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Promotion and PRF Information


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Meanwhile, some CAF flying squadron commanders are now non O-5s ... no doubt qualified, likely with a line number to O-5, but it speaks to the straits we're entering. It used to be rare to see a Maj DO, then common... just saying it's setting a trendline

Wow.

I’m seeing the opposite in SOF. We brought in a bunch of O-5s and probably will have 5-7 non-command O-5s by the end of this year. And you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a major. There are something like 12-15 “ADOs” to make space for all of them. Granted most of the FGOs are 12S...most of the pilots are Palace Front/Chase as soon as their commitment ends.
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8 hours ago, MechGov said:


Wow.

I’m seeing the opposite in SOF. We brought in a bunch of O-5s and probably will have 5-7 non-command O-5s by the end of this year. And you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a major. There are something like 12-15 “ADOs” to make space for all of them. Granted most of the FGOs are 12S...most of the pilots are Palace Front/Chase as soon as their commitment ends.

I envy you guys, hopefully that means a lot of mentorship for the young guys.  The best flying mentors I had were sunset Majors / Lieutenant Colonels with zero f$$$ to give.  In our corner of AMC, there are about 15 Majors in the OG with most at Group / Wing jobs.  

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Wow.

I’m seeing the opposite in SOF. We brought in a bunch of O-5s and probably will have 5-7 non-command O-5s by the end of this year. And you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a major. There are something like 12-15 “ADOs” to make space for all of them. Granted most of the FGOs are 12S...most of the pilots are Palace Front/Chase as soon as their commitment ends.


This is not how the U-28s are looking. No O-5s in the sq except for DO and CC.


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4 hours ago, Skitzo said:

 


This is not how the U-28s are looking. No O-5s in the sq except for DO and CC.


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but rumor has it U-28 manning is the best of all the SOF MWSs and the 11S take-rate in general, while still abysmal, is “better” than the 11Ms... where have all the O-5s gone?

 

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but rumor has it U-28 manning is the best of all the SOF MWSs and the 11S take-rate in general, while still abysmal, is “better” than the 11Ms... where have all the O-5s gone?
 


Yes manning is quite healthy on paper. Of course the reports don’t show the full truth. Ie: folks on long term DNID/DNIF or the amount of folks who are duties at in positions they won’t deploy for the unit.

Ample O-5s on staff... and I don’t disagree with having only two O-5s in the squadron.

Most all pilots who are O-4s are bailing for the airlines, those that aren’t are generally “on the path” or HPOS.


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1 hour ago, Skitzo said:

 


Yes manning is quite healthy on paper. Of course the reports don’t show the full truth. Ie: folks on long term DNID/DNIF or the amount of folks who are duties at in positions they won’t deploy for the unit.

Ample O-5s on staff... and I don’t disagree with having only two O-5s in the squadron.

Most all pilots who are O-4s are bailing for the airlines, those that aren’t are generally “on the path” or HPOS.


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I wonder how many of those O-5s making us "over manned" took something like VLPAD.  I know one O-5 who retired for a whole day to make himself eligible for the VLPAD program just so he could PCS.

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Yes manning is quite healthy on paper. Of course the reports don’t show the full truth. Ie: folks on long term DNID/DNIF or the amount of folks who are duties at in positions they won’t deploy for the unit.

Ample O-5s on staff... and I don’t disagree with having only two O-5s in the squadron.

Most all pilots who are O-4s are bailing for the airlines, those that aren’t are generally “on the path” or HPOS.


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This.
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I wonder how many of those O-5s making us "over manned" took something like VLPAD.  I know one O-5 who retired for a whole day to make himself eligible for the VLPAD program just so he could PCS.


Not sure but I know that at least on staff that VLPAD does not count against the 65% rated staff requirement.

Where did the guy you mention PCS to?


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3 hours ago, Skitzo said:

 


Not sure but I know that at least on staff that VLPAD does not count against the 65% rated staff requirement.

Where did the guy you mention PCS to?


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From Dyess to Eglin

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  • 4 weeks later...

It's about that time again...

1.  Over in the bonus thread, there have been rumors about making the promotion zone a 5-year window and eliminating BPZ instead of "one and done".  Love to see any official guidance on this.  It's not that I doubt y'all...but I've seen nothing from my base or AFGSC about these changes.

2.  What are you guys doing with the two-line PRF?  My boss used the top line as basically his push line, leaving the bottom for the WG/CC push line (#x/xx I/APZ, #x/xxx majors, command, SDE, blah blah).  Is your leadership trying to stick with the "normal" top line of all your best strats, flying hours, combat time, awards, etc?  Or are they using it as a narrative and counting on the record to speak for itself?

3.  What are you guys being told for timelines?  Even between B-1 bases there's confusion.  Ellsworth guys don't have the PSDM (and I haven't seen it either), but at Dyess the DS has the timeline, with the 150 accountability date being 4 Oct and PRFs due to NAF back on the 14th, with an MLR happening in early Jan (8th and 9th, IIRC...but obviously I'm not at work)

4.  More opinion than fact-based...do the illustrious members of forum believe that the 2-line PRF, shift to competitive categories, and this rumored 5-year window will help or hurt the flying community's promotion rates as a whole?

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36 minutes ago, pawnman said:

It's about that time again...

1.  Over in the bonus thread, there have been rumors about making the promotion zone a 5-year window and eliminating BPZ instead of "one and done".  Love to see any official guidance on this.  It's not that I doubt y'all...but I've seen nothing from my base or AFGSC about these changes.

2.  What are you guys doing with the two-line PRF?  My boss used the top line as basically his push line, leaving the bottom for the WG/CC push line (#x/xx I/APZ, #x/xxx majors, command, SDE, blah blah).  Is your leadership trying to stick with the "normal" top line of all your best strats, flying hours, combat time, awards, etc?  Or are they using it as a narrative and counting on the record to speak for itself?

3.  What are you guys being told for timelines?  Even between B-1 bases there's confusion.  Ellsworth guys don't have the PSDM (and I haven't seen it either), but at Dyess the DS has the timeline, with the 150 accountability date being 4 Oct and PRFs due to NAF back on the 14th, with an MLR happening in early Jan (8th and 9th, IIRC...but obviously I'm not at work)

4.  More opinion than fact-based...do the illustrious members of forum believe that the 2-line PRF, shift to competitive categories, and this rumored 5-year window will help or hurt the flying community's promotion rates as a whole?

Help, and here is why:  The guidance on two line PRFs are that you can’t put bullets or data from what is already in your OPRs or TRs, meaning the board actually has to read your OPRs.  This helps those who hack the mission instead of planning the LGBTQ bake sale. This is of course assuming your OPRs are sound.  Further, competitive categories help since you’re solely being compared against your peers, apples to apples instead of comparing you to some FSS major who has already commanded.  From my understanding big Air Force decides cut lines for each category based on mission needs - can’t say whether promo rates go up for aviators or not but they definitely have a potential to.

As to the 5 year window? Won’t change much for your BPZ/HPOs, they’ll still get promoted early but maybe it will remove the stigma from APZ? And hopefully enable late bloomers.

 

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3 hours ago, pawnman said:

It's about that time again...

1.  Over in the bonus thread, there have been rumors about making the promotion zone a 5-year window and eliminating BPZ instead of "one and done".  Love to see any official guidance on this.  It's not that I doubt y'all...but I've seen nothing from my base or AFGSC about these changes.

 

Gen Ray was in Minot a couple of weeks back and talked about this. Seems like the four stars are all on board with it. 

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6 hours ago, pawnman said:

It's about that time again...

1.  Over in the bonus thread, there have been rumors about making the promotion zone a 5-year window and eliminating BPZ instead of "one and done".  Love to see any official guidance on this.  It's not that I doubt y'all...but I've seen nothing from my base or AFGSC about these changes.

2.  What are you guys doing with the two-line PRF?  My boss used the top line as basically his push line, leaving the bottom for the WG/CC push line (#x/xx I/APZ, #x/xxx majors, command, SDE, blah blah).  Is your leadership trying to stick with the "normal" top line of all your best strats, flying hours, combat time, awards, etc?  Or are they using it as a narrative and counting on the record to speak for itself?

3.  What are you guys being told for timelines?  Even between B-1 bases there's confusion.  Ellsworth guys don't have the PSDM (and I haven't seen it either), but at Dyess the DS has the timeline, with the 150 accountability date being 4 Oct and PRFs due to NAF back on the 14th, with an MLR happening in early Jan (8th and 9th, IIRC...but obviously I'm not at work)

4.  More opinion than fact-based...do the illustrious members of forum believe that the 2-line PRF, shift to competitive categories, and this rumored 5-year window will help or hurt the flying community's promotion rates as a whole?

The timeline is published by AFPC. No PSDM though so it’s not super helpful except to make everyone write their PRF. Luckily it’s only 2 lines so if some end up not on this board it’s not as much wasted time as it used to be.

As far as writing the 2 line PRF, no one really knows what right looks like yet, but you can’t use any info already in a PRF so it sounds like yours may get rewritten. What I’ve seen (which may or may not be normal) is top line a statement about why your experience makes you good to this point, and bottom line is your push line of strat or no strat and why you’ll be good in the future. Honestly though I’m sure everywhere is doing it slightly different based on their own interpretation.

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9 hours ago, dream big said:

As to the 5 year window? Won’t change much for your BPZ/HPOs, they’ll still get promoted early but maybe it will remove the stigma from APZ? And hopefully enable late bloomers.

Doing away with BPZ also does away with the limitations of only being able to promote a certain percentage of your shiny pennies "BPZ". I'd like to think it will iron out, but without the speed limit I have a feeling you will just see more HPOs promoted earlier, and using the extended promotion window to fix manning shortages once things settle down. I hope I'm wrong and there is less pressure to select our generals based off SOS performance.

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6 hours ago, Seriously said:

This will the be the next big problem to fix in the CAF... 

Sorry, I’m dense. Could you elaborate? No sarcasm intended at all, just completely tumbleweed re: this line of comments. 

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So I've got some different flavor questions regarding promotion to Lt Col on the Guard or Reserve side. I'm an 09 AD dude (10.5 years exactly right now) with my IPZ board in 2023 (yea, I'm tracking the new system about to roll out). Assuming results would drop mid/late 2023 and promotion increments would go through 2024.

  • Would being selected for O-5 on Active Duty just before or a few months after transitioning to the Guard/Reserve have any impact on promoting to O-5 after leaving Active Duty?
  • My guess is it would be way harder to get hired into an AGR slot as an O-5...would this also likely impact being hired into a TR or Technician position?
  • Depending on the risk here and where I'm standing in 2.5 years, tactically not finishing ACSC online to avoid O-5 on Active Duty could be a viable move (aware I may not have to with the new 5 look IPZ system).
  • How would being passed over once or twice for O-5 on AD in the current system impact being hired into the Guard/Reserve and promoting to O-5 eventually?
  • Is it correct that Guard/Reserve Majors automatically promote to O-5 after a certain time in rank as a Major (thought I remember seeing 6 or 7 years time in rank)? Is this only on the TR side, where as you need to roll into an O-5 billet to promote as an AGR? You have to serve as an O-5 for 3 years before retiring in that rank?

I know I'm kind of all over the place...thanks for any insight.

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23 hours ago, GoodSplash9 said:

 

  • Would being selected for O-5 on Active Duty just before or a few months after transitioning to the Guard/Reserve have any impact on promoting to O-5 after leaving Active Duty?
    • If you're selected for promotion to O-5 on Active Duty, prior to ANG transition, then you've been "federally recognized" and would promote to O-5 as soon as there is a control grade available in your unit. I'm not sure on the "getting promoted after you're already in the Guard." 
  • My guess is it would be way harder to get hired into an AGR slot as an O-5...would this also likely impact being hired into a TR or Technician position?
    • In my unit, yes. We have 15x O1-O4 and 5x O5, including CC/DO, so it's purely arithmetic. That said, not all unit UMDs are the same so YMMV. 
  • Depending on the risk here and where I'm standing in 2.5 years, tactically not finishing ACSC online to avoid O-5 on Active Duty could be a viable move (aware I may not have to with the new 5 look IPZ system).
    • In my Wing, ACSC is a requirement for promotion (ROPMA or PV) to O5 but it doesn't matter how/when you get it done as long as it's done before your package leaves the wing. 
  • How would being passed over once or twice for O-5 on AD in the current system impact being hired into the Guard/Reserve and promoting to O-5 eventually?
    • As far as I can tell not much. I know several folks passed over for promotion to O4 or O5 on Active Duty that have promoted in the Guard. 
  • Is it correct that Guard/Reserve Majors automatically promote to O-5 after a certain time in rank as a Major (thought I remember seeing 6 or 7 years time in rank)? Is this only on the TR side, where as you need to roll into an O-5 billet to promote as an AGR? You have to serve as an O-5 for 3 years before retiring in that rank?
    • Yes, that's actually the same for all officer ranks up to O5. ROPMA (Reserve Officer Promotion Management Act) For O4 it's 6 years TIG and then you promote the next year so you'd spend 7 years as an O4. The 6 years includes any time you spent as an O4 on Active Duty. For example, I joined the ANG with 1.5 years as an O4 and will ROPMA after 4.5 years in the ANG. There's some funkiness with the availability of a control grade after two years in the next higher rank but I haven't seen/heard that be a problem... Retirement rules/entitlements for an AGR are the same as Active Duty. You get your high 3; if you're a traditional or technician there are differences (major being you don't collect retirement until 62 and it's based on points).

ANGI 36-101 is the regulation that governs the AGR program. I've only been in the Guard for a little over 3 years (all as an AGR) so I'd be glad to assist when/where able. 

 

Edited by abmwaldo
Verbiage cleanup.
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On 12/1/2019 at 12:18 AM, GoodSplash9 said:

So I've got some different flavor questions regarding promotion to Lt Col on the Guard or Reserve side. I'm an 09 AD dude (10.5 years exactly right now) with my IPZ board in 2023 (yea, I'm tracking the new system about to roll out). Assuming results would drop mid/late 2023 and promotion increments would go through 2024.

  • Would being selected for O-5 on Active Duty just before or a few months after transitioning to the Guard/Reserve have any impact on promoting to O-5 after leaving Active Duty?
  • My guess is it would be way harder to get hired into an AGR slot as an O-5...would this also likely impact being hired into a TR or Technician position?
  • Depending on the risk here and where I'm standing in 2.5 years, tactically not finishing ACSC online to avoid O-5 on Active Duty could be a viable move (aware I may not have to with the new 5 look IPZ system).
  • How would being passed over once or twice for O-5 on AD in the current system impact being hired into the Guard/Reserve and promoting to O-5 eventually?
  • Is it correct that Guard/Reserve Majors automatically promote to O-5 after a certain time in rank as a Major (thought I remember seeing 6 or 7 years time in rank)? Is this only on the TR side, where as you need to roll into an O-5 billet to promote as an AGR? You have to serve as an O-5 for 3 years before retiring in that rank?

I know I'm kind of all over the place...thanks for any insight.

I spoke with the HIANG about moving over from AD to a Guard position earlier this year and as soon as I told them I was 2x passed over they told me, Not interested/not worth doing the waiver for me as there were other folks that weren't passed over that were also interested in joining the HIANG.

 

Two caveats to my experience; its Hawaii, and I'm not rated, so YMMV

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On 10/29/2019 at 3:59 AM, dream big said:

I envy you guys, hopefully that means a lot of mentorship for the young guys.  The best flying mentors I had were sunset Majors / Lieutenant Colonels with zero f$$$ to give.  In our corner of AMC, there are about 15 Majors in the OG with most at Group / Wing jobs.  

Nobody should have zero s to give.  If that's the case you need to exit service.  Let's end this narrative.  I get your point, and I hear this around the sq's, but as a community let's describe it in a more accurate manner, which fortunately is also more positive.  It will set the example to the younger guys in a more positive and accurate way.

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13 minutes ago, MTC said:

Nobody should have zero s to give.  If that's the case you need to exit service.  Let's end this narrative.  I get your point, and I hear this around the sq's, but as a community let's describe it in a more accurate manner, which fortunately is also more positive.  It will set the example to the younger guys in a more positive and accurate way.

BS. I have zero fucks to give for active duty asshattery, but plenty for the mission.  Choke yourself about this positive narrative BS; the world isn’t all roses. 

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12 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

BS. I have zero s to give for active duty asshattery, but plenty for the mission.  Choke yourself about this positive narrative BS; the world isn’t all roses. 

Exactly my point.  Not sure why so angry.

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