Jump to content

Promotion and PRF Information


Guest e3racing

Recommended Posts

This top/middle/bottom bucketing doesn’t help anything other than reducing the time it takes the OG and Wing to nitpick the numbers. How is it fair to the guys in a unit full of rock stars to get stratted as a bottom third guy? That’s even worse than it is now where they just get no strat so you can’t tell if they’re 25% or 75%....or getting an alternate strat (#1/69 mop holders).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would think ascension into the upper ranks (O-5 and higher) should incorporate multiple means of evaluation i.e. performance reports, pedigree (as in tactical proficiency, previous leadership positions held, WIC/Whitehouse Fellow/Olmsted etc.), references from previous commanders, and an interview between you and the board.  The current promotion system is another example of how the USAF hides behind a "paper bureaucracy" without really knowing who they are selecting.  I have seen it time and time again where a "meh" officer is selected over someone genuinely deserving.  I believe by opening up the playing field regarding the person's record, we would be able to de-escalate the significance of stratification whether it is an actual number stratification or top/middle/bottom ranking.    

I do realize that my suggestions would come at an administrative/logistical cost and the only solution I can think of is to not have promo boards by AFSC, but maybe conduct them at an even more specialized level and have them by parent MAJCOM.  The con with this idea is that we might run into a situation where there are less GO's who can cross disciplines. 

  

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've always thought we should move the Squadron Command billets down to senior O-3s/junior O-4s.  Army CGOs get real leadership opportunities early on (O-3 Company Command ~100 people).  Navy LCDRs can command a ship.  Why do we wait ~15 years before giving an officer Command (yeah I know there are exceptions depending on your AFSC)?

In theory, early Squadron Command:

1. Weeds out the d-bags early on

2. Gives the Senior Leaders better data for selecting HPOs

3. Provides more accurate/honest assessments to the stratification process and O-4/O-5 promotion boards

4. Provides O-4s/O-5s with credible/applicable leadership experience for Joint/Non-Joint staff tours

5. Provides practical/relevant/recent leadership experience for IDE learning

The O-5s can prove their worth on the staff (eliminating the CGO billets) and be pushed for SDE.  Post-SDE compete for Group+ Command.

Not a perfect solution but I think the pros outweigh the cons.  Otherwise, the OPR changes is just a shell game.

Edited by panchbarnes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, 14N Guy said:

I’ve heard this as well. Also heard 2-line PRFs as early as the March 19 (I think?) O-5 board and AFSC promo boards starting CY20.

So the PRFs we're already starting to submit up the chains will have to be substantially revised before they actually go to the boards?

Seriously, Air Force...your March board date means PRFs are due to wings in early December, which means they're due to groups in November...and you still haven't decided if we're using 2-line PRFs or if I can recycle the PRF from last year with minor tweaks?

Quote

I've always thought we should move the Squadron Command billets down to senior O-3s/junior O-4s.  Army CGOs get real leadership opportunities early on (O-3 Company Command ~100 people).  Navy LCDRs can command a ship.  Why do we wait ~15 years before giving an officer Command (yeah I know there are exceptions depending on your AFSC)?

Most AFSCs don't wait that long.  The LRS, Comm, and CONS SQ/CCs, as well as almost every MXG SQ/CC at my base are all at least one year group behind me ('06 and '07 dudes).  The flying community ends up doing it because even as a pilot, you end up commanding in your MWS - not likely to see a B-1 dude commanding an F-16 squadron.  That narrows the pool of available commands since there are a limited number of squadrons in your home MWS.  Meanwhile, a comm squadron is a comm squadron anywhere in the Air Force, so there's a greater chance to command one as an O-4.

If nothing else, AFSC-specific boards would at least allow flyers to compete with other flyers instead of sitting squadron commanders in the MXG and MSG.

Edited by pawnman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah great points, I knew SF, MXS, and others had earlier command opportunities.  Our command track is more aligned with the flyers, which means waiting until O-5 to get on that G-series order.  Then you'll have the underrepresented AFSCs like the 6X series, that struggle to find command billets.

Regardless of the AFSC and size of community command billets, I think you should still push down SQ/CCs to the O-3s and the O-4s.  Flyers are probably looking at early O-4s due to the lengthy training timeline and the follow-on ops tours.  Better to get that leadership (management?) experience early rather than later.  You'll definitely know where you stand earlier if you don't get picked up for command.

Thanks for reminding me about the PRF...can we get rid of the justification sheet while we are at it?

Edited by panchbarnes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As advertised. I am now on terminal leave and also got s job with a major airline. Stress level zero and never been so happy in my life.

Yes, it trumps UPT, PCS, Adv flying training ADSCs. The only thing that you need to check is the GI bill transfer of benefits eligibility. This is all from memory so please check me on this. If you decline continuation but separate at the mandatory 6 month date, you can keep your transfer benefits even if you still owe time on the ADSC. If however you try and move it up you MAY lose the transfer.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Duck said:

As advertised. I am now on terminal leave and also got s job with a major airline. Stress level zero and never been so happy in my life.

Yes, it trumps UPT, PCS, Adv flying training ADSCs. The only thing that you need to check is the GI bill transfer of benefits eligibility. This is all from memory so please check me on this. If you decline continuation but separate at the mandatory 6 month date, you can keep your transfer benefits even if you still owe time on the ADSC. If however you try and move it up you MAY lose the transfer.

Bragging 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, panchbarnes said:

I've always thought we should move the Squadron Command billets down to senior O-3s/junior O-4s.  Army CGOs get real leadership opportunities early on (O-3 Company Command ~100 people).  Navy LCDRs can command a ship.  Why do we wait ~15 years before giving an officer Command (yeah I know there are exceptions depending on your AFSC)?

In theory, early Squadron Command:

1. Weeds out the d-bags early on

2. Gives the Senior Leaders better data for selecting HPOs

3. Provides more accurate/honest assessments to the stratification process and O-4/O-5 promotion boards

4. Provides O-4s/O-5s with credible/applicable leadership experience for Joint/Non-Joint staff tours

5. Provides practical/relevant/recent leadership experience for IDE learning

The O-5s can prove their worth on the staff (eliminating the CGO billets) and be pushed for SDE.  Post-SDE compete for Group+ Command.

Not a perfect solution but I think the pros outweigh the cons.  Otherwise, the OPR changes is just a shell game.

The Army can do this because an Army O-3 will have like 2 Lts and a hundred enlisted under his command. 

Hard to do that when you have flying squadrons in the Air Force with a hundred officers (including FGOs) and like 2 Airmen. 

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Duck said:

As advertised. I am now on terminal leave and also got s job with a major airline. Stress level zero and never been so happy in my life.

Yes, it trumps UPT, PCS, Adv flying training ADSCs. The only thing that you need to check is the GI bill transfer of benefits eligibility. This is all from memory so please check me on this. If you decline continuation but separate at the mandatory 6 month date, you can keep your transfer benefits even if you still owe time on the ADSC. If however you try and move it up you MAY lose the transfer.

Thanks for the info and congrats on the new job!  That’s killer

Good point on the GI Bill. Haven’t transferred it yet but I’ll def check into it before I do. 

How far out did you get your application submitted so that you got the job while still on terminal?  What’s a reasonable time to expect from submission to interview/ offer?  Apologies I’m not asking this in the Airline thread but...I’m being lazy and killing two birds 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, MooseClub said:

Thanks for the info and congrats on the new job!  That’s killer

Good point on the GI Bill. Haven’t transferred it yet but I’ll def check into it before I do. 

How far out did you get your application submitted so that you got the job while still on terminal?  What’s a reasonable time to expect from submission to interview/ offer?  Apologies I’m not asking this in the Airline thread but...I’m being lazy and killing two birds 

Since I knew I had a 10% chance of being promoted, I had my applications to the big 5 complete well ahead of time, hit publish the night I got my notice of second passover and guessed my date of availability. AFPC established my DOS of 31 Dec 17, got my legacy invite on October 27th, CJO was Dec 7th, and started indoc Jan 23rd.

 

That being said, everyone's timeline is different. But if you haven't started the applications yet, they're a bitch. I submitted for my Drivers License history, FOIA'd my NDR (National Drivers Registry) history, ordered all of my official college transcripts, got friends to write Letters of Recommendations, had to do the consulting/resume/application review, etc. The process took ~3 months. The applications themselves are worse than an SF-86.

 

Edited by xaarman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, xaarman said:

Since I knew I had a 10% chance of being promoted, I had my applications to the big 5 complete well ahead of time, and hit publish the night I got my notice of second passover and guessed my date of availability. AFPC established my DOS of 31 Dec 17, got my legacy invite on October 27th, CJO was Dec 7th, and started indoc Jan 23rd.

 

That being said, everyone's timeline is different. But if you haven't started the applications yet, they're a bitch. I had to submit for my Drivers License history, FOIA my NDR (National Drivers Registry), order all of my official college transcripts, get friends to write Letters of Recommendations, do the consulting/resume/application review, etc. The applications are worse than an SF-86.

That’ll be my plan...ready to hit submit soon as I get the word

Good thing I’ll have time to get my Delta TS/SCI investigation, oh I mean application ready!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, pawnman said:

  Meanwhile, a comm squadron is a comm squadron anywhere in the Air Force, so there's a greater chance to command one as an O-4.

 

I agree, but want to point out this is changing as we move from a support function to mission defense and operations role.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/1/2018 at 6:13 AM, cragspider said:

Yes our numbers are thin. I know about half the guys from our YG that I know are already out. Most are in the Airlines already and ARC.  As for the O-5 board there where a few btz from my peers this past so we shall see. I know if I wasn’t a “late” rated pilot I’d be out in the airlines by now. It’s not that I’m not paitrotic but the miss management is so bad now I’d rather go we’re we are valued more than a number. QOL you name it once you have a family changes a lot of things. The next round of CC’s could be interesting for sure. 

You write like you went to state school on a short bus...and I went to a state school.

  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/3/2018 at 4:58 AM, Jetpilot said:

I would think ascension into the upper ranks (O-5 and higher) should incorporate multiple means of evaluation i.e. performance reports, pedigree (as in tactical proficiency, previous leadership positions held, WIC/Whitehouse Fellow/Olmsted etc.), references from previous commanders, and an interview between you and the board.  The current promotion system is another example of how the USAF hides behind a "paper bureaucracy" without really knowing who they are selecting.  I have seen it time and time again where a "meh" officer is selected over someone genuinely deserving.  I believe by opening up the playing field regarding the person's record, we would be able to de-escalate the significance of stratification whether it is an actual number stratification or top/middle/bottom ranking.    

I do realize that my suggestions would come at an administrative/logistical cost and the only solution I can think of is to not have promo boards by AFSC, but maybe conduct them at an even more specialized level and have them by parent MAJCOM.  The con with this idea is that we might run into a situation where there are less GO's who can cross disciplines. 

  

Job title weighed with performance in that job title, with a limit to the "score" based on the job... kind of like the Olympics, asst chief of squadron safety - highest possible score of 40 out of 100, Squadron commander highest possible score of 90, etc... when I look at people's record, strats were always secondary to job title (especially in a squadron of 50+ peers).  Chief of Stan/Eval in a Sqd of 100 pilots, you probably rock... same yr group, everything else equal - asst secretary of mobility but you are CGO of the year - you probably don't rock as much.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Fuzz said:

I know an SFS O-5 that's on their 2nd SQ/CC tour (one before IDE/Staff). 

 

On 11/3/2018 at 4:04 PM, pawnman said:

Do you think that will force your commanders to be chosen later/higher ranking?

Like Fuzz says we've got a number of 2-time commanders, and a lot of O-4 Sq/CC's now.  Per AFPC we're all in for command, no declinations, I think that's more a product of 2 AFSC RIFs and the Hunger Games in '14-'16.

It's hard to say if we're going to go older since the domain is so new.  We're shoe-horning it into what the AF knows (Flt-Sq-Grp) but I don't think it's going to last.  It's not how we operate (more team/capes focused).  This is an area other service models *might* make more sense?  Some of our older commanders struggle with the compliance vs. ops mindset.

If they'd just split the fucking AFSC we'd have a much easier time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 17D_guy said:

 

Like Fuzz says we've got a number of 2-time commanders, and a lot of O-4 Sq/CC's now.  Per AFPC we're all in for command, no declinations, I think that's more a product of 2 AFSC RIFs and the Hunger Games in '14-'16.

It's hard to say if we're going to go older since the domain is so new.  We're shoe-horning it into what the AF knows (Flt-Sq-Grp) but I don't think it's going to last.  It's not how we operate (more team/capes focused).  This is an area other service models *might* make more sense?  Some of our older commanders struggle with the compliance vs. ops mindset.

If they'd just split the fucking AFSC we'd have a much easier time.

This is why splitting AFSCs on promotion boards would be helpful. It prevents flyers from having to compete with guys who are sitting or graduated squadron commanders in the same year group.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, pawnman said:

This is why splitting AFSCs on promotion boards would be helpful. It prevents flyers from having to compete with guys who are sitting or graduated squadron commanders in the same year group.

No doubt, I was more along the lines of splitting those doing cyber ops from you normal Comm sq (IT) dude.  One's ops, ones compliance...but we're 1 AFSC because it's easier for AFPC to manage use that way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • M2 locked this topic
  • M2 unlocked this topic

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...