Masters information (MBA/GRE)

[backseatdriver]

http://www.au.af.mil/au/dlmasters.asp

It is similar to TUI courses...threaded discussions, usually two papers per class. 11 classes to graduate. If you are a Maj or Maj(S) it also gives ACSC credit. Can start the degree as a Capt and finish it as a Maj to complete both PME and Master's.

It isn't very hard...it can be done by dedicating a few hours a week.

Plus, no TA is required.

Certain WIC grads can take the short course of only core classes.

You also get ACSC credit if doing the Captain course (Leadership concentration) or the WIC concentration. 3 of the core classes are ACSC blocks. Once you're a Maj(s) you just have to take the 4 remaining tests to complete ACSC.

Edited September 30, 2011 by backseatdriver

[LoneStar]

Interesting on the ACSC, I am halfway done with the Masters through TUI, now know as Trident University for their three pronged approach to academia, so please address them with the proper respect. However, I am in the middle of UPT and didn't intend on taking any more courses till I got winged. I can't imagine that anyone will accept transfer credits from tui, anyone have any idea for options?

[Homestar]

http://www.au.af.mil/au/dlmasters.asp It is similar to TUI courses...threaded discussions, usually two papers per class. 11 classes to graduate. If you are a Maj or Maj(S) it also gives ACSC credit. Can start the degree as a Capt and finish it as a Maj to complete both PME and Master's. It isn't very hard...it can be done by dedicating a few hours a week. Plus, no TA is required. Certain WIC grads can take the short course of only core classes.

If you can begin the day you pin on Capt then that may be worth doing, but if you try stretching it out to Maj (S) to get ACSC credit you won't be finished before your board meets (obviously). Isn't this a giant catch-22? You need the masters to get the DP on the PRF, but you can only get ACSC credit if you complete the course while a Maj (S)?

[brabus]

Agree homestar, but then again, what is the promotion rate to Maj without a masters? On the surface, this actually sounds like a "good deal" (still super retarded to have to do it, but sometimes you gotta play) in the fact you can knock out both masters and PME at the same time instead of getting a full masters as a Capt, and then having to do the full ACSC as a Maj. Am I missing anything?

[ThreeHoler]

Please read...you can do the program completely as a Capt and you will only have to do half of ACSC correspondence. This program is a pretty good deal from my perspective,

Again, it is not academically rigorous, but it can make you think if you are willing to put effort into the program. You will even learn some useful military stuff. You can also do most of the work while drunk...trust me, this has been demonstrated with good results.

PM me if you want more info, but I think this program can be really great with a few tweaks...and it is a pretty painless way to do the Master's or Master's and ACSC.

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

Please read...you can do the program completely as a Capt and you will only have to do half of ACSC correspondence. This program is a pretty good deal from my perspective, Again, it is not academically rigorous, but it can make you think if you are willing to put effort into the program. You will even learn some useful military stuff. You can also do most of the work while drunk...trust me, this has been demonstrated with good results.

I'm a little over half way done with this program as a Capt and recommend it to everyone who asks about it. I stiff armed the whole masters bit as long as possible and got talked into this program from my SOS flt/CC. It is pretty easy and requires minimal effort. The terms are 8 weeks long, 6 of them are typically threaded discussions with a mid-term paper (generally ~1000 words) and a final (about the same length). You can take multiple classes (up to 3 I think) in the same term. The most I have done was 2 in the same term, that took more effort than I wanted to give but I made it through.

The Captains program is 11 total classes, it shares 7 classes with the ACSC program. Once you get your line number to Maj you can take the other 4 classes and complete ACSC. Where I would tweak the program is with the 4 classes independent to the Captains program. If they let a now Capt (s) or junior Capt take those 4 classes and have them count as SOS (they are all military leadership classes) this program would be perfect. I have brought this up to one of the civilian dudes at Maxwell who runs the curriculum as well as pushed it to my Sq/CC for some help to make the change. It makes perfect sense and would save $$$ so I doubt the AF will adopt it. Just my .02 about the program. Feel free to PM me with specific questions.

[dream big]

Question for a soon to be LT in my first operational flying squadron, since this issue is constantly changing with RIFs, etc: I understand that a masters degree is essentially unmasked when going up for your majors' board. However, my peers and I keep hearing the advise to get your masters done ASAP. At what point does pursuing your masters degree come into play in terms of your senior raters? Obviously, I would like to be spending most of my time learning the aircraft to the best of my ability, studying the 3-3, helping out the squadron; but we would also rather not shoot ourselves in the foot by waiting to start our masters until after we pin on captain if it is true that a masters degree starts becoming a discriminator as early as we pin on captain.

[tac airlifter]

Question for a soon to be LT in my first operational flying squadron, since this issue is constantly changing with RIFs, etc: I understand that a masters degree is essentially unmasked when going up for your majors' board. However, my peers and I keep hearing the advise to get your masters done ASAP. At what point does pursuing your masters degree come into play in terms of your senior raters? Obviously, I would like to be spending most of my time learning the aircraft to the best of my ability, studying the 3-3, helping out the squadron; but we would also rather not shoot ourselves in the foot by waiting to start our masters until after we pin on captain if it is true that a masters degree starts becoming a discriminator as early as we pin on captain.

Valid question. If I could go back in time, I'd have started my masters after my first year and second deployment in my ops squadron, taken one class at a time and spent the left over time studying and being sharp at flying. I could have still easily had it complete at 03 + 6 months. Instead, I spent my entire first assignment (5 years) being really good at my job and deploying a bunch, only to cram the masters in while training on a new platform and deploying in a far more complex environment; and I finished 1 week after my board met. I did fine, got a DP, had the other boxes checked, etc. but it was more painful than it needed to be and I could have been just as good at flying and still gotten it done had I been better at time managment.

But the lesson I'd pass onto you would be: use your judgement to decide when you've estabilished a knowledge foundation in your platform. Once you're on solid ground and can spare about 5 hours a week, start your masters and take it slow. Be the guy who can always volunteer for a a TDY and is still awesome at your job, and take 3 years to do the masters if thats what you need. NEVER be the young guy asking for a day off the flying schedule to write a paper, you'll lose a respect you can never get back. But also use some strategy and don't be the guy who is cramming for his masters 6 months before his board meets like I did. There is a middle ground, you're a smart dude (or you wouldn't be doing this) and I'm sure you can find it. It won't hurt you to not have a masters as an LT, but if you can get it done while simultaneously being shit hot you'll impress people. Good on you for asking, and I hope this advice was helpful.

[brabus]

I'm with Hoss on all this. Don't burn time as a new LT doing this bullshit...focus your time on tactics, job in the squadron, etc. My viewpoint is you could do the "in before the buzzer" masters, but life only gets busier as you get older. I think starting as a just pinned on Capt gives you the balance you're looking for. Also, everyone has to make the choice of whether they're going to get a "real masters" or check the container. Ask yourself, are you doing this for the AF or are you no shit getting a legit masters that you want to use when you get out of the AF? Neither way is wrong, but realize the latter is going to take up a shitload more of your time. The way I see it, your masters work should NEVER take away from your flying, etc. The only thing I lose out on with masters currently is TV time, a bike ride, the gym once in a while, etc. It sucks, but the point is my time lost doing this bullshit degree is not affecting my job. So, give some thought to how you want to proceed once you decided to start the masters gig.

[RASH]

On the flip side--if you're a FAIP, you will never have as much time as you do now. Knock it out before you have to be concerned about SOS, instructor school, back-to-back deployments, WIC, etc.

[Jaded]

Or just do it the next time you're deployed. I had a ton of free time during my last 6 months in the desert. You can finish your AU masters in two 6 month deployments

I think that people who are working on their masters while they are home have a poor sense of priorities. You aren't going to get that much time with your family. Enjoy the few months a year the Air Force allows you with your wife and kids.

[Skitzo]

The time to commit to one class at a time from AMU is not unmanageable for me and I have three kids under 3 and a wife. If I were you I would research a program, decide on a course of action and start. Now I am going to be doubletapping classes in a hope to get done before the all important rack and stack. My board may be next year but the powers that be will rack and stack us well prior to the board and probably prior to PRFs being due. So hopefully April is soon enough to count.

[KWings06j]

Anyone know if you can transfer AMU masters credits to the ACSC online masters course? I'm not eligible to start that course yet and have already started my masters at AMU. I'd love to be able to knock out a bunch of the extra courses prior to the 6 year point and then finish up with the ACSC online masters course and be that much closer to finishing ACSC itself by the time I make Maj. If not I'll just continue with AMU and deal with ACSC later.

[Champ Kind]

For you young guys worrying about having to stuff like Masters/SOS/whatever and worrying it will interfere with upgrades.... don't.

Here it is from a MAF (pilot) perspective:

Roughly two years after you get the squadron, you'll upgrade to AC. Say 10 of you arrive at the same time. One of you will be regarded as shit hot and probably upgrade a month or two early. One of you will probably get a shitty reputation for sucking and will upgrade a few months past two years (notice I said you'll still upgrade, though). The rest of you will upgrade "on time". It just happens. After that, about 12-18 months later, you'll be going to instructor school. Again, unless you completely suck. I've seen this happen time and time again.

My point: just get the Masters done. I wish I didn't have to say it like that, but it's the truth right now. Your flying skills have less to do with upgrades than you think. Experienced dudes are getting out/shuffled to non-flying assignments/hit with 365s left and right. Guess who the AF thinks they will be able to replace them with? You. So, your AC/IP school dates are all but pre-determined the day you report to your squadron. All that you can do to fuck it up is (A) be the dude that no one wants to fly with, and (B) make it look like you don't give a shit by not banging out your Masters and SOS.

[ThreeHoler]

Anyone know if you can transfer AMU masters credits to the ACSC online masters course? I'm not eligible to start that course yet and have already started my masters at AMU. I'd love to be able to knock out a bunch of the extra courses prior to the 6 year point and then finish up with the ACSC online masters course and be that much closer to finishing ACSC itself by the time I make Maj. If not I'll just continue with AMU and deal with ACSC later.

No transfer credit at all.

As far as getting shit done...honestly, if a Master's degree makes or breaks your chances at promotion to Major...you're doing it wrong. If your leadership is racking and stacking Lts and even young Capts by whether they have an "advanced degree" from some shithole for profit online degree mill...they're doing it wrong.

That said, finding time to do the Master's degree is up to you. For me, I started it about the time my PRF was due. Is that the right time for you? Maybe. Is the right time for you right after you get to your new squadron and you're just out of IQT? Maybe...but probably not.

My current mentoring to new dudes I fly with is simple: 1) learn the jet now. 2) Do SOS once you're eligible, because then you don't have to worry about it...and if you don't get to go in residence for some reason...you're still promotable. 3) The Master's degree is up to you; but I recommend the ACSC OLMP because it is "free" (some courses have books that you have to buy/rent/borrow/etc), you don't have to deal with TA, you get "free" credit for 3 of 7 ACSC exams after you're a Maj(s), and you can complete it in just under two years...which means if you start it when you're eligible (Capt, 6 years TAFSC, and SOS complete) you'll finish it before your PRF is generated.

[Homestar]

Im with Champ on this...staying proficient in a MAF jet and taking masters classes are doable. I got started soon after MCT at my first base and took just about three years to complete an OU masters in IR. I spent good time at home when classes were out, never did school work on deployments, and was glad to have it finished by time I pinned on Captain.

In today's economy it seems like a masters is just the new bachelors.

[Chuck17]

Be careful.

There's a saying that goes, "dont get splinters." You get splinters by sitting on the bench. You sit on the bench when those in charge decide you're not playing well.

What I mean is that the worthless masters degree is a yardstick. Commanders use it for more than noting who is checking boxes. There is a preponderance of thought on the futility of the masters degree on this site. I am in full agreement. But I also have mine, and its a worthless degree. I am here to tell you that you are sending a clear message to you superiors if you don't show forward movement of the ball - PME, masters, etc. You want to lead your people? You want to stay in the cockpit? The price of that is getting the bullshit done. Period. You wont change it. You can rage against it, but the AF WILL find some way to marginalize you, one way or the other. You're 100% right, the AF needs you more than you need it. But when the AF decides it doesn't need you, you'll be out on your ass.

I have seen this shit in action, in AMC, PACAF and ACC. Everyone handles it remarkably similar. I know Weapons Officers who played the same hand - "Ive got the patch, they can't marginalize me." No masters, no PME - part of the 57th Wing, with the entire WIC, the T-Birds, etc, i.e., lots of good dudes. They got a P on their PRF and are at the bottom of the heap. They fucking deserved it. None of us is anything special. But you can make a case by showing that you're willing to move the ball forward.

I continue to find it markedly hilarious that all of these good dudes I know, great grades in school, top sticks at UPT, first to 2FLUG, 4FLUG, IP, AC, MC, etc, all end up throwing in the towel when the AF "expects" them to better themselves and get a degree (or quel horror at least a BAC+), do PME, etc. They don't do it and they shoot themselves in the foot. They see their bros get upped because they chose to check the box, get passed by, discouraged and angry. They give up after kicking ass in so much for so long. It's almost sad. This shit ain't rocket surgery. Get it done at your own pace, but help the AF help you by showing that you're moving the ball forward.

Too many dudes think they are entitled to a promotion. They are not. Promotion is about showing promise for leadership at the NEXT GRADE, not being rewarded for doing well in your current grade. You can show that by showing you're willing to grow the fuck up and do MORE than just fly.

The long and short of it is this: commanders rank their dudes. Not having the little things makes it easier to separate and strat you. Commanders spend the most time on the middle of the pack, not the top or the bottom. So when dudes bitch and moan about being good sticks, good dudes and good bros but not getting the queep in order, they are missing the forest for the trees. It sucks. I don't agree with it, but it's tough to make a case against it. Getting promoted and moving up the chain to change things requires luck and timing. But it also requires that you run the marathon at sprint speeds.

If you don't want to play the game, that's fine! But don't bitch about the outcomes if you choose to ignore the coaches advice and wind up on the bench.

Chuck

Edited November 25, 2011 by Chuck17

[pcola]

Who requires a masters degree? I haven't seen that in any regs. The AF isn't driving the bus here, its the "competition." Its the people who go out and use AF money to purchase a square and then call it a Masters degree. If people have to pay out of pocket for that shitty degree, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess fewer folks will do it. If fewer people are doing it as Lts, it will cease to be a "discriminator" amongst LTs. Follow the cycle to the end, and the situation reverts to where it should be: people with Master's degrees have them because either A) the AF sent them to get it; or B) they were interested enough to go out and actually get a degree that will be of use to them.

The only way a masters would ever be a prereq for an AU masters is if enough cock gobbling jackasses go out and waste AF money on a boxcheck degree, and then decide that they want to get an AU masters so they can look extra good for the boss. Its the people that perpetuate the paradigm that are the problem, not some mystical entity known as "them." If you (and this is "you" as in anybody reading this, but nobody in particular) are a person that says, "yeah, I know my masters degree is useless but I just wanted to get the easiest one I could get to check the box" then you ARE your own problem. If you feed the system, you are a part of it and have no one to blame but yourself. Since its obvious we don't have enough people willing to take a stand and refuse to waste taxpayers money feeding the diploma mills, the only hope is that the taxpayers stop giving us that money.

Wow. For such a bunch of highly educated officers, the critical analysis is really lacking. I'm quoting myself here because nearly everybody that replied after my post either completely missed my point, or just ignored it. The whole "not in any regs" comment wasn't ever meant to be the meat of the argument, it was something of an attention grabber, highlighting the fact that it's US (the very people doing the bitching) that drive the requirement, not the AF. Yes, I certainly acknowledge that the requirement is real, and I never said anything about not checking the box. Paraphrasing, but what I said was if you get a useless masters degree simply to check the box, you are part of the problem. I encourage all the younger guys/girls to get a degree. Get a degree that will teach you something. Get a degree that you can be proud to put on your resume. Get a degree that will challenge you to improve yourself in some form or another. If a TUI or AMU or Embry Riddle degree does that for you, great (really though?) But don't get a self-described "fucking useless degree to check the box." If you do THIS, you are the problem.

Furthermore, I'm also NOT advocating that everybody buck the system and stop using TA, or refuse to get a degree. Absolutely, use TA and enroll in a credible institution of higher learning where you will actually be challenged to grow intellectually. However, I am hopeful that TA will get recognized as the wasteful entitlement program that it is, and subsequently cut. I don't think a rational person could argue that the Air Force is seeing a worthwhile return on the TA expenditure.

In any case, if you made the choice to donate taxpayer money to a diploma mill solely for the sake of enhancing your promotability, please don't bitch about the fact that "they" are out there plotting against your free time and requiring these useless masters degrees. Instead, take a look in the mirror, that's the person responsible. And FWIW: yes, I'm working on a Masters; no, its not the easiest one I could find; no, TA doesn't even come close to covering it; and yes, I'll proudly hang the diploma on my wall when I get finished, and will gladly speak to it on my resume after Big Blue decides it no longer needs me.

Edited November 26, 2011 by pcola

[OregonHerc]

Does anyone here who's currently in civilian life have any advice as to which is more marketable...an MA in Management (Global Business) or an MBA? For what it's worth, it's an online degree from Alabama.

[Pancake]

Does anyone here who's currently in civilian life have any advice as to which is more marketable...an MA in Management (Global Business) or an MBA? For what it's worth, it's an online degree from Alabama.

Got it, not in the private sector. However, I did an MA in Diplomacy (International Commerce) through Norwich (online) and an MBA through University of AZ (in-residence). In my job hunting experience, the MBA is what interests companies. 1) Lots of finance and accounting - companies care about numbers, less so feelings... 2) An MBA is tangible, an MA is fuzzy.

Good luck and enjoy.

[Guest]

Does anyone here who's currently in civilian life have any advice as to which is more marketable...an MA in Management (Global Business) or an MBA? For what it's worth, it's an online degree from Alabama.

Depends on the job and the core of your MBA.

A finance centered MBA is required if you are looking for a job that requires a significant amount of financial modeling and analysis. A management MBA may be more valuable if the job is more general management or certyain types of consulting.

Ultimately, both are valuable as long as you can communicate the skills you have as a result of the education.

As a side note...I interview people coming out of the top 20 MBA programs several times a year. The questions I ask them are complex and drive to the core of their decision making skills and learning agility. I look to see their ability to capture results, comfort level with ambiguity and conflict, eagerness to learn, self-awareness, comm skills, conflict management approach and general SA. It is amazing to me how little a pedigree from a school helps a 20lb brain/quant or an entitled cocky SNAP.

In the end, it's really all you.

[daynightindicator]

Some info I recently learned last week that may be helpful to some on the board...

If you are currently completing the OLMP as a Captain (aka the "Leadership Concentration), but expect to finish the program as a Major select, you can call the office once you have a line number, and they will transfer you from the Captain-only program to the ACSC Master's program - in most cases you shouldn't require any extra courses (YMMV of course) and will get ACSC credit upon completion.

Also, successfully completing weapons school earns you credit for most of the core classes (or electives, honestly I forget since I'm not a WIC grad) - bottom line is that if you go the WIC route the program might be a great way to snag an easy masters degree and ACSC credit.

[joe1234]

This applies more for the active than reserve side, but if "hacking the mission" gives you some sort of great sense of personal satisfaction, then do it. But just realize that at some point in your career, you do it at your own peril. I promise you that there are plenty of people in every AFSC that can find a way to make it work, even yours. You just have to accept the fact that these people are going to pass you up in the career rat race as you fall behind and attempt deseprately to catch up. The guys who found a way to make it work are going to get the school pushes, the career broadening assignments, and the joint staff positions, as you remain at the squadron level "hacking the mission". That is, until the mission decides it no longer needs you and sends you packing.

Unrelated note, to the guy asking if he should get an MBA: remember that half the value of even getting an MBA is making connections, especially connections with guys working at powerful companies who got sent to do their MBA, who are now going to be going back to their companies and working in positions of influence. Also, targeted recruiting/career fairs that MBA students have access to, that the general population doesn't. If you can get access to those things with an online degree, then go for it. Otherwise, I think you're missing out on a lot of the value.

The GI Bill works very well in your favor based on the fact that you can go to B-school after getting out, but lose very little money in opportunity cost by not working, compared to people who go 100k into debt to self-fund it.

[backseatdriver]

I finished AU's masters program just before my Maj board and have been told by AU once the results are out there will be two ACSC-correspondence "pipelines" to register for: the full one, and the "supplemental" one - basically a "top off" for the guys who did the Leadership or WIC concentrations of the Master's as a Capt. Take the 4 tests for the blocks that weren't covered in your Master's (the four classes that make up the "Joint Warfare" concentration, i.e. the "full" ACSC Master's) and you're ACSC complete.

Since you've already finished the Master's you DO NOT have to take the actual classes to finish - just the normal ACSC-correspondence tests for the 4 blocks you're missing.

On a related note - for those that haven't started a Master's yet, AU is hands down the way to go. Don't have to deal with TA (therefore no ADSC), 95% of the reading material is provided via PDF (maybe a book or two to buy off Amazon - not actual textbooks), the stuff you're studying is actually relevant to your career (military history, organizational leadership, doctrine, etc), and grading standards are not very stringent. I'll be honest, I pretty much min-ran it to check the box and it did not require much effort. However, I still took some good knowledge away from it, and it's stuff I can apply now versus after I get out. And I'm almost half complete with ACSC to boot - not a bad deal.

[daynightindicator]

Big "2" to backseatdriver's puts. AU masters is a great compromise for those of us who hate the idea of box-checking but want to keep career options open, with the smallest impact on personal and professional lives. The teachers are mostly all retired O-5s and O-6s who are VERY generous with grading, late submissions, personal commitments, deployments, etc. Most of the students are civilians (which gets annoying when they put way too much effort into their answers and make you look bad), so I think they give active duty studs even a little more leeway.