They will gaurantee the opportunity to go to pilot training, if you pass everything, but I thnk that is for the PLC program. But remember, you go that route, you'll have to go through 10 weeks of OCS (think FT times ten), then go to The Basic School (TBS) for 6 months, THEN get stashed for at least a year as a SNAK-O before starting traning, with lots of down time between the phases. I had Marine pilot buddies in for 4-5 years and STILL not done with training... and they weren't $hitbags either. Something to think about...

Talk to a member of the the Marine "cadre" (they're actually called MOI's) at a school w/ Navy ROTC and they'll point you in the right direction... try to stay away from the recruiters.

[GreasySideUp]

Take a look at airwarriors.com. There is the same bs as on this board when trying to ask legitimate questions but you should find some answers there. Take a look at the Navy as well. They guarantee flight slots, if you don't pass the physical or a few other things you can get out with no commitment. As far as the wait it really depends on timing. Some people breeze through, others are stashed like Riddler said - what is going on now will probably be drastically different when you get there. What riddler didn't say was during those years of training during primary when you are not flying you are golfing, fishing or at the beach.

Good luck and definately keep your options open.

-j

[Guest Detzel]

Dude, don't join the Marines. Take it from a former Marine. Don't join the Marines. Going from being an Air Force officer riding around on an E-3 to being a Marine officer swimming around in the mud at Quantico is tantamount to going from heaven to hell.

I was in for 8 years, got one of the coveted "guaranteed" pilot slots, went through Quantico, then lost my slot when the needs of the Marine Corps dictated that I be an NFO. (Navy / Marine version of Nav.) I fought it for a while but at the end of my enlistment I walked. Now I'm in the guard with a pilot slot. I went from hell to heaven. Learn from me, don't go the other way.

And I've never heard of any BAT like test for Naval Aviators. All I took was the ATSB.

Another reason not to even consider this has already been stated. Even if you are an Air Force officer, you must go through Marine OCS. You'll go through there with civilians and enlisted Marines. Trust me, it's the least amount of fun you'll ever have, period. I went through the first half of the program, for certain contracts they split it up into two six week portions. I graduated from the first 6 but didn't go back for the second 6 due to the NFO debacle. I can tell you that those 6 weeks were dramatically harder than the 14 weeks I did in Marine Corps boot camp.

[Riddller]

Wow, bitter much?

You can hate or love anything, its all about the attitude. I was in the corps for 7.5 years and loved every minute of it. The only reason I came over to the AF was because it was easier to get a scholarship and to fly the plane I wanted. I'll love the AF too. Like I said, there's good and bad to both, it all comes down to attitude.

[Guest Detzel]

Well, maybe I ought to elaborate a bit. If you want to be a hard charger, go off and kill hadjis and stab people with bayonets, join the Marines. That's the place to do all that stuff. When I enlisted at 17 I didn't mind living in the dirt so long as I got to shoot my SAW. I'm 28 now. I need that crap like I need an infected scrotum.

If you want to lead Marines, go be a Marine officer. If you're lucky, you might just get to fly (most likely a whirly bird, mind you) but make no mistake about it, you'll be a Marine first, a Marine officer second, and a Naval Aviator a very distant third.

Now the original poster is in AFROTC. My point was that going off to the Marine PLC program from where he's at would be unpleasent to say the least. I did a couple semeters of AFROTC before I joined the Guard. If there is an exact opposite of the Marine Corps in this universe it's AFROTC. Now you've been through both too, and you may see it differently, but that's how I see it.

Bitter... no, not really. Don't get me wrong, I love the Marine Corps and don't regret one second I spent there. It's just a whole 'nother world from the Air Force. The Marine Corps is for people who want nothing more than to be Marines. If you want nothing more than to fly, stay away from the Marines, they don't need you. Go into an OSO and tell him all you want to do is fly and he'll tell you the same thing.

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

Sorry to hear that you had the experience that you had Detzel. It would be interesting to see how different your opinion might be had you been able to continue with your pilot slot in the Marine Corps. I've had a super experience up to this point. I've had the opportunity to do some incredible flying in various parts of the world and I would not trade it for anything. The best part of it all has been the brotherhood though between both officer and enlisted. I've had the opportunity to meet some amazing people that I don't think I could have met in any other profession. As Riddler slam dunked it, it is all about your attitude.

[Riddller]

Originally posted by BigIron:

The best part of it all has been the brotherhood though between both officer and enlisted. I've had the opportunity to meet some amazing people that I don't think I could have met in any other profession.

Amen to that! I'll be the first to admit, I didn't join the Marines to sleep in a fox hole and run through the jungle with my M-16, I joined to get some discipline and see the world. Bootcamp and the other schools took care of the discipline thing, as well as just being a Marine, but there's no better way to see the world than aircrew. I still have some great friends I flew with, officer ad enlisted alike.

"Swingin' with the Wing", as they say in the Corps, is a bit different from being a grunt. Officers and enlisted are much friendlier to each other, and it's more laid back. Its pretty much the difference between: "GOOD MORNING SIR!! YUT YUT... KILL!!" and "Hey, what's up Sir? How's $hit?" You still have the respect, you just don't walk around with a 2x4 crammed up your arse (extreme case).

[TheGreatWaldo]

I made the switch. I'm the one affectionately mentioned by futurenavaholic. You just have to ask yourself "How bad do I want to fly in the military?" You can go to an Officer Selection Officer (OSO) and get a guaranteed pilot contract before you even go to OCS. No commitment in college. Just make sure that what you're signing is a pilot (SNA), not NFO contract. As for being a Marine. It's been a blessing in disguise. Sure it sucks being out in the field for weeks at a time, but you get to do some pretty cool stuff that you wouldn't get to do otherwise. The esprit and pride you feel of being a part of an organization like the Marine Corps is beyond words. There are some pretty neat flying opportunities too. If you have any questions regarding any of the training, feel free to PM me.

[Guest Catcher]

I am a 20 year old Irish student and I would appreciate if anyone could tell me if it is possible for me to become a fast jet pilot in the USAF and if so the best route to take. I know that to become a pilot you have to be a commissioned officer and to do so you have to be an American citizen. I would be willing to do anything to make this dream a reality, including serving in another US military unit (e.g The Marines). I am also looking into the possibility of attending Universaty in the states, and I do have some relatives in the states if it helps. I would appreciate it if anyone could tell me what my chances are and if they can help me in anyway.

[Riddller]

Catcher-

Unfortunately, you really need to use the search function. Your question of "How do I become a fighter pilot" is in fact the number 1 most asked question on this board, and the #1 most answered.

I'll be nice and give you the quick version though.

1: Get your citizenship. I have a buddy of mine from Liverpool who just graduated Nav school and is going to be a B-52 Nav, so it is possible.

2: Get a degree

3: Talk to an officer recruiter from whichever service you want to fly for, write down everything they say, then do another search on this forum to make sure it's the truth.

4: Do everything the recruiter told you to do that was the truth.

5: Get accepted to whatever service you want to go into's version of Officer Training School and pilot training.

Like I said, this is the short short version, do a search and you'll get the details.

[Guest Catcher]

Riddler, thanks for the help.

I realise that I asked the no.1 question that is asked but I couldn't find anything about the likelihood of foreign nationals joining the AF.

How did your friend go about getting citizenship?

I heard that in a time of conflict foreign nationals in the military can obtain automatic citizenship.

Once again Riddler, thanks for the help.

Catcher.

[ 18. November 2006, 15:44: Message edited by: Catcher ]

[Riddller]

My buddy was in ROTC with me. He just applied, had to wait like a year, and got it. It might have helped that the Colonel at my Detachment called whoever was in charge over there. Sorry, I don't know any more.

[Guest djneymeyer]

Aaabudei,Catcher,

Kudos on your desire to serve, it is admirable in today's "enlightened" age. I wanted to throw my hat in the ring on this one and piggyback on what had been said about commissioning opportunities, specifically, the USMC. Call this a reality check, but if you are serious about the Marines, there are some things you need to know. For the Corps, you have the option of a guaranteed aviation slot prior to attending OCS (Officer Candidate School). The OSO (Officer Selection Officer) you contract with can set this up for you provided you meet all the physical, medical, and academic requirements. Then, onto TBS, for 6 months of fun in the Virginia forests and swamps... Once complete with those wickets and with your hard fought butter bars on your collar its off to flight school. Here is where the reality check sets in... roughly 65% of Marine studs go rotary wing, the remainder are split up amongst jet (Hornet, Harrier, Prowler) and KC-130. Do the math and you obiviously see that the odds are not in your favor. In addition, and it has been said before, the Corps will train you to be an Infantry officer first and foremost. This tenet will follow you around everywhere, Marine aviation's sole purpose is to support that 19 year old Lance Corporal on the ground, sending lead downrange to the bad guys. From the phrog drivers kicking ass in the desert to the Herk road show all over the world, we all support the grunts. With that being said, if the reason for joining is purely to become a pointy nosed type, do not blame the Corps when you are reassigned as per the "needs of the USMC" or you wash out of any phase of training prior to getting those wings of gold. Here is a link to a USMC aviation forum should you desire to look further into that option. The other link is to an officer recruiting webpage. Find an OSO to talk to and they should be able to discuss the citizenship issue. I know of a couple foreign born officers currently serving.

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/5671946761

http://www.marines.com/page/usmc.jsp?pageI...shRedirect=true

Good luck to the both of you.