Jump to content

Promotion and PRF Information


Guest e3racing

Recommended Posts



Ive been browsing this forum for years and thank all of you for the useful knowledge provided.  So, here's another question:
I will be meeting P0521 this year.  This is my IPZ.  From reading previous posts others have mentioned that the new 5-year eligibility window isn't in effect yet.  The only shot I have of being promoted is if all of my competition leaves first.  With that said, when im passed over this year, if Im passed over next board, would I be able to retire under the old rule (twice passed over) if the new system comes into effect after P0521 board?  Or would I fall under the new system?
 
TIA


Would you eligible to retire otherwise (i.e. 18ish years TIS now for 2 promotion boards to go by)? Otherwise, you'd need to be offered and accept continuation to the point you can retire. I don't believe the AF is offering early retirements right now.
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 7k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Well Gents, it’s been fun but Duck is now a twice passed over Captain on his way out the door. I appreciate all of you who reached out and offered me advice throughout the years. I know that I will ha

They are missing WHY dudes are disgruntled. I've been around a long time, as you have. There have certainly been boom and bust cycles for morale. This one is far different than what I think can f

Yes...and shockingly, got picked up 1 APZ with a 5/10 push line and P on the PRF. Sometimes there is justice in the system.

Posted Images

13 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

I have over 20 years (Prior E), and not looking for continuation.  My ADSC goes until Jul 2022.  If I am a non-select for this board (meets next week'ish), do I have the option to retire after the results are released?  Or is it required to meet the 2nd board?  I know 2nd board is used to offer continuation or not, but if I dont want to be continued do I have to wait for the second one?  I cant find the correct answer in 36-2501.  If I told the board I dont want to promote, do I still have to serve out my ADSC? 

 


Would you eligible to retire otherwise (i.e. 18ish years TIS now for 2 promotion boards to go by)? Otherwise, you'd need to be offered and accept continuation to the point you can retire. I don't believe the AF is offering early retirements right now.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have an ADSC, you have to get passed over twice and decline continuation to remove the ADSC early and retire. So in your case, it looks like you're stuck until your ADSC even if you get passed over this time around. Though if you know you're wanting to get out, you can just submit for retirement 1 year out (so July 2021).

Basically, getting passed over once has no effect on any of your ADSCs, they would still be in force.

There's also something about how long you have to have served as an officer to retire as an officer, not to sure what that is off hand, but that may be a factor in your decision.

Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

If you have an ADSC, you have to get passed over twice and decline continuation to remove the ADSC early and retire. So in your case, it looks like you're stuck until your ADSC even if you get passed over this time around. Though if you know you're wanting to get out, you can just submit for retirement 1 year out (so July 2021).

Basically, getting passed over once has no effect on any of your ADSCs, they would still be in force.

There's also something about how long you have to have served as an officer to retire as an officer, not to sure what that is off hand, but that may be a factor in your decision.

That mostly answers my question. Time as an O is a non-factor. The AFI never specifically states if passed over the first time, the member could decide to separate/retire. Just the 2nd board that matters from putting the ball in the AF court.  Now I just gotta find out if the twice passed over will change when we go to a 5 year window. Even if for some odd reason I made it, pin-on would be in the last promotion increments, the same time I plan on being in SkillsBridge/terminal
 

thanks

Link to post
Share on other sites



That mostly answers my question. Time as an O is a non-factor. The AFI never specifically states if passed over the first time, the member could decide to separate/retire. Just the 2nd board that matters from putting the ball in the AF court.  Now I just gotta find out if the twice passed over will change when we go to a 5 year window. Even if for some odd reason I made it, pin-on would be in the last promotion increments, the same time I plan on being in SkillsBridge/terminal
 
thanks


If you intend to retire at your ADSC expiration and have put in retirement paperwork, I don't think your package goes to the board since you have a retirement date set, so it's moot, you'll be retiring anyways.

There's also a host of other reasons to put in for retirement as soon as you know you're ready to get out. Takes you out of the 365 bucket (though you could 3 day opt), and it's harder to get tagged with a 179 deployment (6 months post deployment time before separation, though not impossible).

I don't think the 5 year window has been fleshed out yet, so who knows. But in your situation, I don't think it matters either way since your ADSC isn't too far off.
Link to post
Share on other sites

On the topic of IDE...back when I was a Lt at my first assignment, everyone and their mother was pushing masters degrees as if it was a make or break box to check in my career. However, I had seen the writing on the wall and made the choice not to pursue it since the pendulum seemed to start heading the other way, and cramming masters work in during a deployment just wasn't my cup of tea. Luckily the timing worked out just fine for me. But now I'm being asked if I want to get put in for IDE, and I feel the same way. O4-O5+ manning is weak across the board, there's no way they're going to use it as a discriminator until manning gets too fat again and I know plenty of commanders who didn't check that box. Hell, the AFPC commander at SOS years ago pretty much told us straight up making O6 often comes down to whoever sticks it out long enough to not turn down a 365.  7 day opts shut the door on more O5-O6 promotions than records do.  Seems like those who are already groomed for the command track are the ones going anyways and it won't make that much of a difference. Anything I'm off the mark on for the near future?

Edited by fox two
Link to post
Share on other sites
On the topic of IDE...back when I was a Lt at my first assignment, everyone and their mother was pushing masters degrees as if it was a make or break box to check in my career. However, I had seen the writing on the wall and made the choice not to pursue it since the pendulum seemed to start heading the other way, and cramming masters work in during a deployment just wasn't my cup of tea. Luckily the timing worked out just fine for me. But now I'm being asked if I want to get put in for IDE, and I feel the same way. O4-O5+ manning is weak across the board, there's no way they're going to use it as a discriminator until manning gets too fat again and I know plenty of commanders who didn't check that box. Hell, the AFPC commander at SOS years ago pretty much told us straight up making O6 often comes down to whoever sticks it out long enough to not turn down a 365.  7 day opts shut the door on more O5-O6 promotions than records do.  Seems like those who are already groomed for the command track are the ones going anyways and it won't make that much of a difference. Anything I'm off the mark on for the near future?


My take on PME in the current environment from the cheap seats...

With the removal of “off-the-board” IDE/SDE designees, the playing field has leveled a bit and statistically, the average person’s (average as in “generic” not record or performance) chances of being selected improved. At the same time, the retention issues led to the relaxation of some parts of the process (no prejudice for turning it down, trading slots, etc). Tons of people picked up off the alt lists as well. It became a buyer’s market.

COVID is obviously impacting the retention piece but I doubt AFPC has any idea of how that plays out long term. I think the inertia of the current situation will last at least another cycle or two.

I’m not promoting or deriding PME - like anything else it’s great for some folks (break in Ops tempo, some great locations if not at Maxwell), it also brings sacrifices (multiple moves, payback tours, ADSC). In general it offers more folks an opportunity to compete for PME if they want to, and therefore more folks will be in the mix for SQ/CC opportunities as well.

Promotions are facing a similar situation. I know a few folks who picked up O-6 on the most recent board without any traditional commands or res SDE. USAF is hurting for O-6s and that need will trickle down to the O-5 boards. Word on the street is that even the Colonels’ group is beginning to understand that folks’ personal preferences will need to be met (previously something they never gave an F about) in order to retain enough folks to man Pentagon desks.

The aperture has widened for certain career and promotion opportunities, but like anything else, it’s totally up to the individual to weigh cost/benefit.

FWIW I attended non-USAF IDE in res off the alternate board. Great year doing non-AF stuff.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
Wing King numbnuts who failed to give me my continuation paperwork. I received an email to pick up my PRF 3 weeks ago. I told his secretary I have been approved for retirement. Did you guys even look? 
Led me to look in the regulation. There is no mention of you not having to submit a PRF if you've been approved to retire. Usually, if you're passed over twice you don't have to submit one. I couldn't find that in the regulation either.


It's in the promotion board eligibility criteria on myPers (not in the AFI) set for each board on who's being considered for that board. Usually there are stipulations if you have a retirement/separation date set (usually at the time of the accountability date), and where that cut off is on if you'll be considered or not (basically, save the board some time if you've been approved to get out anyways).

A PRF gets submitted even after you've been passed over twice if you're otherwise eligible for the board, though normally it's just blank (i.e. senior rater is likely going to spend approximately zero time on it). Maybe that'll change with the bigger promotion window.
Link to post
Share on other sites



At a base far far away. We had a passed over major in ACC. The major asked me if it was optional? The group and wing said yeah, it's optional for him. This was in 2018. I am pretty sure it was his third or fourth time. I didn't submit anything for him if my memory serves me correct.


The individual doesn't have to submit anything (I mean, by the letter of the AFI, you don't have to submit anything to you rater for PRF or OPR). Typically, once you've been passed over twice, you're no longer considered really promotable, so no one is going to spend time writing and coording on a PRF that "doesn't matter." So it used to just be a blank PRF with a "promote" to save wing/group/sq exec time.

Though recently (I want to say starting on the 2017 boards), guidance changed to where being APZ was supposed to be ignored for promotion consideration. But again, it's up to the senior rater on what they want to submit (not the individual going to the board)
Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm wondering how long until OPR's will also have a static closeout date...And here I thought my #1 SNACKO strat was strong
https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2519199/air-force-announces-officer-stratification-guidance/fbclid/IwAR0ZMyPcI7mMlft8KsjEjCFBTRRUexCi6Lq5wSePizQpLYYHckL7AvUU7E8/

I hope that they do implement SCODs for officers.

I think it would cut down on the quarterly/semi annual rack and stacks that consume a lot of time and condense them down. But then again what do I know.
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, jrizzell said:

I'm wondering how long until OPR's will also have a static closeout date...And here I thought my #1 SNACKO strat was strong

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2519199/air-force-announces-officer-stratification-guidance/fbclid/IwAR0ZMyPcI7mMlft8KsjEjCFBTRRUexCi6Lq5wSePizQpLYYHckL7AvUU7E8/

Sounds like there are going to be a lot less strats overall since you have to pair functional with a rank strat. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, BeefBears said:

Sounds like there are going to be a lot less strats overall since you have to pair functional with a rank strat. 

Are we going to get better at telling people where they stand before they're signing their own OPR?

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/3/2021 at 3:14 PM, pawnman said:

Are we going to get better at telling people where they stand before they're signing their own OPR?

I’ve asked various commanders I’ve worked for why we don’t strat more than 15-20% unlike the Marines that strat everyone.  Most say something along the lines of “the Air Force doesn’t care about you if you’re not in the top 15-20%.  It’s just another method to discretely maintain an HPO system. 
 

I wish we would strat everyone 1-n, there should be no question on where an officer stands relative to their peers.  But that would eliminate the cat string that causes officers to think that they still have a chance.

  • Upvote 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, dream big said:

I’ve asked various commanders I’ve worked for why we don’t strat more than 15-20% unlike the Marines that strat everyone.  Most say something along the lines of “the Air Force doesn’t care about you if you’re not in the top 15-20%.  It’s just another method to discretely maintain an HPO system. 
 

I wish we would strat everyone 1-n, there should be no question on where an officer stands relative to their peers.  But that would eliminate the cat string that causes officers to think that they still have a chance.

Problem is he is right. The AF doesn't care about those outside the top 25% or so. Only the top 15% will go to school and very few other people will command. The r ality is the AF doesn't need you to stay past major. They need a pilot, so they offer a bonus (unless your an 11R). But as an officer, if you aren't on track to command, you don't really offer a lot of value to the organization. So the best think you can do for you own sanity is determine early on if command is important to you or not. If it's not, divorce yourself from the strat/careerism game as early as possible and don't worry about impressing people with you superior christmas party planning skills. Come to work to fly and try to do little else. If you aren't a complete dirt bag, and check your boxes, you will still make Lt Col and retire, making the same pay as everyone else. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Come to work to fly and try to do little else. If you aren't a complete dirt bag, and check your boxes, you will still make Lt Col and retire, making the same pay as everyone else. 


In AMC, this advice will put you in the bottom 15% and you won’t make Lt Col.
Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference between major and ltcol pay at 20 is about 12%.  With flyers being pretty much autocontinued, you really have to debate whether those extra hoops are worth jumping through.

Edited by BeefBears
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

 


In AMC, this advice will put you in the bottom 15% and you won’t make Lt Col.

 

It will definitely get you a P on the PRF which is a 50/50 shot. I’m exhibit A. Luck of a coin flip I guess. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/4/2021 at 1:48 PM, FLEA said:

Problem is he is right. The AF doesn't care about those outside the top 25% or so. Only the top 15% will go to school and very few other people will command. The r ality is the AF doesn't need you to stay past major. They need a pilot, so they offer a bonus (unless your an 11R). But as an officer, if you aren't on track to command, you don't really offer a lot of value to the organization. So the best think you can do for you own sanity is determine early on if command is important to you or not. If it's not, divorce yourself from the strat/careerism game as early as possible and don't worry about impressing people with you superior christmas party planning skills. Come to work to fly and try to do little else. If you aren't a complete dirt bag, and check your boxes, you will still make Lt Col and retire, making the same pay as everyone else. 

About that...

I made it on the second go.  But even prior, I was doing a lot more than min-running my time and showing up only to fly, and I still got passed over IPZ.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tiger said:

For example, if a commander DNP’s a 1Lt for promo to Captain on his first eligible look, will he then be ABZ on the next go around?  

Yes. His IPZ was a DNP. Next year up is APZ

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/12/2021 at 10:40 PM, Tiger said:

Got it.  So when they announce selection results for a 100% eligible board and a few officers are selected APZ, I would assume they most likely were given DNP PRF’s the last time.

I believe 100% eligible still doesn't mean 100% promoted, unless you're talking specifically about O1-O3. I've known 2 dudes part of the 100% eligible, one DNP and one P and neither made it.  Knew another guys who's package (STS) was just shit and somehow made it APZ to Maj.

Ready for spears if I'm wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

I believe 100% eligible still doesn't mean 100% promoted, unless you're talking specifically about O1-O3. I've known 2 dudes part of the 100% eligible, one DNP and one P and neither made it.  Knew another guys who's package (STS) was just shit and somehow made it APZ to Maj.

Ready for spears if I'm wrong.

It's certainly a weird way of phrasing it...isn't everyone in the right year group "eligible" for promotion at every board?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...