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5 minutes ago, brabus said:

Since you seem fairly hung up on education, let me educate you....

See the difference? 

He is not going to listen or be educated, and he doesn't see the difference.  You're wasting your time bro.  He is one of those people convinced he understands a perspective you don't, and can't comprehend a world outside his assumptions.  

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4 minutes ago, pawnman said:

So you're willing to let the mission fail to "protect your people"?

This is why non-flyers almost never get command of a wing.  Because the flyers know it isn't acceptable to tell POTUS "Sorry sir, we won't be launching those strikes today...Capt Snuffy has a class after work, and Maj Donut has to pick up his kid from the CDC by 5pm".

My point is do you want to break your people or break the mission? Without people you can't hack the mission. Run your E's into the ground and when the mission fails you will be the scapegoat. You can fly that training mission another day if the mission is scraped stateside for manning.

We have been doing more with less since 9/11. At some point your people or aircraft will give out. 

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Just now, hatedont said:

My point is do you want to break your people or break the mission? Without people you can't hack the mission. Run your E's into the ground and when the mission fails you will be the scapegoat. You can fly that training mission another day if the mission is scraped stateside for manning.

We have been doing more with less since 9/11. At some point your people or aircraft will give out. 

Working people an extra hour isn't "running them into the ground".  

You should spend some time on the flight line.  The MX folks have some choice words for your office-dwelling 9-to-5ers.

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My point is do you want to break your people or break the mission? Without people you can't hack the mission. Run your E's into the ground and when the mission fails you will be the scapegoat. You can fly that training mission another day if the mission is scraped stateside for manning.
We have been doing more with less since 9/11. At some point your people or aircraft will give out. 

I don't know what they've told you, but they don't work that hard on the other side of the base.

I've been waiting at the MPFs door waiting for them to unlock it while watching all 5 of them surf Facebook, meanwhile I need my CAC to work so I can actually do my job. Once the door was opened only 2 of the 5 started helping people.

Support has completely forgotten that they aren't the mission. I don't need them to be the tip of the spear, but I need them to do their jobs.

Holy thread derail.


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2 hours ago, pawnman said:

Working people an extra hour isn't "running them into the ground".  

You should spend some time on the flight line.  The MX folks have some choice words for your office-dwelling 9-to-5ers.

Choice words...don't you mean they are using their feet to leave in order to get caught up with the 9 to 5ers education wise? If maintenance was so great and treated their people well everyone would be staying in. My pops warned me before I enlisted that maintenance is a job you don't want. 

In Korea, I worked a 6 on, 3 off schedule and my supervisors allowed us to still go to school. You just had to ask and she would let you leave work for school if the mission allowed. We always had enough people so it was never an issue.

I totally understand your perspective regarding maintenance. I had to sit in on a court martial for a maintainer. That kid was not being taken care of in my opinion. I told the other officers he shouldn't be court martialed and gave my reasoning why. Well, I was a man alone. After they sentenced the maintainer, he addressed us with a letter. Everyone from the court martial told me I was right about the kid after the fact. Its too late now because you can't unscrew his life now. Officers are far more lenient on court martials than enlisted. My peers could not relate to the kid which led to their decision.

When your AF defense team pulls out power point slides, just plead guilty. If that maintainer had a civilian lawyer, he would have walked free. 

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13 minutes ago, Duck said:


I don't know what they've told you, but they don't work that hard on the other side of the base.

I've been waiting at the MPFs door waiting for them to unlock it while watching all 5 of them surf Facebook, meanwhile I need my CAC to work so I can actually do my job. Once the door was opened only 2 of the 5 started helping people.

Support has completely forgotten that they aren't the mission. I don't need them to be the tip of the spear, but I need them to do their jobs.

Holy thread derail.


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We were talking about the mx troops Duck.

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1 hour ago, hatedont said:

We were talking about the mx troops Duck.

No, we're talking about how you refuse to make your guys work 1 minute past 1630, but how it's acceptable for the entire OG, MXG, SFS, and Fire Department to work 24/7.

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words


Hatedont/no2bonus/cantfly,
While being twice banned seems to have convinced you to try and play nice with others, your posts are still entirely nonsensical. Maybe have someone review what you write before you hit reply.


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3 minutes ago, nunya said:

Chang just created a new persona.

 

1pwqp2.jpg

My theory is that chang, being an A1 "in the know" kinda guy, saw the most recent promotion board results and he didn't get something he thought he would.

The timing of his "I now hate the Air Force" works out in that the list would have floated around the appropriate A1 shops prior to release so that some ducks could be arranged regarding HPO schools/assignments, etc.

While I have no doubt his pain is/was real to him, Big Blue don't care.  Took that kick in the junk for him to realize that.

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3 hours ago, gearpig said:

 

hatedont,

Having been on this forum for many, many years, here's how this usually goes: People sign up usually because they have something to contribute. First posts are typically very agreeable, well thought out, and well liked. Then, some people fall in love with the illusion that their opinion matters and the posts get longer. Then those posts get critiqued. They then feel they must defend every word with even more walls of text. The cycle continues leaving blood in the water. The sharks arrive and the people who think they're going to teach the forum a thing or two get decimated.

Four consecutive long posts responding to critiques in a single topic... you're on track to be just another in a long line of people who have made the same mistakes.

This is great advice. The only thing I would add is that after certain admins start not agreeing with you, you will get your account "accidentally" deleted or they will "accidentally" lock you out of your account. 

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1 hour ago, hatedont said:

in Korea, I worked a 6 on, 3 off schedule and my supervisors allowed us to still go to school. You just had to ask and she would let you leave work

Sooooo coddled. Well, here it is folks - the reason we can't get shit done with some people. 

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Absolutely: Technical v. Leadership track. The schism won't happen till your major's board much like one is selected for school.  Up until then, primary duty as a rated officer is progression in the jet.  Those selected for the leadership track can be "groomed" as necessary.  Technical track doesn't need to just fly, they can be the ADOs, DOs, WICans, the crusty experienced instructors.  They'll perhaps top out at Lt Col.  

There will inevitably be some issues with this..for instance I can say with certainty much less than 15-20% of us probable "selects" would even want to be on a leadership track.  But is it much different than how we do things now in terms of "leadership"?  Formalizing a technical track would mitigate some of the retention issues and keep the experience in the squadrons so we aren't sending young and inexperienced guys out on night one...IMHO

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1 hour ago, pawnman said:

No, we're talking about how you refuse to make your guys work 1 minute past 1630, but how it's acceptable for the entire OG, MXG, SFS, and Fire Department to work 24/7.

The clinic isn't open 24/7. If you hurt yourself on the weekend or at night, you have to go to the ER.

I got a bulge in my arm after a TDY. Flight medicine told me they didn't have any appointments for 2-3 days. I went and saw my dermatologist because I was concerned. He used to be a flight doctor and told me the bulge could have killed me if it was infected. He cut out the bulge and left a minor hole in my arm. 

Not sure what base you're at but I guess ATC should be there 24/7 too although no planes are in the pattern right? As a SOF, my OG was out by 1630-1700. Call me at the house if you need anything he would say. So you know more than the OG/CC is what you are saying? Somedays he stayed late, but he wasn't there 24/7. You just don't get it.

1 hour ago, ViperStud said:

Sooooo coddled. Well, here it is folks - the reason we can't get shit done with some people. 

I guess you want airmen just to drink and work in Korea only? Dont better yourselves. Based  on your leadership,  I would never have made it to AFROTC. I would hate to be under your"work through lunch leadership." By the time I get my meal from the chow hall and return to work, 20 mins have probably elapsed. Then I have to type and eat. Are you really being more productive in that hour? In mx you can't eat and work on fixing a jet at the same time. In Korea, airmen in intel received BAS. Mission too important to leave for lunch.

I don't take lunches. But you need time during the day to take a break and get out of the building. I don't expect people to mimic what I do. I don't hold everyone to my standards because they aren't my rank and I don't have a wife or kids. 

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Dude you see everything in black and white. Either kick everyone out at 1630 with piles of work left to do or...god forbid some leaders demand mission priorotization over hacking the clock, they're burning their airmen out. No area in-between huh?

I've seen officers spending time after work on PME, degrees, fitness, etc. Teaching your troops time Mgmt skills rather than letting the let orders/vouchers/etc pile up - that's a skill that'll pay dividends the rest of their lives. Letting them off the hook and teaching them that group PT is more important than the mission is what makes one a failure of leadership. I'd be curious to see the raw amount of Facebook/amazon logins as the mission work piles up. I bet you'd make excuses for that, too.  

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3 hours ago, hatedont said:

Not sure what base you're at but I guess ATC should be there 24/7 too although no planes are in the pattern right?

You obviously have never been to an AMC base because ATC works 24/7 as do many shops in the OG as well since we are launching missions from home station at all hours of the day.

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4 hours ago, hatedont said:

The clinic isn't open 24/7. If you hurt yourself on the weekend or at night, you have to go to the ER.

I got a bulge in my arm after a TDY. Flight medicine told me they didn't have any appointments for 2-3 days. I went and saw my dermatologist because I was concerned. He used to be a flight doctor and told me the bulge could have killed me if it was infected. He cut out the bulge and left a minor hole in my arm. 

Not sure what base you're at but I guess ATC should be there 24/7 too although no planes are in the pattern right? As a SOF, my OG was out by 1630-1700. Call me at the house if you need anything he would say. So you know more than the OG/CC is what you are saying? Somedays he stayed late, but he wasn't there 24/7. You just don't get it.

I guess you want airmen just to drink and work in Korea only? Dont better yourselves. Based  on your leadership,  I would never have made it to AFROTC. I would hate to be under your"work through lunch leadership." By the time I get my meal from the chow hall and return to work, 20 mins have probably elapsed. Then I have to type and eat. Are you really being more productive in that hour? In mx you can't eat and work on fixing a jet at the same time. In Korea, airmen in intel received BAS. Mission too important to leave for lunch.

I don't take lunches. But you need time during the day to take a break and get out of the building. I don't expect people to mimic what I do. I don't hold everyone to my standards because they aren't my rank and I don't have a wife or kids. 

We've got C-130s.  ATC is there 24/7.  So is WX and AMOPS.  AFE is there to support the flying schedule...if the last line lands at 0100, then there's AFE troops there until 0200.  If the first line steps at 0400, then AFE is there at 0400.

I'm just curious how we have two entire groups, and multiple squadrons within the MSG, that can make this happen, but finance and MPF are "too precious" to work a weekend or stay late a couple nights a week until they get caught up.

Believe me, I know about medical.  They are the worst offenders with this kind of thing.

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