Promotion and PRF Information

[hispeed7721]

I'm sure he wants to get rid of it completely...but, for example, at my previous squadron -- during in processing, there was an "officer profile" to fill out with the execs. One of the lines on there was AAD - started/completed/not started

Even if it's not on the SURF, the "culture" of AAD's I fear will remain among Sq/OG/Wg CC's for a long time; at least until the next CSAF changes the policy

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[DirkDiggler]

Our Wing is currently doing a rack & stack; guidance was given to not provide AAD and PME status because they were no longer going to be considered until the O-6 board. Maybe the CSAF's intent is starting to trickle down, one can always hope.

[Liquid]

Dirk, your wing is either giving incomplete guidance or you are incorrectly describing the actual wing guidance on PME status. PME status is still important. Doing PME in-correspondence is not required if completed in-residence or designated as a select, but having grade appropriate PME accomplished is something the board members will use as a critical discriminator. CSAF said "We expect officers to complete the level of DE appropriate for each grade as they meet promotion boards for the next highest rank; SOS for Major, IDE for Lt Col, SDE for Col." Your description of the wing's guidance is good for AAD, but incomplete and possibly misleading for PME status.

[ARIs 'R' Us]

Our Wing is currently doing a rack & stack; guidance was given to not provide AAD and PME status because they were no longer going to be considered until the O-6 board. Maybe the CSAF's intent is starting to trickle down, one can always hope.

Good to hear, although like Liquid said the PME piece seems fishy. Maybe you meant PME in res vs correspondence? Still would seem off.

Technique: if they ask you, just mark completed. Then if anyone finds out and calls you a liar, call them a bigger liar. Your mileage may vary...

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[DirkDiggler]

Honestly could be either one; I just got back from two weeks of leave and am in the middle of a PCS. The guidance from the wing said to leave the PME section on their form blank, however the group's product did track PME, their product was used to develop the rack and stack sent to the wing (not the first instance of confused/incomplete guidance between them and the sq's). The record of performance lists PME completion on the SURF so its still available. Bottom line, you still need rank appropriate PME but in my small corner of the AF it appears that residence vs. correspondence PME completion and AAD isn't a major defining factor. I'm hoping the trend continues.

[Liquid]

I hope the trend continues as well. Like most, I did SOS in-correspondence before going in residence because it was locally "mandatory" to do so. Our wing told us we would not be competitive (won't go) unless you did correspondence first. Looks like we have fixed the "local" abuse of our time and effort by not allowing people to enroll unless eligible, good news. Hopefully we have done the same with IDE/SDE, not allowing selects to enroll. I don't think we have closed the gap that requires candidates to demonstrate the worthiness of being selected for in-residence unless they complete it by correspondence. I went to IDE and SDE in residence (as a select both times), and refused to do them in correspondence, but had to endure excessive "mentoring" from my commanders about how I was hurting my career and school location, by not being competitive. I showed them a copy of the A1 practice bleeding memo and reminded them that following a policy that actually made sense would probably not hurt my career. I knew the guidance, understood the unwritten expectations, accepted the risk and made an informed decision that both protected my time and served the AF. Changing the official guidance to reduce the risk of local abuse is the answer, and it looks like CSAF is well on his way to making that happen.

[Chuck17]

Excerpt from a relayed conversation between two captains:

"This is bullshit that they're not counting AAD anymore, I spent X hours doing that, now it's all wasted. All the guys that drug their feet on it, now it's paying off for them and not for me - and I worked harder. Our records are the same? No they're not! How is that fair?"

THAT is how I know this pendulum with swing - Because of the butthurt and lack of focus that we grow in our junior officer corps.

Job performance DOES mean something. It always has. The rest is indicative but ancillary, so focus on what you want to, just be aware of the pendulums swing. The only way this careerist weed will get stamped out is if the SQUADRONS enforce the CSAFs directive. The squadrons are the key to all of this - and yet we continue to erode the trust in our squadron commanders...

Chuck

Edit: because iPad typing without morning coffee is hard

Edited July 18, 2014 by Chuck17

[MSCguy]

Capt select list came out yesterday and there were a handful of non-selects-how do you get non-selected for a rank that is back to 100% unless a DNP PRF is submitted? What kind of offense is bad enough to warrant a DNP for Capt but not bad enough to get kicked out right away?

[Champ Kind]

Depends on the senior rater, but Article 15s (or any other type of paperwork for that matter) do not mean you are kicked out of the military, but they do serve as "quality force indicators" for promotion/retention.

Basically, if you had something negative written about you that made it into your record of performance (training report or OPR), you can expect it to be a factor.

[Breckey]

ie Missileers at Malmstrom.

[MSCguy]

Excerpt from a relayed conversation between two captains:

"This is bullshit that they're not counting AAD anymore, I spent X hours doing that, now it's all wasted. All the guys that drug their feet on it, now it's paying off for them and not for me - and I worked harder. Our records are the same? No they're not! How is that fair?"

I'm assuming this dude did an online diploma mill box-checking masters just because he thought he was supposed to. I don't regret my masters degree-but then again mine was an actual MBA program that qualified for commission as a 1st Lt vs. 2d Lt so I actually got something out of it other than a filled square.

Depends on the senior rater, but Article 15s (or any other type of paperwork for that matter) do not mean you are kicked out of the military, but they do serve as "quality force indicators" for promotion/retention.

Basically, if you had something negative written about you that made it into your record of performance (training report or OPR), you can expect it to be a factor.

I checked the list; I deduced that someone I knew that got kicked out of an inital skills training course for cheating was one of the DNPs.

[Champ Kind]

I checked the list; I deduced that someone I knew that got kicked out of an inital skills training course for cheating was one of the DNPs.

That'll do it.

[Jughead]

THAT is how I know this pendulum with swing - Because of the butthurt and lack of focus that we grow in our junior officer corps.

Chuck, I absolutely hear you, and I share your sentiment.

But... can you (entirely) blame those captains?? I think the key words in your post were "...that we grow in our junior officer corps"; the problem isn't those captains, it's the environment in which they were brought up.

[Spartacus]

Chuck, I absolutely hear you, and I share your sentiment.

But... can you (entirely) blame those captains?? I think the key words in your post were "...that we grow in our junior officer corps"; the problem isn't those captains, it's the environment in which they were brought up.

I have heard multiple captains complain that their masters work is now for nothing. I agree with the CSAF 100% and hope these new policies stick. However, I call B.S. to anyone that thinks these captains are wrong. I am one of those captains and spent 4 years to get my masters done. I'm glad that officers don't have to worry about doing a masters degree as early as I did, but I sacrificed countless hours away from my family and went through a lot of pain to get mine. Now it's not going to do much until later on. That's fine and good, but damn I wish I had all of that time back now.

[Champ Kind]

I have heard multiple captains complain that their masters work is now for nothing. I agree with the CSAF 100% and hope these new policies stick. However, I call B.S. to anyone that thinks these captains are wrong. I am one of those captains and spent 4 years to get my masters done. I'm glad that officers don't have to worry about doing a masters degree as early as I did, but I sacrificed countless hours away from my family and went through a lot of pain to get mine. Now it's not going to do much until later on. That's fine and good, but damn I wish I had all of that time back now.

Well put.

I will never hold it against a younger guy for not being "required" to waste their time as I did. I will caution them that they may need to be ready to have to bang it out in a hurry when the rules of the game change again.

Plenty of blame to go around to the managers who, for years, used AAD status as a major determination for advancement. It sucks I was given the impression I had to do it. I'm glad guys no longer have to, and I hope they use their newly found free time wisely and get into the books and make their respective communities better.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Champ Kind

[guineapigfury]

I'll attack from the reciprocal. I have shitty OPRs, no master's and only did SOS in correspondence. I had three strikes against me, now I only have one. How am I supposed to get passed over and kicked out with a fat severance check now? My plan is ruined.

[nsplayr]

...mine was an actual MBA program that qualified for commission as a 1st Lt vs. 2d Lt so I actually got something out of it other than a filled square...

Shouldn't we all be so lucky! Realize that your perspective is not the norm re: your experience.

Hazing continues to exist in organizations because people are often too selfish to give a guy younger than them a better deal or an easier time than they got, even when it's eminently logical and better for the organization overall.

That being said, I for one glad the rules are changing even though I spent my free time time doing an online masters that I would not have pursued unless it was a "wink wink, nudge nudge" requirement to continue a career as an officer beyond O-3. Let's stop the hazing WRT stuff that doesn't lead to mission success at the lowest level possible and hope that the powers that be will stop what they can from the CSAF/Wing/Group/Squadron on down.

Edited July 20, 2014 by nsplayr

[Slander]

I'll attack from the reciprocal. I have shitty OPRs, no master's and only did SOS in correspondence. I had three strikes against me, now I only have one. How am I supposed to get passed over and kicked out with a fat severance check now? My plan is ruined.

The way it's "supposed" to work now, is your shitty OPRs reflect poor work performance. Shitty OPRs generate shitty PRFs and the board "should" see that your past performance is not indicative of successful future leadership potential at a higher rank and thus you will be non-selected.

[Guest ThatGuy]

I'll attack from the reciprocal. I have shitty OPRs, no master's and only did SOS in correspondence. I had three strikes against me, now I only have one. How am I supposed to get passed over and kicked out with a fat severance check now? My plan is ruined.

You definitely could have skipped doing SOS via correspondence if you had desired. Correct me if I am wrong but nobody can force you to complete the correspondence course.

[Chuck17]

Champ - I agree with you and I feel your pain.

Fellas... The truth of this matter is this - it is still a requirement, though just kicked a little further down the road.

In all of my time on active duty thus far, which isn't really all that much in the grand scheme, I have learned several things... Among those:

- Policies reverse, and the outcry from the "but, but, but" crowd is always loud. Be prepared.

- You NEVER have as much time as you do RIGHT NOW, or, "the higher you go, the more demands will be made of you." Ain't no O-5s out there knocking out their degrees after spending their days as the DO or Chief of Safety... Start it, finish it, get it behind you (though at a much more leisurely pace than I had to deal with).

- And finally, in the history of reduced budgets and drawdowns, I cannot think of an instance where "requirements" for commissioned officer promotion became LESS stringent. That's just not how it works.

As I have said, our sister services ARE looking at degree completion and PME as discriminatory, and oh by the way, they promote earlier and send their guys to school earlier... (As well as sending more guys to school)

So who is going to end up with an advantage in the DoD? Don't forget this is not all about you. The service cares about the aggregate. This is about the USAF, and it's about the service getting educated and successful people into Joint jobs to further the services goal of getting more of an ever shrinking pot of money. Cynical, but true.

Keep kicking ass, spend time with your family, fly the jets, do your chores (PME and AAD), and keep things in perspective.

Chuck

[Herk Driver]

Champ - I agree with you and I feel your pain.

Fellas... The truth of this matter is this - it is still a requirement, though just kicked a little further down the road.

In all of my time on active duty thus far, which isn't really all that much in the grand scheme, I have learned several things... Among those:

- Policies reverse, and the outcry from the "but, but, but" crowd is always loud. Be prepared.

- You NEVER have as much time as you do RIGHT NOW, or, "the higher you go, the more demands will be made of you." Ain't no O-5s out there knocking out their degrees after spending their days as the DO or Chief of Safety... Start it, finish it, get it behind you (though at a much more leisurely pace than I had to deal with).

- And finally, in the history of reduced budgets and drawdowns, I cannot think of an instance where "requirements" for commissioned officer promotion became LESS stringent. That's just not how it works.

As I have said, our sister services ARE looking at degree completion and PME as discriminatory, and oh by the way, they promote earlier and send their guys to school earlier... (As well as sending more guys to school)

So who is going to end up with an advantage in the DoD? Don't forget this is not all about you. The service cares about the aggregate. This is about the USAF, and it's about the service getting educated and successful people into Joint jobs to further the services goal of getting more of an ever shrinking pot of money. Cynical, but true.

Keep kicking ass, spend time with your family, fly the jets, do your chores (PME and AAD), and keep things in perspective.

Chuck

Chuck, I agree with most of what you wrote but...

Other services (at least the Army) do not send people to residence PME once those folks have completed correspondence PME.

There are people out there that did not get an AAD through TA but instead did what Jumper and now what Welsh is advocating. It is possible to follow the rules as written. Again, as you point out the requirement is still there just pushed well down the road. And you never have more time on your hands as you take on more and more leadership and responsibility.

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[Chuck17]

Chuck, I agree with most of what you wrote but...

Other services (at least the Army) do not send people to residence PME once those folks have completed correspondence PME.

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Valid point, HD.

Caveat: Ask anyone who's spent time at Branch at HRC (Army version of AFPC for those not in the know), and they will tell you that correspondence PME is still looked down upon when compared to in-res. I expect the same paradigm will manifest itself in the AF, sooner rather than later given this new guidance. The bureaucracy is not as simple as the CSAF is attempting to make it ('yes' or 'no' check on PME), and our sister service experience is proof enough of that as fact.

Since there's fewer ways for dudes to distinguish themselves from the pack, we will see that, as well as a decided upturn in other queep like additional duties, community service, etc., mattering even more. Job performance will still matter, but we are going to deal with the problem of separating wheat from chaff in a myriad of other ways that will in the end (IMHO) be just as painful as using/getting an AAD or doing timely PME was.

It's the nature of the beast. It is unstoppable. But please don't get me wrong - I am not a fan, nor am I defending this reality - I'm merely describing the lay of the land as seen from my FGO elevation.

Fight the fight, not the rules.

Chuck

Edited July 20, 2014 by Chuck17

[Karl Hungus]

Keep kicking ass, spend time with your family, fly the jets, do your chores (PME and AAD), and keep things in perspective.

Everything you said is true. However, you left out something a ton of my peers are doing- getting their ATPs, networking with guard/reserve units, polishing their airline apps, and counting down the days until they can leave this organization, all in part because of how we force people to check ridiculous boxes and cast them as pariahs if they dare to desire to fly for a career. To lots of people, going to school and working a joint staff job sounds absolutely miserable.

[11F]

IMO, residence vs. correspondence IDE/SDE is going to be HUGE now. They may block it in the education section of your SURF, but you can't hide it in the duty history! It is what it is, and I think it's better than the AAD insanery.

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[MSCguy]

A piggyback to 11F's post-can't hide AFIT or other in-res degrees from the duty history either.