HiFlyer

Just like Vietnam. At the big bases (Tan Son Hut, Danang, etc.) you always could tell it was the end of the month because the C-141s would have Colonels flying in on the last day of one month and out on the first of the next month so they could get their combat pay and tax exemption for two months.

If history is any guide, don't expect it to happen that soon. As I recall, from F-100 to F-4 it was about three- four years from the time the first aircraft hit an ops sqdn, and for the F-4 to F-15 and F-16 and from F-15 to F-22 probably about the same. It takes a while to get a good idea from mission-experienced pilots of what the TTPs (Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures) for a new aircraft ought to be before you start putting new guys into it, and to build a good supervision base from top to bottom to run things.. I'd shoot more for the 2012-2013 period, and thats assuming the first ops sqdn gets airplanes in 2010...which might be a bit optimistic.

Yeh, but consider they're replacing a P-3 fleet that had probably 500+ airframes at full strength!

By the way, the A400M (in my opinion) is a classic example of what happens when your military requirement becomes a politically-charged "jobs program"! Purpose and mission capability suffer in order to keep the voters working!

Yep, the first one or two of the new P-8s are off the line at Boeing's Renton plant and being outfitted for flight test as we speak. The plan is for 108 airframes to work alone or in conjuction with the BAMS high altitude componant (a Navy funded Global Hawk variation with sensors optimised for the maritime surveillance mission).

Nope, the Air Force isn't inventing this wheel, and it isn't a turf war. The SECDEF decided the Services (all of them) weren't focusing enough on what was working well in the current fight, so he put together a special team and tasked them to figure out what we had (in the ISR world) that worked well and what we needed to do in the short term. Then he went into the budget and identified money that was not getting spent (i.e., production money that couldn't be spent in that fiscal year because the project was not ready to move to the production phase), or excess funds from completed projects, or lower priority projects, etc. The task force came up with over a billion dollars. He then personally reviewed proposals to apply those dollars to projects that could be made operational in the FY 09 and 10 time frame and allocated the money to those projects. Project Liberty was one such project. It took a very successful Army program and applied the lessons learned to a "new" set of equipment. He gave the project to the AF because they had the capability to organize and apply the assets. The Army didn't have enough structure to quickly (in one year) absorb all the new requirements, but the AF did (people, ground infrastructure and assets). The Air Force saluted smartly and accepted the mission (a smart move, I suspect, or the new CSAF would have been the former CSAF the next day). Frankly, its a kick-ass mission, even if it may not sound sexy to the un-informed! And who gives a s**t what they call it? By the time you fly it, it'll have a name.

It begs an interesting question...if they always lose, why do they still exist??? Maybe no one can stand to keep them and they eventually leave. Its sort of the "skunk defense"....victory isn't worth the smell.

I've had several friends who did this very sucessfully. In each case they were pilots or navs who were beyond their intial flying careers (12-17 years in). They found a law school (that would take them) in an area with an AF installation, then found a job available which did not require much (if any) travel....jobs like HQs-level command post controller, support desk staff at a major depot, etc. In each case they had a three year (or more) tour, a fairly predictable work schedule, and bosses and office mates who understood what they were doing and didn't get in the way (helped them out with scheduling if a semester had tricky issues). What made this work was they were near the end of their careers, the school and work did not interfere with each other to any noticeable degree (i.e., they continued to be dedicated and effective officers while on duty!!), and the leadership did not perceive it as dodging their career responsibilities. They also usually worked the night shift, which was less active and gave them time to read or work assignments when things were quiet. It might be a little different if they were 5 year Captains trying to ditch their flying careers for the JAG...neither the JAG nor their current bosses would likely support that approach! Every one that I know of finished the programs, retire, and then went into active legal careers of some sort. Common threads...past 15 years active service, no desire to go beyond twenty, Lt Cols or Majors (Majors either passed over to LtCol or didn't care if they were). I also know one pilot Captain who applied for the JAG thru an AF program, was accepted, resigned his regular commission and became a reserve 2nd Lt while the AF paid for Law School, then graduated and was commissioned as a JAG Captain, with promotion to Major a short time later. But, that was a long time ago and I don't know if the AF still has that program!

As previously mentioned above, mostly hogwash, I think. I flew hundreds of "high" missions over a 20 year span, many over 11 hours (the standard mission in my early days). Several dozen knee or elbow aches which resulted in the flight doc saying, "let me know if it doesn't itself resolve over night", one more serious ache in the chest that required me to go by the flight med office after 48 hours for a "quick look", and one serious event which kept me in the hospital overnight for observation and a 96 hour grounding. That's it. I know of only one real RD in my time, which was exciting for the pilot but not a big issue...the suit inflated and the pilot returned to base (remember, the pilot wears a full pressure suit for that exact reason...if an RD occurs, the cockpit depressurizes, but the pilot is in the suit and it keeps him pressurized). Several more slow decompressions, over the 20 years, with little to no impact. I know of no pilot in the program really "grounded" (for more than a few days) simply for a bends event. Also, not only aren't the airplanes that old (virtually all built between 1983 and 1989), but the engines were replaced in the mid-to-late 90s, and the cockpit updated over the last few years with state-of-the-art avionics. They are as good as you can get. I retired a few years ago, but between Huggy, Kuma and me it sounds like we cover the aircraft from about 1970 to today. While there have undoubtably been a few oddballs in the crew force over the years...no unit is perfect...overall the crew force is a great bunch of people and I'd put them up against any unit in the Air Force for flying skill, comraderie, concern for their squadron mates and families, and mission effectiveness. Not better mind you, but just as good as any other unit you can name!

And your problem with that is??? If they turn UAVs over to non-officer pilots, UPT grads will go to flying positions. By the way, Chuck Yeager began his career as a 19 year old "Flying Sergeant".

Well, keep in mind that the Marines received their production aircraft sooner than the AF and did the original OT&E work, so they had more time to figure out how to use it to support their mission, which is more closely aligned to their existing CH-46 mission that they've had for years. The AF mission is a little more varied and they've had less time to work out the kinks. Any new system comes with its unique growing pains, and the AF will work out theirs just like the Marines did. Also, since the V-22 was originally developed largely from Navy/Marine requirements, and before the current combat scenarios evolved, the need to operate above 8,000 feet was probably not a major design spec put out by the DoD. My understanding is that the AF verson worked very well in its initial deployment to Africa. Yes, it was an "exercise", but you always practice a little before you try the hard stuff.

This is an interesting series of comments, but it reminds me of a lot of new aircraft I've seen when they first arrive. Somebody needs an aircraft to do a mission. In order to make it more acceptable to Congress, the Service PR people eventually claim it will perform every mission in the military, at half the cost. Congress then OKs the buy, but cuts the budget and actually expects it to do all that stuff (even though they know its BS), forcing the Service and contractor to try to make it happen. Since the meager dollars are now insufficient to perform all the extra stuff that got tacked on, the original reason to build the aircraft gets lost, and when it is finally delivered, it is only minimally successful for a while until more money can be found to fix the problems and refocus the effort on the intended mission. The most illustrative example of this was the F-111 (or F/FB/A/B/C/H-111, as some people described the result...McNamara wanted it to do every mission in the Navy and Air Force bag!). When it was over, it was damn good at the mission it was originally intended to do...low level penetration/attack for the AF...but it took 15 years to get there and cost a lot more money than needed. I suspect that the V-22 series will eventually be a great aircraft, but it will take a while to refine all the systems to optimize it and manage expectations.

Geez...this sounds more and more like Vietnam. We started with high morale, cowboy hats and handlebar mustaches from the Wing Commander down, and wound up with teams of inspectors from 7th AF wandering around the bases giving out reprimands for not having your shoes shined and uniform violations in order to allow us to "conduct the war more effectively." Expect it to get worse as the war winds down!

Mike's Kyrenia Bar, near Episkopi, Cyprus. Incredible Calamari, Cypriot beer and fries looking out at the Med...if its still there. For the hard core, The Blue Moon, NE 45th St in Seattle near the UW...a legendary bar but not for the faint of heart, or at least it didn't used to be.