Promotion and PRF Information

[Liquid]

Nice. Suppose you mean pilots, the root of all of the DoD's problems.

Nope, I mean those childish and sexist idiots who use the number 69 and word games to make sex jokes at work. It shouldn't matter in this discussion but I am a pilot. No high horse syndrome, I've been saying this about the inappropriate sexist culture for my entire career.

[HossHarris]

Warrior monks.

That'll work out great.

[Liquid]

Trolls,

99.69% of BODN members will not be politically correct here or act like we do at work, where everything we do or say has to be measured against the potential response of some shoeclerk MEO bitch that gets her feelings hurt twice a day and thrice on her period. We say "so to speak" as a jab at said shoeclerk MEO bitch that we all hate; we like to say 69 (or 6 to 9) because it reminds us of how awesome it is to 69 a chick; we sing songs about killing our enemies because we are proud make our country safer and killing those haji mother f'ers is usually the most efficient way to accomplish that; we tell stories about our drunken escapades because there are (many) times we get drunk and live to tell about it the next day; we talk about whores because at some point in our career we have seen our bros hooking up with said whores and then seen the look on their faces after their visit to the flight doc where their dick received the rotor rooter treatment; we sing songs about certain individuals such as Mr. O'Leary, Ms. Adeline Schmitt, the S & M man, our hooker moms, pimp fathers, whore sisters, bros, sons, etc. because we choose to. It's a personal choice. You, nor the CSAF, nor anyone else can force us to think a certain way. The one thing you and everyone else at the Puzzle can do is lead by example. Stop by telling us how we are demented, rapist, immoral individuals, and threatening us with "you will be weeded out." We are not the bad guys, and we are all on the same team, remember? The good 'ole US of A.

Most of us will choose not to have our testicles surgically removed somewhere between O-4 and O-5. We will keep our warrior ethos whether you like it or not and we will talk about the aformentioned things whether you like it or not (and these two things are not necessarily related). I hope there are enough of us left in the officer corps that can and will make this Air Force a warrior minded, mission focused entity. If we can't, we will at least try. If we cannot because the machine is too big (sts), then we will move on to a civilian life where we can succeed in the private sector doing something else (hopefully related to flying).

As a previous poster eluded to, morality at the personal level can never be instituted wholesale. It is a personal decision and that's where it starts and ends. I have learned this as an O-3 Flt/CC in dealing with my subordinates, hopefully you too will learn this someday. I don't know or care who you are, who you work for, or why you have decided to troll on BODN. If someone at the Puzzle put you up to this to get a pulse on the the lower officer echelons, I suggest you actually listen to the heartbeat and stop trying to insert a heart pacemaker.

Until the next time, here's to Meg...

Not saying anything about killing songs, drinking stories or warrior ethos. Just the sex jokes and rape songs at work. Don't care what you post here, think, or do off duty (obviously unless you are breaking the law/UCMJ). The AF will change how you act at work. No more nudge, nudge, wink, wink, it's ok because it is tradition and makes us better fighters. I'm more warrior minded than you think. I just know you don't need this stupid sexist shit to be a warrior.

[Liquid]

Does anyone know who these guys actually are? PM me.

No doubt I will be outed soon. I say these things in public all the time so it shouldn't be too hard to figure it out. I do like having the ability to post without officially representing the AF. That will change when my rank and name are associated with my observations and opinions.

[joe1234]

I will admit using the number 69 for every. fucking. thing. is stupid, simply because so many people do it and it's not even that clever. Sexist jokes at work aren't funny, but this message board doesn't constitute work. Making value judgments based on Internet posts is rather shortsighted. And, lastly, just because someone gives you shit and you don't like it, doesn't make someone a troll. A lot of guys like to pretend that they can both dish it out and take it, but get super butthurt and when someone gives them shit back. Case in point, we probably have internet detectives trying to figure out Liquid's identity because they got sand in their vagina due to a disagreement.

Despite all of this, I have one message to you, Liquid and GC: attitude reflects leadership. I'm sure you've seen cases where an organization with the same exact personnel gets turned around because of a change in leadership. You have a nasty habit of blaming the worker bees for their attitudes, but a poor track record of holding leaders accountable for their mediocrity. Don't you find it just a little bit odd how we have our "best and brightest" 2 BTZ cream of the crop PME superstar consistent award winning multiple #1 stratted leaders running the show across the board, yet all of these problems still somehow CONSTANTLY manifest themselves all over the place?

Let me put it this in another way: if a few guys are jaded and lack motivation, you have worker problems. If a ton of guys are pissed off and jaded, and you keep running into the same issues across the board, you have a fucking leadership problem. But I guess it's easier to bitch at the worker bees than ruffle feathers at the bullshit feel good self-serving country club of AF senior leadership.

[Vprdrvr69]

Despite all of this, I have one message to you, Liquid and GC: attitude reflects leadership. I'm sure you've seen cases where an organization with the same exact personnel gets turned around because of a change in leadership. You have a nasty habit of blaming the worker bees for their attitudes, but a poor track record of holding leaders accountable for their mediocrity. Don't you find it just a little bit odd how we have our "best and brightest" 2 BTZ cream of the crop PME superstar consistent award winning multiple #1 stratted leaders running the show across the board, yet all of these problems still somehow CONSTANTLY manifest themselves all over the place?

Let me put it this in another way: if a few guys are jaded and lack motivation, you have worker problems. If a ton of guys are pissed off and jaded, and you keep running into the same issues across the board, you have a ######ing leadership problem. But I guess it's easier to bitch at the worker bees than ruffle feathers at the bullshit feel good self-serving country club of AF senior leadership.

Shack!

You know what ADSC stands for right? Palace Chase is a force management tool used when supply exceeds demand. Not just to allow the disgruntled and under performers the opportunity to get out early.

Liquid,

We all know what ADSC stands for. The regulations for ADSC's cleverly keep growing to keep us all bound as indentured servants. We are an all-volunteer force partly because the regulations keep changing creatively trapping folks well beyond a reasonable service period. We keep entertaining and implementing force management measures (RIFs); why have we been so restrictive on Palace Chase for at least the last 5 years? Why do falsify and lie about the VSP? Guys here mention this because of the hints at a RIF next year. I thought that you and GC keep telling us how much folks are free to leave, and how Big Blue needs this to happen to clear out the glut of pilots. Help us help you. You'd be surprised how many folks are ready to explore new frontiers outside of the service.

You say that Palace Chase would just be an easy way for the "disgruntled and under-performers" to leave. You sir are so mistaken. When the indentured servitude contracts expire, I am afraid that those under-performers are the ones that remain en mass. Not all, but the majority of your super-stars and real leaders will move along quietly. You are correct in that some of those do fit the disgruntled category. I think the percentage of those that are disgruntled is rapidly increasing in recent years. Maybe I am wrong about folks leaving in droves in the near future. Time will tell.

Many folks that I know, and myself included, are badly needed in the communities we are in. I am not bragging or boasting, just pointing out that some of your disgruntled leaders are of extreme value and take their jobs or positions of leadership very seriously. I do. We work our hearts out to hack the mission and take care of those below us. We check the boxes because if we decide to stay, we want to be in a position to excel and fix problems that we bitch about here. We learned that on BODN from old crusty dudes and their invaluable wisdom. Almost all of us are certain that we will leave at the first opportunity. Some of us are overtly disgruntled and express this, most are not. I feel that General Welsh understands this but I am also afraid the problem is bigger than anyone can fix in the short term. He has quite a bit on his plate which is the result of cumulative leadership failures before him as well as on the civilian front. Leaders that do not recognize the "bleeding talent" problem will be unable to fix it, period dot. Kind of like an alcoholic that fails to recognize his addiction.

I don't have a personal vested interest in whether or not folks stay or leave. Nor do I really care if the airlines start hiring (even though my personal research indicates the hiring will be more notable than any time since 2001). Unlike in the 90's, the longer ADSCs means that many folks will have more powerful resumes for careers well beyond those offered flying airplanes. Folks in this category have been exposed to combat for a decade, and have leadership experiences that will transcend historical data for separating pilots. My resume will be much stronger than if I had left at 8 years of aviation service. As a senior leader, I hope you will sincerely reflect upon the culture change and state of morale within your up-and-coming AF leaders. We will do fine on the outside, I promise. We will excel where ever we decide to go. If our country calls, we will stand by her side and help win our next war. But, we will not lay down and continue to rot in a culture we find ourselves disassociated with, or in a service we find ourselves at odds with. Believe it or not, the USAF really does need many of us. Nothing personal in these opinions. The USAF is a machine without emotion; we will take GC's thank you and move on to new opportunities.

Internet blogs are a great place to bitch and attack folks you don't agree with. You've been attacked like many others. Like many others have commented, I am very glad to see senior leaders jump in here and expose the inner-workings of the AF and expose current AF beliefs. Your inputs here, while contested and attacked, are welcome and appreciated. A lot of what you say is valid although it may hurt some feelings here or there. Whether or not many of us stick around is to be determined, but I care about my country and the service that better focus on defending her when called upon. Even when I leave, I would love to know that eventually the AF unscrews itself and the Big Blue ship is righted. Please be humble enough to weed through the information posted here and pull out the nuggets of value that can help fix OUR problems in the USAF. Beer is empty and post is done.

[Jaded]

Your post is invalidated by your username. Pervert.

[Vprdrvr69]

Thanks for pointing that out. I totally forgot that I had a 69 in there. Guess I better change it. It's kind of funny that things like (sts), or 69, and Box or Head were part of my military indoctrination. I never used any of those prior to the military, and now those traditions are engrained into my mind. I sincerely don't know how to get rid of them without the full frontal o-6 lobotomy. The traditions and culture I was expected to adopt and that I have fully, is now not allowed. Ahhhh, you can't make this shit up!

[ThreeHoler]

I think most of my frustration stems from our collective propensity as a service to do the same thing over and over, yet we expect different results. That, gentlemen, is the definition of insanity.

For the youngins, pick up a copy of "Over the Hump" and "Overlord" if you want to see what I'm talking about. For us old farts, actually read the books if you haven't.

As personally disappointed as I am in the senior leadership I've seen over the last few years, I still desire to stay in and take care of my guys and gals. Maybe I am naive to think I can make lasting positive change on a broad scale, but I have done it before at the wing level and I will continue to do it at whatever level I work today and in the future.

[Muscle2002]

Sexist call signs are wrong. Balls, Fingers, Crab, Porno, Nasty, Lick, Woody, Hung, Banger, etc, etc. Funny in the 8th grade. Embarrassing and unacceptable in a professional fighting force.

Fine, however, your original statement listed call signs along with other inappropriate items/actions without making any qualifications. The implication was that all call signs are inappropriate--that's simply not true.

[Chuck17]

Sexist call signs are wrong. Balls, Fingers, Crab, Porno, Nasty, Lick, Woody, Hung, Banger, etc, etc. Funny in the 8th grade. Embarrassing and unacceptable in a professional fighting force.

Copy all, everyone has to have something to keep them up at night I guess...

Like I said, I never understood the obsession with this kinda stuff. We've branched off from the focus on sexual assault to a focus on white whales. Since we have to toe the Big Blue line and show that we are doing SOMETHING....

I got it, message received. Move along folks, nothing to see here.

Chuck

Edited July 6, 2013 by Chuck17

[herkbum]

No doubt I will be outed soon. I say these things in public all the time so it shouldn't be too hard to figure it out. I do like having the ability to post without officially representing the AF. That will change when my rank and name are associated with my observations and opinions.

Anyone can come on here and claim to be senior leadership. Most guys on BODN knows the old hats' backgrounds, therefore they know who to trust and not to trust. Folks in the past have come on here claiming to be someone similar to you and they were outed to be trolls. Everyone is cautious because some of the statements you made we're trollish and you have given no background other than you work in Pentagon and today that you are at least a pilot. If you are who you claim to be, awesome, welcome to BODN and continue to engage in conversations. If not, hit the road. Same goes for GC.

Everyone else, keep it civil and respectful. This forum is a great source of info and also provides a place to vent our frustrations. Let's keep it the way Rich wanted!

[F16Deuce]

Sexist call signs are wrong. Balls, Fingers, Crab, Porno, Nasty, Lick, Woody, Hung, Banger, etc, etc. Funny in the 8th grade. Embarrassing and unacceptable in a professional fighting force.

Noted.

[Danny Noonin]

You guys and your stupid ass infatuation with the number 69. F*ing retards.

You call others "retards" while lecturing to others about the offensive, juvenile nature of 69?

Interesting.

[Vetter]

No doubt I will be outed soon. I say these things in public all the time so it shouldn't be too hard to figure it out. I do like having the ability to post without officially representing the AF. That will change when my rank and name are associated with my observations and opinions.

Got snagged by the troll. I am looking forward to you coming out of the closet.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Vetter

[Wing Sweep]

PRF timelines in CY '14 for the '05 year group? Anyone? Anyone?

Not saying anything about killing songs, drinking stories or warrior ethos. Just the sex jokes and rape songs at work. Don't care what you post here, think, or do off duty (obviously unless you are breaking the law/UCMJ). The AF will change how you act at work. No more nudge, nudge, wink, wink, it's ok because it is tradition and makes us better fighters. I'm more warrior minded than you think. I just know you don't need this stupid sexist shit to be a warrior.

1. I agree 100% we don't need stupid sexist shit to be a warrior. I'm just not sure which stupid sexist shit you are referring to. You speak very well in generalities, but I have yet to hear specifics.

2. The AF has not changed how I nor 99.69% of AF officers act at work because we DO NOT and HAVE NOT condoned or taken part in sex jokes or rape songs in the work place...EVER. Singing and joking that some might deem inappropriate in the workplace, if and when it happens, is done on people's personal time once the J-O-B is done. Again I say, and as you also point out, what we do outside of work (without breaking the law) is our business.

3. It seems the upper officer echelons think there is a sexually perverse (i.e. sexist) mindset across our officer corps that has led to a serious wave of sexual assault and/or mistreatment of women in the workplace. Does sexual misconduct happen in the workplace? Yes, but very rarely! Do I consider this part of the culture? ABSOLUTELY NOT. In fact, I would say women have more opportunities and equality now than ever before in the DoD! It certainly doesn't help that there are high profile cases in the news, displaying certain AF officers as the poster boys of all that is sexually deviant. But I would argue that, by and large, the vast majority of us comply with, accept, and promote equality and professionalism in the workplace.

4. Sexual assualt is not a disease that has all of a sudden infected us wholesale, but rather a few idiots have been highlighted for their very poorly timed improper sexual actions. Political points are now being won in the legislative branch of the Federal government and all DoD members are getting their diapers changed with a new scent of Gold Bond so we can "rid ourselves" of "sexist thinking."

BONUS ... For Pete's sake, the whole .69 thing...take a joke and smile man. If you shut me off at .69, then I would say you have bigger issues to deal with. Just smile, it will make you feel better.

Mods- Sorry for the thread jack. I believe this would be more appropriate in the SARC thread.

Edited July 6, 2013 by g2s

[pawnman]

You know what ADSC stands for right? Palace Chase is a force management tool used when supply exceeds demand. Not just to allow the disgruntled and under performers the opportunity to get out early.

So we have a huge glut of pilots, which is why we haven't changed the bonus, but the pilots are too valuable to let them Palace Chase?

Please, run me through that logic.

[Liquid]

So we have a huge glut of pilots, which is why we haven't changed the bonus, but the pilots are too valuable to let them Palace Chase?

Please, run me through that logic.

41 pages of good discussion on the ACP topic. Even if we did have a too many pilots, why would we regularly approve early release from ADSC? Serve your time, payback your training, then do whatever you want. Just don't complain when the request for a ADSC waiver (Palace Chase) is disapproved.

[Merged]

Liquid, GC, or anyone else in the know...

I have heard some discussion of IDE/SDE in-residence being almost cut all together for non-selects (ie: candidates) this year and additionally for the foreseeable future. Does this check with what others have been hearing? As a CAF guy, if big blue isn't providing advancement opportunities how are they going to expect pilots to stick around past their UPT commitment regardless of the bonus $ being offered? No school usually takes you out of the running for advancement opportunities therefore making you prime for the less than ideal 365's. What have others been hearing across all of the MAJCOM's? Is it true that non-select is going to mean no school in residence?

[pawnman]

41 pages of good discussion on the ACP topic. Even if we did have a too many pilots, why would we regularly approve early release from ADSC? Serve your time, payback your training, then do whatever you want. Just don't complain when the request for a ADSC waiver (Palace Chase) is disapproved.

Got it. We can afford to RIF people from the force entirely, but we can't afford to send them to the guard and reserve.

More insight from the AFPC machine.

[Danny Noonin]

Even if we did have a too many pilots, why would we regularly approve early release from ADSC?

Seriously? Because if there are too many pilots on AD and you let some go to the ARC where there are not too many pilots then there would no longer be too many pilots on AD yet you'd still get payback on the training and have the experienced services of those pilots available in both an operational and strategic reserve capacity. You do know that ARC guys are still on the team, right?

Plus, if you believe Chang there is talk of a RIF otherwise known as non-voluntary separation. Always a winner for morale of the force.

Plus, palace chase is free.

If Chang is right about this "glut" of pilots, then it's a win-win.

Good think we are all so educated with advanced degrees from ERAU. It creates great "thinkers" and problem solvers.

[General Chang]

Liquid, GC, or anyone else in the know...

I have heard some discussion of IDE/SDE in-residence being almost cut all together for non-selects (ie: candidates) this year and additionally for the foreseeable future. Does this check with what others have been hearing? As a CAF guy, if big blue isn't providing advancement opportunities how are they going to expect pilots to stick around past their UPT commitment regardless of the bonus $ being offered? No school usually takes you out of the running for advancement opportunities therefore making you prime for the less than ideal 365's. What have others been hearing across all of the MAJCOM's? Is it true that non-select is going to mean no school in residence?

Merged,

Not my program, but I've been hearing the same thing through the grapevine; a token "1 candidate from CAF, 1 candidate from MAF, 1 candidate from cyber, yadda yadda..."

If you look at the numbers of school designees from 2011 (2012-2013 school year) vs. 2012 (2013-2014 school year), the numbers fell by darn near 200 Majors. That's fairly significant if you're going from 750ish down to 550ish.

If what we're hearing through the rumor mill is correct, it sounds like another reduction may be in order at DEDB 2013, likely due to budget cuts. However, we still have a legal requirement to send all of the selects (top 20% from the Major's board) to school. To date, there has been no reduction in the "select" rate on the O-4 board, so the classes of 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004 all have a full 20% select rate.

This year's DEDB schedule is: 2001- last look, 2002- second look, 2003- first look. When the Air Force reduces the number of DEDB school designees, but does not reduce the select rate, the segment that gets squeezed is the candidates, IF the rumors are true (again, I have no first hand knowledge that they are true- just conjecture on my part, since you guys love reading conjecture on these threads).

IF all of this is correct...I suspect the following is likely to happen:

- WHEN the class of 2005 finally has their major's board, the school "select" rate will be set at 15%.

- This year and next year, the candidates will be squeezed out

- Starting at the DEDB in 2015 (when the class of 2005 hits their first school look), the "squeeze" will start to abate, and more candidates will be selected for school

- Candidates will have even better shots in 2016 and 2017, as the last of the "20% classes" meet their last looks

Bottom line- IF IF IF all of this is true, yes, the classes of 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004 will have severely reduced, borderline impossible opportunities for candidates to go to school from this year forward, which means the Air Force would finally, no kidding, no hiding behind glass doors, be selecting nearly ALL of its future Wing Commanders and Brigadier Generals from those four class years....while they were Captains. For all of you "late bloomers" out there, let that sit in your craw for a second.

**A BIT OF GOOD NEWS, HOWEVER**- the Air Force is STILL promoting to Lieutenant Colonel at an 85% clip per class year, and STILL promoting at a 50-55% clip to Colonel. Even if those rates slip by 5% each over the next couple of years, you will still have a significant number of O-5 and O-6 promotees that have NEVER been to school. Soooo...unlike in the past, when 35% of a given class year went to IDE and those made up a significant chunk of your future Colonels, now, you may have 25% or less going to IDE for 2001-2004, opening a wider promotion gap for non-attendees. Just food for thought.

[Champ Kind]

Only makes my decision that much easier in the near future.

[Liquid]

Liquid, GC, or anyone else in the know...

I have heard some discussion of IDE/SDE in-residence being almost cut all together for non-selects (ie: candidates) this year and additionally for the foreseeable future. Does this check with what others have been hearing? As a CAF guy, if big blue isn't providing advancement opportunities how are they going to expect pilots to stick around past their UPT commitment regardless of the bonus $ being offered? No school usually takes you out of the running for advancement opportunities therefore making you prime for the less than ideal 365's. What have others been hearing across all of the MAJCOM's? Is it true that non-select is going to mean no school in residence?

This is true for IDE and will be for at least a few years. DTs have met or will soon. Each MAJCOM can send only one candidate and as many selects as they can. Will likely be the same next year. Like GC said, not enough seats for all the selects, so very few candidates will go. More latitude on SDE. This IDE limit will hurt us. The ability to identify candidate talent after the O-4 board is critical to develop future leaders. Not sure how this one will work out. It will mean more commanders, colonels and generals won't have IDE in residence complete. Some may see that as a good thing.

Seriously? Because if there are too many pilots on AD and you let some go to the ARC where there are not too many pilots then there would no longer be too many pilots on AD yet you'd still get payback on the training and have the experienced services of those pilots available in both an operational and strategic reserve capacity. You do know that ARC guys are still on the team, right?

Plus, if you believe Chang there is talk of a RIF otherwise known as non-voluntary separation. Always a winner for morale of the force.

Plus, palace chase is free.

If Chang is right about this "glut" of pilots, then it's a win-win.

Good think we are all so educated with advanced degrees from ERAU. It creates great "thinkers" and problem solvers.

Good point. I don't really understand force management policies and I'm not involved in making them. If we are going to RIF certain year groups in certain AFSCs, it makes perfect sense to approve Palace Chase for them. They should use all force management tools to meet their objectives. Yes, TFI is a good thing. Most career fields I am familiar with are undermanned so I'm not a huge fan of ADSC waivers without overages to support.

Nice ERAU shot, asshole.

[osulax05]

Nice ERAU shot, asshole.

Shot/Kill confirms valid shot.