Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) Certificate

[El-Fist]

Reference the FAR's, the ATP written is good indefinitely for military as long as you are/were an active flyer with a unit. Cheers

Good indefinitely for military seems like a bit of a stretch. There's a little more to it. It also seems like the type of equipment you operate could be a factor too.

(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a)(1) and (2) of this section, an applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate or an additional rating to an airline transport certificate may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report, provided that the applicant:

(1) Is employed as a flight crewmember by a certificate holder under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved--

(i) Pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; and

(ii) Qualification training requirements appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; or

[(2) Is employed by the U.S. Armed Forces as a flight crewmember in U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test and has completed the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the pilot certificate and rating sought.]

[BolterKing]

If you have ATP mins, you should've had your ATP done yesterday. If you're getting out in the next two years and don't have ATP mins yet, the written should've already been complete.

Procrastinators will feel the pain.

[slc]

Good indefinitely for military seems like a bit of a stretch. There's a little more to it. It also seems like the type of equipment you operate could be a factor too.

(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a)(1) and (2) of this section, an applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate or an additional rating to an airline transport certificate may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report, provided that the applicant:

(1) Is employed as a flight crewmember by a certificate holder under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved--

(i) Pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; and

(ii) Qualification training requirements appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; or

[(2) Is employed by the U.S. Armed Forces as a flight crewmember in U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test and has completed the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the pilot certificate and rating sought.]

Just did this a few months ago. ATP written completed in 2009. All the examiner wanted from me was a letter from the CO stating I had been an active mil flyer at the time I took the ATP in 2009. ATP complete!!!

[Jaded]

Is there any gotcha if you get a restricted ATP with 750 hours? Does it automatically become a normal ATP when you hit 1500?

[Dupe]

Is there any gotcha if you get a restricted ATP with 750 hours? Does it automatically become a normal ATP when you hit 1500?

My understanding is that you don't automatically get a regular ATP. Instead, you are entitled to a regular ATP once you've achieved the ATP experience requirements. That means a trip to the FSDO with your logbook. For a cat-and-dog service like this, a print out of rule that allows what you're trying to do helps.

"An airline transport pilot certificate obtained under this section is subject to the pilot in command limitations set forth in §61.167(b) and must contain the following limitation, “Restricted in accordance with 14 CFR 61.167.” The pilot is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the limitation specified in this paragraph when the applicant presents satisfactory evidence of having met the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 and the age requirement of §61.153(a)(1)

[moosepileit]

SLC and all- NOT every FSDO will understand that. In the airline world, Captains keep their CFI currency, if they wish, by showing they were a Captain to the FSDO. No FIRC required. Not all FSDOs like to do it that way. Why should it work- Capt/ATP = instructing future Capts and ATP>CFI.

This is a great way to save some $ but possibly screw up your window.

Suggest the 1st class medical (extra $, worth it should you ever need a SODA) Radio license, Fresh passport with extra pages option and ATP in hand at least 6 months prior to that magical future App window.

But, what do I know...

[Kapos]

Money aside, is there any reason not to get an ATP/737 Type Rating with 4 years of ADSC left? Any advantage to applying to the airlines with a fresh 737 type rating versus one thats 4 years old? Either way I'm getting my ATP ASAP.

I'll probably go with HPA for the full package or Accessible in MS for just the ATP.

[Prozac]

The crack down on the auto-ATPs that some examiners were giving has started. If you haven't gotten yours, recommend you do so ASAP.

This whole thing just dumfounds me. With minimal effort, the FAA will certify me to teach Joe Baggadonuts off the street how to fly a 172. I haven't flown light airplanes in years and this is something I have no business doing without proper training. However, if I want an ATP, the accepted route is to go spend 10 hours or so in a Duchess--with some instructor who's more interested in time-building than instructing--then go do what's essentially a single pilot checkride in equipment that I'm utterly unfamiliar with. Nevermind my experience is almost exclusively in heavy, multi-crew, turbine airplanes which happen to be much more akin to the equipment I'll likely be using said ATP on than the tin can I'm paying $100/hr to rent. Prepping for a no-shit FAA checkride in two or three days is doable....that's how I did it. But it was the least comfortable I've been going into an evaluation by a long shot. If you guys can swing it with your units, I would HIGHLY recommend getting chummy with your local FSDO and having an examiner come out to do the checkride during an instrument qual sim (likely not an option for the fighter guys....sorry). I know this has been done in the past and it HAS to be the easiest and most economical to do it now.

[jango220]

I have heard that the KC-135 sims are FAA level C+. It got brought up during a conversation since our Chief of Stan/Eval knows a guy who knows a guy who is a FAA examiner. Haven't been able to locate any of the sim cert paperwork that puts that into words, however. One of the issues that arose from that convo was that we wouldn't be able to use motion since non-aircrew/sim operators would be in there, so it would essentially be a red carpet sim. Don't know if that would be a showstopper for the FAA folks or not.

For those that have actually done the checkride, is the profile essentially our "annual" I/Q profile with the addition of approach to stall and unusual attitudes?

[Dupe]

FWIW: There's only two corporations I know of whot require an ATP for hiring, and neither of them are hiring right now. All the other firms only require you to have ATP mins and the written complete. Most outfits will then give you an ATP as part of their sim check. Ironically, I know a Marine Corps squadron that regularly invites a FAA inspector (not a DPE... a FSDO type) to fly with them in a C-12 to knock ATPs out for folks.

[El-Fist]

So where is everyone going to get their ATPs now?

I used Arizona Flight Training Center in Glendale about 6 months ago. I stayed at Luke which worked out very well. It was pretty much one day of ground school, one prep flight, then check. Very straight forward, done in 3 days. Nothing more than an instrument check with some single engine work. They prepped you very well for the ground eval. No surprises on the ground or check. I think it set me back about $2995. Obviously no type rating, but fast and economical. I would use them again. Good luck, don't wait!

[Prozac]

FWIW: There's only two corporations I know of whot require an ATP for hiring, and neither of them are hiring right now. All the other firms only require you to have ATP mins and the written complete. Most outfits will then give you an ATP as part of their sim check.

This may be true for the regionals, but good luck getting an interview at a major without one. As it stands now, you need to get it done if you ant to be remotely competitive.

[NotADude]

Money aside, is there any reason not to get an ATP/737 Type Rating with 4 years of ADSC left? Any advantage to applying to the airlines with a fresh 737 type rating versus one thats 4 years old?

FWIW, I just talked to a buddy who flies at SWA and he pointed out one (potential) disadvantage to getting a 737 type is that since SWA is the only airline that requires one, any other airline may look at it and see that they're not you're #1 choice. That had never crossed my mind 'til he mentioned it.

It's a no-go because there are exactly zero USAF MWS simulators that are certified by the FAA. Therefore the FAA can not legally give you a checkride in one without an exemption signed by the director of the FAA. Your only option to get an ATP on government sim time is if you fly a civilian jet with an AF paint job (C-21, C-40, etc.)

AWACS has a Level D sim, which I think means it would be eligible. I guess that would be the only upside of flying E-3s. That and the sweet 707 type rating.

[LockheedFix]

FWIW, I just talked to a buddy who flies at SWA and he pointed out one (potential) disadvantage to getting a 737 type is that since SWA is the only airline that requires one, any other airline may look at it and see that they're not you're #1 choice. That had never crossed my mind 'til he mentioned it.

AWACS has a Level D sim, which I think means it would be eligible. I guess that would be the only upside of flying E-3s. That and the sweet 707 type rating.

Here's the list of all qualified FAA simulators: http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/nsp/train_devices/media/All_FSTD.pdf

There are only three 707s listed on there and since they belong to Pan Am International Flight Academy in Miami and American Airlines, I'm assuming that is not who the USAF goes through to train AWACers.

I think there is a lot of bad info out there about how our simulators are certified. Even the sim instructors at Little Rock told me their sims were Level C certified. They may be equivalent to that level, but no one has bothered to pay to have the engineering report done which the FAA requires before they will come out and evaluate the sim for you.

I personnally spoke with the department head of the FAA's National Simulator Programm, and he told me he doesn't know of any AF sims that are certified, and I can't find any USAF jets on this list other than the C-141 at Altus and a C-130B down in Florida somewhere.

[El-Fist]

If SWA is your way high at the top of your list places you want to work, you have $10K and two weeks to kill, get the type. You will absolutely need it for SWA. I've heard nothing but great things about HPA. I don't know that it would hurt too much to have the type rating since most of the legacy carriers have 73s somewhere in their fleet. As far as the "first choice" issue at the interview, have a reasonable explanation of why you chose to get a 73 type if interviewing with other than SWA.

I personally didn't choose the type rating because SWA isn't on the top of my list. I also wanted the quickest and easiest way to be able to check the ATP box... I'm cheap and didn't want to burn two weeks of leave. And I'm lazy.

Box.

[Butters]

I think there is a lot of bad info out there about how our simulators are certified. Even the sim instructors at Little Rock told me their sims were Level C certified. They may be equivalent to that level, but no one has bothered to pay to have the engineering report done which the FAA requires before they will come out and evaluate the sim for you.

Also, for some companies, not only does the SIM have to be certified, but the training program as well. I have seen people have to scramble at the last minute when they found their AF sim time did not count for anything.

[BolterKing]

If SWA is your way high at the top of your list places you want to work, you have $10K and two weeks to kill, get the type. You will absolutely need it for SWA. I've heard nothing but great things about HPA. I don't know that it would hurt too much to have the type rating since most of the legacy carriers have 73s somewhere in their fleet. As far as the "first choice" issue at the interview, have a reasonable explanation of why you chose to get a 73 type if interviewing with other than SWA.

I personally didn't choose the type rating because SWA isn't on the top of my list. I also wanted the quickest and easiest way to be able to check the ATP box... I'm cheap and didn't want to burn two weeks of leave. And I'm lazy.

Box.

This isn't directed at you, but in general... you guys can "target" airlines all you want, but you have zero room to be picky unless you're independantly wealthy or have a wife that can shoulder the financial burden while you job hunt. I know several guys at my unit think they're just going to wait around for FedEx to call after they separate. They're probably going to be waiting for years. Apply to everyone, and take the first one that offers you a job. Competition out there is going to be fierce for a few years until movement really starts to happen. Everyone is getting all spooled up that Delta announced hiring, guess what? Off the street hires probably won't happen until spring of next year and even then you'll be behind all the flow-throughs, and Pinnacle/Mesaba guys that have deals. In a new hire class of 25, estimates are around 5 of those will be off the street guys. Then you're competeing for those few remaining seats with about 10,000 other guys from military/charter/corporate/regionals/expats.

WRT SWA, don't expect to see them hiring for a few years.

Not to be Debbie Downer, but some guys need to start managing expecations.

As far as the ATP goes, get it yesterday, whatever it takes.

Edited July 29, 2013 by BolterKing

[El-Fist]

This isn't directed at you, but in general... you guys can "target" airlines all you want, but you have zero room to be picky unless you're independantly wealthy or have a wife that can shoulder the financial burden while you job hunt. I know several guys at my unit think they're just going to wait around for FedEx to call after they separate. They're probably going to be waiting for years. Apply to everyone, and take the first one that offers you a job. Competition out there is going to be fierce for a few years until movement really starts to happen. Everyone is getting all spooled up that Delta announced hiring, guess what? Off the street hires probably won't happen until spring of next year and even then you'll be behind all the flow-throughs, and Pinnacle/Mesaba guys that have deals. In a new hire class of 25, estimates are around 5 of those will be off the street guys. Then you're competeing for those few remaining seats with about 10,000 other guys from military/charter/corporate/regionals/expats.

WRT SWA, don't expect to see them hiring for a few years.

Not to be Debbie Downer, but some guys need to start managing expecations.

As far as the ATP goes, get it yesterday, whatever it takes.

Couldn't agree more. Apply everywhere, and often. I also see those guys who don't want to work anywhere except FedEx, UPS, etc. That's crazy. That mentality will likely result in an extremely frustrating job search with a high probability of being unemployed.

FWIW I have seen some very HIGH QUALITY dudes get told "thanks but no thanks" after an interview. (I have also seen complete tools get hired on their first shot at legacy/package haulers.) You never know. Be willing to accept anything if you are trying to break your way into this industry. I know I am...

[SocialD]

Off the street hires probably won't happen until spring of next year and even then you'll be behind all the flow-throughs, and Pinnacle/Mesaba guys that have deals. In a new hire class of 25, estimates are around 5 of those will be off the street guys.

To help manage expectations, there are about 300 pilots at Compass airlines that have flow through rights with Delta. 25% of the seniority list (~450 pilots) can flow in a rolling year, so that means ~115 will flow over to Delta by next summer. Delta assumes the November classes will be filled by voluntary furlough returnees, and Compass pilots to flow in December. This doesn't even touch the Pinnacle/Mesaba flows.

[BolterKing]

To help manage expectations, there are about 300 pilots at Compass airlines that have flow through rights with Delta. 25% of the seniority list (~450 pilots) can flow in a rolling year, so that means ~115 will flow over to Delta by next summer. Delta assumes the November classes will be filled by voluntary furlough returnees, and Compass pilots to flow in December. This doesn't even touch the Pinnacle/Mesaba flows.

Pinnacle/Mesaba is just a guaranteed interview. No job promise, so big D can do what they want there. The only hitch in the Compass flow plan is that the airline still needs to operate. So they have to turn guys loose to flow without impacting operations.

The whole thing is curious how it will play out. Not only there but as the exodus begins at all the regionals.

[SocialD]

Pinnacle/Mesaba is just a guaranteed interview. No job promise, so big D can do what they want there. The only hitch in the Compass flow plan is that the airline still needs to operate. So they have to turn guys loose to flow without impacting operations.

The whole thing is curious how it will play out.

Copy all on the guaranteed interview. That reminds me, all the remaining Compass pilots (not part of the flow) have guaranteed interviews in seniority order.

You are correct on them still needing to operate. They could hold a few back, but I don't see them doing that right away. They are planning on hiring ~180 pilots and upgrading ~130 to captain, by next summer. That's a lot of training but they also have a 5 month (minimum) head start. From what I have read, they have ~80 in a pool and are running a class a week starting in August. There are also provisions for street Captains if needed.

I agree, it will be very interesting to see how they manage it...especially if they resort to street Captains.

[Hueypilot]

I'll second the thought that when it comes to getting a job with the Majors, apply everywhere, and be patient. With the upcoming attrition at the Majors (provided the economy doesn't collapse), if you're a military pilot with a decent resume (IP/EP experience, 1000+ hours of PIC time, etc) you'll get an interview somewhere within the next 5ish years.

I expect 2014 and 2015 to see some off and on hiring among the Big 3, and some very limited hiring among the others (FedEx, JetBlue, Hawaiian, etc), but by 2016 on the Big 3 will be losing around 500-700 pilots a year. Most of the contraction from the recent mergers should be wrapping up by then too. SWA *might* be hiring again 3-5 years down the road, adding to the competition for the well-qualified. UAL will likely be hiring around 50/month starting in early 2014 (after they work out seniority issues and get the last few recalls through). American will probably be hiring similar numbers starting in early 2014, although some of them will be AE flows. DAL's hiring probably will not kick into high gear until 2016-2017. I've heard from numerous sources at the major airlines that they are putting a priority on military dudes with instructor experience, so if that's you, I'd get that ATP very soon and be ready.

Also...don't discount Virgin America. I have a buddy who's an FAA safety inspector and VX is one of his airlines so he knows quite a few people there...they have pretty high minimums, but he told me to apply anyway because they will sometimes make exceptions for well-qualified military pilots. Most of the pilots seem pretty happy as well. They are almost entirely SFO and LAX based, and their pay is less than the Majors, but they could be the next SWA. They are definitely the "West Coast JetBlue". Personally, I'm going to "wait and see" with them, and in a few years if they are still around and healthy and I haven't been picked up by someone else, I'll probably drop an app there.

So bottom line, don't despair if you don't get a call in the next couple years. And I'll add from what I've seen so far, most of the new hires are primarily military with a lot of IP experience, and high-time Part 121 dudes. There is a smattering of people with other backgrounds, but I'd have to say the majority fall into one of the first two categories. If you're a fairly new military pilot with limited PIC time, consider the regionals. I think anyone with a combined 121/military background would probably be in the running for a job at the majors. Good luck!

[Danny Noonin]

Airlines were/are concerned that they would hire guys and pay for training only to have them leave for a SWA job later. The 737 type is a dead giveaway that guys want to be at SWA because its not cheap and only one airline on earth gives a shit about it, so dudes generally don't pay for that casually. The SWA issue was a big one for a while as the legacy guys were under concessionary contracts and dudes were bolting for SWA's better pay and apparent growth. I'm not convinced The SWA issue would be a giant deal anymore as the industry sine wave has changed with respect to contracts, profits and growth.

There is one constant in the airline industry: the "place to be" now almost never ends up being the best place to be 10 years later.

Having said all of that. the 737 type issue has--in the past--been a real issue getting hired at legacies.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Danny Noonin

[Recut]

I would think being able to say "I used the GI Bill so it was free" is a pretty rock solid "excuse" for having a 737 type rating. I plan on using HPA not because I want to fly for SWA, but because I'm getting Uncle Sam to pay for my ratings anyway, so why not get all I can out of it?

"2"

I'm in a situation where it's not worth transferring remaining GI Bill and incurring another 4yr ADSC. Like you said, I could use HPA for free to get my ATP (oh and by the way the type) instead of shelling out 2-3K for the ATP out of pocket. I see what people are saying about other airlines "penalizing" for the 737 type..............but I don't think I'd want to fly for a company that penalizes someone for having a 737 type....especially when it was a result of using up GI Bill.

Anyone know anyone in the industry that can spread the word that miltary pilots might get the 737 type because it is actually cheaper than out-of-pocket ATP? Would be nice if the hiring officials knew the real story.

Edit: stupid computer.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Recut

[Danny Noonin]

...but I don't think I'd want to fly for a company that penalizes someone for having a 737 type...

Holy shit dude, you are in for a very rude awakening on the other side of the fence if this is your real attitude. You guys think you're unappreciated and "just a number" in the AF, just wait. As others have said, apply to everyone hiring and take the first job offered to you. You never know if it will be the last one offered to you. Don't ever ever ever get cocky about your resume or your chances to get hired.

Anyone know anyone in the industry that can spread the word that miltary pilots might get the 737 type because it is actually cheaper than out-of-pocket ATP? Would be nice if the hiring officials knew the real story.

Sorry but they just don't care what your reason is. It's a business and a numbers game to them. There are hundreds if not more applications for every interview they grant. They can afford to be picky for whatever reasons they choose to include the increased risk of losing a pilot to another company. Maybe a few years from now they won't be able to afford to be so picky but they can right now. Having said that, a type is not a kiss of death outside of SWA by any means especially since SWA isn't and won't be hiring in big numbers for a long while. I'm just saying it has been an unhelpful thing to have on your certificate in the past.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Danny Noonin