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The senior guys I trust the most are those guys that have made mistakes and pressed through it to get where they are today. I dare say they are better leaders overall because they had so much more to overcome to succeed as compared to a golden child.

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That’s exactly what I’m wondering.  I read the DoDI mentioned in the article and it says it only applies to O-4 boards and above, or to O-3 boards if there was “significant media attention” - whatever the hell that means - so maybe only guys getting ready to meet FGO boards are under the gun?  Also it said said the retroactive thing only applies to “select” adverse actions, not sure what that means.
Either way I agree with the sentiment, this is ridiculous and congress is equally to blame for passing such a law. 


So what's your solution for differentiating a one time mistake and a pattern of bad behavior?

The idea of putting a UIF after a certain amount of time assumes the person has been rehabilitated. But it also means if they are a repeat offender, their may not be any documentation that establishes that pattern, so they may slide by. It also assumes that bad behavior is captured on the performance report, which only send to happen if the behavior is egregious enough to drive a referral report.

Our evaluation system is pretty poor as well- unless you have the secret decoder ring, it's very hard to distinguish between people outside of strats, which recently were reigned in due to way to many soft strats making it difficult to actually distinguish people. The army at least does above/below/center of mass to clearly state where that person falls. That also has some shortcomings (quotas for the rater, which can hurt in a unit that is above average)

Basically, Congress is saying that it doesn't trust DoD's ability to vet it's own promotions, so they are adding requirements they think will happen. And remember, our officer promotions starting at O-4 are approved by the Senate, though generally they don't get involved, though they could, especially if something drives "excessive media attention."

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I think this is just going to result in “MFRs documenting verbal counseling” becoming the new “desk LOC.”  If a guy screws up, and doesn’t get his act together, the CC can make the decision to write it up officially at that point. 

Edited by CaptainMorgan
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Does Bass getting roasted all over YouTube count?  Or the rules don’t apply to her I guess.  
NCOs don't get vetted by the Senate, and it's not like she can get promoted any further without commissioning, so it's a moot point in this case. So yeah, that rule doesn't apply to her.

That being said, it's our job as officers to lead and discipline our enlisted (and ourselves). I'm sure someone in the CSAF's office (or at least PA) has had a talk with her, and if not, well, I'd be disappointed. And if we don't handle the situation, Congress could decide to weigh in if it garners too much negative press. Which it hasn't, and likely won't.

That's not to say her comments weren't wrong (they are), but there likely won't be a public admonishment. People cry about this being a one mistake AF, and then complain when leadership decides not to crucify people for a mistake. So long as the CSAF has confidence in her, she'll stay right where she is.
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/1/2021 at 11:41 PM, CaptainMorgan said:


Yes, did mine in October or November. They compare your records to the bottom 10 above the cut line. Biggest takeaway was having Definitely Promote on your push line if you don’t have the box checked. Strats, of course, matter. I didn’t have any FGO awards, but he said that was offset by the CGO awards I had. SDE push lines on OPRs help. Jobs above the Wing level help. Basically all things that it’s probably too late to improve on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

how you looking for this upcoming board? PRFs should be back by now with the members. Did your chances improve?

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Going into O521 I’m a 1APZ with 3/8 IAPZ eligibles and 7/90 WG Majors...with a P.
If I don’t get promoted how much time do I have to develop my path to the Guard/Reserve before I need to sign continuation?
I believe it's 30 days from notification of being passed over to accept/decline continuation, and if you decline, you have to separate within 6 months from public release of the board results. So not a lot of time.
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3 hours ago, jazzdude said:
5 hours ago, Sean00xj said:
Going into O521 I’m a 1APZ with 3/8 IAPZ eligibles and 7/90 WG Majors...with a P.
If I don’t get promoted how much time do I have to develop my path to the Guard/Reserve before I need to sign continuation?

I believe it's 30 days from notification of being passed over to accept/decline continuation, and if you decline, you have to separate within 6 months from public release of the board results. So not a lot of time.

That said...continuation doesn't carry an ADSC.  So you can accept continuation and immediately begin looking for a Guard/Reserve unit.

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That said...continuation doesn't carry an ADSC.  So you can accept continuation and immediately begin looking for a Guard/Reserve unit.
Continuation doesn't, but accepting it means any ADSC you have or incur remains (as long as the ADSC doesn't take you past the point your continuation ends), which may affect your exit if that's the path you want to take.

Declining continuation overrides any ADSC to set the 6-month separation date
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2 hours ago, MyCS said:

It's actually 60 days. Your local promotions office will forward them to AFPC after they receive the continuation paperwork from every officer.

Why do I know this? Because of my wing king and his civilian executive director not having a clue about continuation, ADSCs, or pilots. 

I mean, when your plan is to stay in no matter what, why would you bother with the mundane details of how people get out? They should just be committed no matter what like you are!

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2 hours ago, Shakermaker said:

Anyone knows what happens, if anything, to eligibles when the SR on their PRF is relieved of command a handful of days prior to the board?  Asking for a friend...

Was your PRF signed and submitted? If so, then nothing happens unless you had a reason to submit a “Stop File.”

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Ive been browsing this forum for years and thank all of you for the useful knowledge provided.  So, here's another question:

I will be meeting P0521 this year.  This is my IPZ.  From reading previous posts others have mentioned that the new 5-year eligibility window isn't in effect yet.  The only shot I have of being promoted is if all of my competition leaves first.  With that said, when im passed over this year, if Im passed over next board, would I be able to retire under the old rule (twice passed over) if the new system comes into effect after P0521 board?  Or would I fall under the new system?

 

TIA

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Ive been browsing this forum for years and thank all of you for the useful knowledge provided.  So, here's another question:
I will be meeting P0521 this year.  This is my IPZ.  From reading previous posts others have mentioned that the new 5-year eligibility window isn't in effect yet.  The only shot I have of being promoted is if all of my competition leaves first.  With that said, when im passed over this year, if Im passed over next board, would I be able to retire under the old rule (twice passed over) if the new system comes into effect after P0521 board?  Or would I fall under the new system?
 
TIA


Would you eligible to retire otherwise (i.e. 18ish years TIS now for 2 promotion boards to go by)? Otherwise, you'd need to be offered and accept continuation to the point you can retire. I don't believe the AF is offering early retirements right now.
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13 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

I have over 20 years (Prior E), and not looking for continuation.  My ADSC goes until Jul 2022.  If I am a non-select for this board (meets next week'ish), do I have the option to retire after the results are released?  Or is it required to meet the 2nd board?  I know 2nd board is used to offer continuation or not, but if I dont want to be continued do I have to wait for the second one?  I cant find the correct answer in 36-2501.  If I told the board I dont want to promote, do I still have to serve out my ADSC? 

 


Would you eligible to retire otherwise (i.e. 18ish years TIS now for 2 promotion boards to go by)? Otherwise, you'd need to be offered and accept continuation to the point you can retire. I don't believe the AF is offering early retirements right now.

 

 

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If you have an ADSC, you have to get passed over twice and decline continuation to remove the ADSC early and retire. So in your case, it looks like you're stuck until your ADSC even if you get passed over this time around. Though if you know you're wanting to get out, you can just submit for retirement 1 year out (so July 2021).

Basically, getting passed over once has no effect on any of your ADSCs, they would still be in force.

There's also something about how long you have to have served as an officer to retire as an officer, not to sure what that is off hand, but that may be a factor in your decision.

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58 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

If you have an ADSC, you have to get passed over twice and decline continuation to remove the ADSC early and retire. So in your case, it looks like you're stuck until your ADSC even if you get passed over this time around. Though if you know you're wanting to get out, you can just submit for retirement 1 year out (so July 2021).

Basically, getting passed over once has no effect on any of your ADSCs, they would still be in force.

There's also something about how long you have to have served as an officer to retire as an officer, not to sure what that is off hand, but that may be a factor in your decision.

That mostly answers my question. Time as an O is a non-factor. The AFI never specifically states if passed over the first time, the member could decide to separate/retire. Just the 2nd board that matters from putting the ball in the AF court.  Now I just gotta find out if the twice passed over will change when we go to a 5 year window. Even if for some odd reason I made it, pin-on would be in the last promotion increments, the same time I plan on being in SkillsBridge/terminal
 

thanks

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That mostly answers my question. Time as an O is a non-factor. The AFI never specifically states if passed over the first time, the member could decide to separate/retire. Just the 2nd board that matters from putting the ball in the AF court.  Now I just gotta find out if the twice passed over will change when we go to a 5 year window. Even if for some odd reason I made it, pin-on would be in the last promotion increments, the same time I plan on being in SkillsBridge/terminal
 
thanks


If you intend to retire at your ADSC expiration and have put in retirement paperwork, I don't think your package goes to the board since you have a retirement date set, so it's moot, you'll be retiring anyways.

There's also a host of other reasons to put in for retirement as soon as you know you're ready to get out. Takes you out of the 365 bucket (though you could 3 day opt), and it's harder to get tagged with a 179 deployment (6 months post deployment time before separation, though not impossible).

I don't think the 5 year window has been fleshed out yet, so who knows. But in your situation, I don't think it matters either way since your ADSC isn't too far off.
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On the topic of IDE...back when I was a Lt at my first assignment, everyone and their mother was pushing masters degrees as if it was a make or break box to check in my career. However, I had seen the writing on the wall and made the choice not to pursue it since the pendulum seemed to start heading the other way, and cramming masters work in during a deployment just wasn't my cup of tea. Luckily the timing worked out just fine for me. But now I'm being asked if I want to get put in for IDE, and I feel the same way. O4-O5+ manning is weak across the board, there's no way they're going to use it as a discriminator until manning gets too fat again and I know plenty of commanders who didn't check that box. Hell, the AFPC commander at SOS years ago pretty much told us straight up making O6 often comes down to whoever sticks it out long enough to not turn down a 365.  7 day opts shut the door on more O5-O6 promotions than records do.  Seems like those who are already groomed for the command track are the ones going anyways and it won't make that much of a difference. Anything I'm off the mark on for the near future?

Edited by fox two
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On the topic of IDE...back when I was a Lt at my first assignment, everyone and their mother was pushing masters degrees as if it was a make or break box to check in my career. However, I had seen the writing on the wall and made the choice not to pursue it since the pendulum seemed to start heading the other way, and cramming masters work in during a deployment just wasn't my cup of tea. Luckily the timing worked out just fine for me. But now I'm being asked if I want to get put in for IDE, and I feel the same way. O4-O5+ manning is weak across the board, there's no way they're going to use it as a discriminator until manning gets too fat again and I know plenty of commanders who didn't check that box. Hell, the AFPC commander at SOS years ago pretty much told us straight up making O6 often comes down to whoever sticks it out long enough to not turn down a 365.  7 day opts shut the door on more O5-O6 promotions than records do.  Seems like those who are already groomed for the command track are the ones going anyways and it won't make that much of a difference. Anything I'm off the mark on for the near future?


My take on PME in the current environment from the cheap seats...

With the removal of “off-the-board” IDE/SDE designees, the playing field has leveled a bit and statistically, the average person’s (average as in “generic” not record or performance) chances of being selected improved. At the same time, the retention issues led to the relaxation of some parts of the process (no prejudice for turning it down, trading slots, etc). Tons of people picked up off the alt lists as well. It became a buyer’s market.

COVID is obviously impacting the retention piece but I doubt AFPC has any idea of how that plays out long term. I think the inertia of the current situation will last at least another cycle or two.

I’m not promoting or deriding PME - like anything else it’s great for some folks (break in Ops tempo, some great locations if not at Maxwell), it also brings sacrifices (multiple moves, payback tours, ADSC). In general it offers more folks an opportunity to compete for PME if they want to, and therefore more folks will be in the mix for SQ/CC opportunities as well.

Promotions are facing a similar situation. I know a few folks who picked up O-6 on the most recent board without any traditional commands or res SDE. USAF is hurting for O-6s and that need will trickle down to the O-5 boards. Word on the street is that even the Colonels’ group is beginning to understand that folks’ personal preferences will need to be met (previously something they never gave an F about) in order to retain enough folks to man Pentagon desks.

The aperture has widened for certain career and promotion opportunities, but like anything else, it’s totally up to the individual to weigh cost/benefit.

FWIW I attended non-USAF IDE in res off the alternate board. Great year doing non-AF stuff.

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Wing King numbnuts who failed to give me my continuation paperwork. I received an email to pick up my PRF 3 weeks ago. I told his secretary I have been approved for retirement. Did you guys even look? 
Led me to look in the regulation. There is no mention of you not having to submit a PRF if you've been approved to retire. Usually, if you're passed over twice you don't have to submit one. I couldn't find that in the regulation either.


It's in the promotion board eligibility criteria on myPers (not in the AFI) set for each board on who's being considered for that board. Usually there are stipulations if you have a retirement/separation date set (usually at the time of the accountability date), and where that cut off is on if you'll be considered or not (basically, save the board some time if you've been approved to get out anyways).

A PRF gets submitted even after you've been passed over twice if you're otherwise eligible for the board, though normally it's just blank (i.e. senior rater is likely going to spend approximately zero time on it). Maybe that'll change with the bigger promotion window.
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At a base far far away. We had a passed over major in ACC. The major asked me if it was optional? The group and wing said yeah, it's optional for him. This was in 2018. I am pretty sure it was his third or fourth time. I didn't submit anything for him if my memory serves me correct.


The individual doesn't have to submit anything (I mean, by the letter of the AFI, you don't have to submit anything to you rater for PRF or OPR). Typically, once you've been passed over twice, you're no longer considered really promotable, so no one is going to spend time writing and coording on a PRF that "doesn't matter." So it used to just be a blank PRF with a "promote" to save wing/group/sq exec time.

Though recently (I want to say starting on the 2017 boards), guidance changed to where being APZ was supposed to be ignored for promotion consideration. But again, it's up to the senior rater on what they want to submit (not the individual going to the board)
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I'm wondering how long until OPR's will also have a static closeout date...And here I thought my #1 SNACKO strat was strong
https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2519199/air-force-announces-officer-stratification-guidance/fbclid/IwAR0ZMyPcI7mMlft8KsjEjCFBTRRUexCi6Lq5wSePizQpLYYHckL7AvUU7E8/

I hope that they do implement SCODs for officers.

I think it would cut down on the quarterly/semi annual rack and stacks that consume a lot of time and condense them down. But then again what do I know.
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12 hours ago, jrizzell said:

I'm wondering how long until OPR's will also have a static closeout date...And here I thought my #1 SNACKO strat was strong

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2519199/air-force-announces-officer-stratification-guidance/fbclid/IwAR0ZMyPcI7mMlft8KsjEjCFBTRRUexCi6Lq5wSePizQpLYYHckL7AvUU7E8/

Sounds like there are going to be a lot less strats overall since you have to pair functional with a rank strat. 

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