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Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)


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13 minutes ago, Gazmo said:

 


Don't waste your breath. Talk with your feet.

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If leaving and taking another opportunity is best for anyone and their family, by all means, jump on it and don't look back! But...

In reference to the ACP (amount, AFSC, timeline, etc) be educated about what is actually going on. Sport bitching is fun (I love it), but complaining about the Air Force limiting the bonus amount, and making it tiered is shooting the messenger. Congress literally writes down what the Air Force and other services are allowed to do. They use words, put it on paper, and the internet for everyone to see.

I don't expect any Captain, or line flyer to read the NDAA. Their job is to kick ass and take names in whatever MDS they operate, but at least be aware and listen to the rest of us when we emerge from our desk caves and shed some light on these things.

We have enough shit to fix without spreading bullshit false narratives amongst ourselves.

Cheers,

Beerman

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2 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

The reason for the $35K/$34K split is Congress. The NDAA markup mandated "targeted" $35K bonuses. This way the AF can follow the law and still max the bonus as much as possible.

Dumb? Yes.

But the law is the law.

I wonder if they could have done $34,999.99? That would have made me laugh out loud, and I would have actually enjoyed being the staff-O that got to type up the MFR or whatever. "It is 'tiered', congressman..."

1 hour ago, BeerMan said:

This!!! ^^^^^

I feel like we revisit this issue one a month on this forum. The NDAA is the law. Congress, specifically the SASC, said no to a $60-48k bonus.

They also said the Air Force WILL use targeted bonuses. Current AF leadership is not trying to insult our intelligence, they're following the law. 

Put another way, Congress said the monkeys should be happy with $35k in bananas. The Air Force fought back, but lost. Congress wins. Those are the rules of the game.

Write, call, or visit your Senator and your Rep and tell them what you think.

I understand this better now, and FULLY grasp that everyone in the AF answers to someone, including the COS. HOWEVER, the fault of the AF isn't that they currently have their hands tied by Congress/must do what they say. No one is blaming them for that, but there is NO DOUBT the AF could have and should have seen this coming and postured themselves earlier during "cold ops" to deal with the inevitable. Congress will likely almost always say "no" to one of their "children" at first request. The AF (at least parts of it) interfaces with Congress on a daily or weekly basis. Those individuals who do, know this, grasp how the sausage is made, and understand that they're not going to get something the first time they ask. The point? They were negligent in not initiating this effort years ago - that's the problem and complaint. Bitching about $35K vs $34K is just good fun.

34 minutes ago, BeerMan said:

If leaving and taking another opportunity is best for anyone and their family, by all means, jump on it and don't look back! But...

In reference to the ACP (amount, AFSC, timeline, etc) be educated about what is actually going on. Sport bitching is fun (I love it), but complaining about the Air Force limiting the bonus amount, and making it tiered is shooting the messenger. Congress literally writes down what the Air Force and other services are allowed to do. They use words, put it on paper, and the internet for everyone to see.

I don't expect any Captain, or line flyer to read the NDAA. Their job is to kick ass and take names in whatever MDS they operate, but at least be aware and listen to the rest of us when we emerge from our desk caves and shed some light on these things.

We have enough shit to fix without spreading bullshit false narratives amongst ourselves.

Cheers,

Beerman

I don't like blaming the messenger either, but I do think the AF has played a greater role in this "crisis" than just a message passer between the country's legislators and the line fliers. The 5-year hiatus on airline retirements built up a 5-year backlog of hiring that was certain to affect retention. Now, we're reacting, when we had all the opportunity in the world to be proactive. Seems like a missed opportunity, and one which, if properly addressed, would have been a staff effort actually worthy of receiving OPR bullets.

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2 hours ago, BeerMan said:

This!!! ^^^^^

I feel like we revisit this issue one a month on this forum. The NDAA is the law. Congress, specifically the SASC, said no to a $60-48k bonus.

They also said the Air Force WILL use targeted bonuses. Current AF leadership is not trying to insult our intelligence, they're following the law. 

Put another way, Congress said the monkeys should be happy with $35k in bananas. The Air Force fought back, but lost. Congress wins. Those are the rules of the game.

Write, call, or visit your Senator and your Rep and tell them what you think.

The law is the law, but 28K as an 11H sucks when others are getting 34/35K.  I get it.  We have the highest take rate out of the pilots in the Air Force.  But all this does is just reinforce that we always have been, and will always be the Air Force's red headed step children. 

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1 hour ago, JQuintana said:

The law is the law, but 28K as an 11H sucks when others are getting 34/35K.  I get it.  We have the highest take rate out of the pilots in the Air Force.  But all this does is just reinforce that we always have been, and will always be the Air Force's red headed step children. 

Same goes for 11Rs. Most folks I know are already planning on getting out. The fact that we are getting a pathetic $3k ACP increase while others are getting a slightly less pathetic $9-10k sure isn't going to help. 

I don't really care if Congress is to blame or the AF.

Most likely, both. 

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11 hours ago, snoopyeast said:

dvapnuyqxuesvvykpegjnq.png

 

Here is the approval rating of Congress.   Quite apparent they give fu*k all.

Oh no, they care, Gallup just asked the wrong people. Ask multi-national Corps only, how they rate Congress. That chart could be pivoted upwards around the 50 percentile line and traced. Done, approval rating in the 90s. BL, It's big fucking club...and YOU A'INT in it.

The other poster is right. The only metric of leverage you have in this world is your feet. The rest is just spinning your wheels. As the movie the Gambler posited, the key is to reach the position of fuck you.  Get there, and wanking about some chump change 20K post tax won't seem like that important a topic in the big scheme of things. Lord knows that shit wouldn't get me out of bed, let alone stay in a position where I couldn't say fuck you on command. That's the biggest thing I value as a career AFRC guy, over anything Big blue has dished at me since 2005. See my avatar. This mother can shut down and imma be alright, baby's paid for.

 

Edited by hindsight2020
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Someone please explain why 12H manning is so incredibly horrid.  They couldn't retain folks with a $15k bonus for the past few years?  As a 12S, I've yet to meet one CGO who can't wait to GTFO.  Palace Chase applications and seeking ways out are the standard.  


As a 12H, and one who actually likes his job, here is my take on it. And it is multifaceted.

HC-130's have some of the worst promotion rates in the USAF (2 years ago we had something like 2/7 make major) which makes many feel unappreciated. There are a few reasons behind this.

First we do a lot of alert and waiting for stuff to happen, which rarely does. This means that we don't rack up the impressive numbers that the 12S's and other 12's do. This is especially hard when seeing the stuff a lot of the 12S's with similar aircraft and skill sets get to do and how well 11S/12S tend to do for promotions.

Second, our community tends to be bad a writing and taking care of people's careers (stingy with strats, medals, etc... for example) though that part appears to be starting to improve.

Aside from promotions, there is sometimes a perceived "second class citizen" status of the HC-130 guys within in the rescue community. IMHO this appears to be improving as well.

Because of all of the above, many in the community feel that rescue is a dead end job so they want to get out so they can advance elsewhere.

As for me, I was a civilian firefighter in High School and College who joined the air force because it seemed like a nearly as fun way to serve (compared to career firefighter) with much better pay. I found out about the HC-130 at UCT and the mission spoke to the firefighter in me and still does. But I love rescue in spite of its flaws, not in denial of them.

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On 3/18/2017 at 11:07 PM, bronxbomber252 said:

Second, our community tends to be bad a writing and taking care of people's careers (stingy with strats, medals, etc... for example) though that part appears to be starting to improve.

 

 

Sounds like the Buff

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On 5/19/2016 at 8:29 PM, Day Man said:

 

 

I think it's DFresh, increasing traffic and lining his own pockets. :beer:

Hey DFresh, lets talk about B course graduation critiques!  If not I will, something about scheduling being like your throttle technique on TR-1...

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On 3/16/2017 at 9:31 PM, JQuintana said:

The law is the law, but 28K as an 11H sucks when others are getting 34/35K.  I get it.  We have the highest take rate out of the pilots in the Air Force.  But all this does is just reinforce that we always have been, and will always be the Air Force's red headed step children. 

Now I made my choice years ago, but you could be a Marine fighter pilot with no bonus who was just told that $5k a year will probably be approved in the future.

$28k doesn't sound all that bad. I could put a new street and track bike in the garage with that!

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Now I made my choice years ago, but you could be a Marine fighter pilot with no bonus who was just told that $5k a year will probably be approved in the future.
$28k doesn't sound all that bad. I could put a new street and track bike in the garage with that!

I don't hear much about the USMC having aviation retention problems. Is it just not as bad or not being reported? Same for the Navy.


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45 minutes ago, Duck said:


I don't hear much about the USMC having aviation retention problems. Is it just not as bad or not being reported? Same for the Navy.


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It might be because aviation is such a small part of the Marine Corps, but I'm fairly certain it's just as bad, if not worse. At least for the fighter community - I can't really speak to the others. USMC F/A-18 squadrons are at, or just slightly below 50% required manning at the Captain level, and the vast majority, i.e., 80% of the Capts I know, are planning on leaving after their commitment is complete.

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I don't hear much about the USMC having aviation retention problems. Is it just not as bad or not being reported? Same for the Navy.


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I was down range with some Marine fighter guys and I started complaining about the USAF pilot issues. Once they told me about Marine flying I felt bad for complaining in the first place. Not sure how/why they put up with it.


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I was down range with some Marine fighter guys and I started complaining about the USAF pilot issues. Once they told me about Marine flying I felt bad for complaining in the first place. Not sure how/why they put up with it.


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I had the same experience. My opinion only, but the marine aviators had more pride in their service. I'm staying at a marine corps installation right now. The small differences are very noticeable.

For instance- I called the gym on a Sunday just to see if they were open (AF gyms are usually closed on weekends unless you fill out this stupid form to gain entry with your CAC), and the very polite attendant was apologetic when she said "sir, I'm sorry to inform you that on sundays we are only open from 0500 to 2300". So I got to the gym on a Sunday, and it was packed with the corps' weapon systems training to be hard to kill.

Compare that with any silly AF gym and the gaggles of people on "profile" for shin splints.

Just one of many differences. I won't derail this thread with a discussion on the differences in officer/enlisted relations.


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It might be because aviation is such a small part of the Marine Corps, but I'm fairly certain it's just as bad, if not worse. At least for the fighter community - I can't really speak to the others. USMC F/A-18 squadrons are at, or just slightly below 50% required manning at the Captain level, and the vast majority, i.e., 80% of the Capts I know, are planning on leaving after their commitment is complete.


Why is that? Everyone is happier on AW ;)

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2 hours ago, caseylf said:

 

 


Why is that? Everyone is happier on AW ;)

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They're just happy to be off the boat with a reliable internet connection.

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http://federalnewsradio.com/air-force/2017/03/air-force-meeting-airlines-pilot-shortage-may/

Home » Defense » Air Force » UPDATED: Air Force meeting…
EXCLUSIVE
UPDATED: Air Force meeting with airlines on pilot shortage in May

By Scott Maucione | @smaucioneWFED
March 27, 2017 3:04 pm
5 min read
The Air Force is preparing to meet with commercial flight companies in hopes it can find a way to stop the bleeding of experienced pilots leaving the force.

“Our senior leaders are going to start collaborating with the airlines in May to see if we can get a public private partnership and what that might look like, so I think that’s where you’ll see we are going,” Lt. Gen. Gina Grosso, the Air Force deputy chief of staff for Manpower, Personnel and Services, told Federal News Radio.

During a March 29 House Armed Services Personnel Subcommittee hearing, Grosso said that the Air Force is exploring an intermission program that would allow pilots to fly certain seasons with an airline company and then come back to the Air Force.

Sponsored Content: Why Governance, Risk and Compliance is Everyone’s Business - Download the Executive Brief Today.

The program would give pilots seniority in the commercial airline world, while still filling much needed pilot spots in the military service.

ADVERTISEMENT

“We are also starting to look at [allowing] aviators to fly part time on their on their own. I think those are just two ideas, and there are many more,” Grosso said.

Grosso said the partnership would look for a “win-win” situation for both the airlines and the Air Force.

“How can we get stability for defending and protecting the United States and how can [the airlines] get stability in having a pipeline for their aviators? We think there are some possibilities there, especially when we look to our allies,” Grosso said. “Our allies have national airlines, so it makes it a little easier, but there are definitely some models out there that we are hoping that we can take advantage of.”

The Air Force alone is dealing with a shortage of more than 600 pilots. The service is having trouble competing with airlines that can pay pilots more. The trouble comes when pilots are up for reenlistment.

Military pilots have training and hours required to qualify to fly for the major airlines without having to work for smaller regional airlines first.

“Because major airlines work on a seniority system, the best opportunity for salary growth in the major airlines occurs for military pilots leaving after their initial service obligation,” a July 2016 RAND report stated. Another factor that is appealing to military pilots is the Federal Aviation Administration increased the mandatory retirement age for pilots from 60 to 65 in 2007, giving pilots longer to cash in on their talents.

The military services tried using reenlistment bonuses to keep pilots in the force, but their appeal is dropping.

The Navy saw a 3.7 percent drop in new retention bonus contracts in 2015, dropping from almost 59 percent to 55 percent, stated a 2016 report to Congress.

The Air Force is seeing even bigger declines. In 2013, 68 percent of eligible pilots signed on for incentive pay contracts with the Air Force. That number dropped to 59 percent in 2014 and further to 55 percent in 2015. Only 410 out of 745 pilots eligible for bonuses actually took them in 2015. Only 42 percent of pilots offered early bonus contracts took the bait.

That’s especially troubling when the Air Force estimates that the cost to train one F-22 fighter pilot, for example, is $12.5 million.

One reason the report states for the pilots’ lack of interest in bonuses is the size of the incentive pay. Pilots are allowed a maximum $25,000 bonus per year, a number that has not changed since 1999.

That incentive pay may have worked five or 10 years ago when commercial airlines weren’t paying as well, but the RAND study states commercial airline pay has rebounded to mid-1990s peak salaries of $200,000.

“We have no trouble recruiting pilots. We have more people who want to be pilots than we have spaces to train them. For us the issue is … we are not retaining enough,” Grosso said.

Grosso added that as pilots reach their 11th year in the service the Air Force needs to keep around 65 percent. Over the years, that number has slowly declined.

“We have gaps in the force and we are very, very concerned about this and our chief has called this a crisis,” Grosso said.

Grosso told Congress the new blended retirement system may provide less of an incentive for pilots to stay in the service for a full 20 years as well.

Part of the Air Force’s attempt to become more appealing to pilots involves bettering their quality of life.

“What we found in the past — and we’ve been through this before because airlines have hired before — is quality of service is as important as quality of life. And quality of service is making sure that you’re given the opportunity to be the best you can be in your design, in your chosen occupation. Pilots who don’t fly, maintainers who’s don’t maintain, controllers who don’t control, will walk. And there’s not enough money in the Treasury to keep them in if we don’t need to give them the resources to be the best they can be. In my mind, readiness and morale are inexplicably linked. Where we have high readiness, we tend to have high moral because they’re given the opportunities to compete. Where we have low readiness, we have our lowest morale,” Air Force Chief of Staff David Goldfein told the Senate Armed Services Committee last September.

To make up for that the Air Force reduced additional training and extra duties for airmen, so they can have more free time. The service is currently looking for additional areas to cut in order to better quality of life.

Rep. Martha McSally (R-Ariz.) suggested the military services try to contact pilots who left the service, but did not join an airline to see if they may be interested in flying again.

“Maybe they went to start a business of their own or tried some other ‘grass is always greener’ thing and now they are realizing they miss the camaraderie, they miss the mission … it’s challenging to try and find these people it’s challenging to find the experienced pilots that have left. Maybe they are two, three, five years out, it doesn’t matter. Retraining them with the experience they’ve had and bringing them back even for just one assignment is worth the investment,” McSally said.


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https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/articles/marines-to-offer-retention-bonuses-to-pilots-again

 

I'd almost be willing to bet it'll be $10,000/year or less.

For 6-7 hours a month? No thanks.

 

I'd be somewhat interested in the deal where you could fly for the airlines "for seasons... building seniority," like you posted Duck. But wouldnt that be similar to the Guard or Reserves?

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http://federalnewsradio.com/air-force/2017/03/air-force-meeting-airlines-pilot-shortage-may/

Home » Defense » Air Force » UPDATED: Air Force meeting…
EXCLUSIVE
UPDATED: Air Force meeting with airlines on pilot shortage in May

By Scott Maucione | @smaucioneWFED
March 27, 2017 3:04 pm
5 min read
The Air Force is preparing to meet with commercial flight companies in hopes it can find a way to stop the bleeding of experienced pilots leaving the force.

“Our senior leaders are going to start collaborating with the airlines in May to see if we can get a public private partnership and what that might look like, so I think that’s where you’ll see we are going,” Lt. Gen. Gina Grosso, the Air Force deputy chief of staff for Manpower, Personnel and Services, told Federal News Radio.

During a March 29 House Armed Services Personnel Subcommittee hearing, Grosso said that the Air Force is exploring an intermission program that would allow pilots to fly certain seasons with an airline company and then come back to the Air Force.

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This is called the ANG and AFRC Gina.... Stop screwing the ARC by treating us like AD on the cheap and learn something from us. Give us more people and more funding. Give us more full-time AGR manning with a $35k+ bonus. Give our leaders REAL leadership positions. Stop trying to push us out of the picture while harping the "Total Force" bullshit... it's gotten old.

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Not an airline guy but once a commercial pilot and member of a union, putting on my working pilot cap...

what the shit would this "season" working thing look like?  would these guy just come in the "busy" season, work up to the legal limit a few months at a time?  how the hell does that fit into the PBS with their line numbers?  was a pilot rep at this "great" meeting?

i swear the af is hell bent on doing everything but admit they actually have a institutional problem and will look for any gd thing that looks like it can keep the shoe clerk machine lurching just a few more miles down the line...

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1 hour ago, Duck said:


http://federalnewsradio.com/air-force/2017/03/air-force-meeting-airlines-pilot-shortage-may/

Home » Defense » Air Force » UPDATED: Air Force meeting…
EXCLUSIVE
UPDATED: Air Force meeting with airlines on pilot shortage in May

By Scott Maucione | @smaucioneWFED
March 27, 2017 3:04 pm
5 min read
The Air Force is preparing to meet with commercial flight companies in hopes it can find a way to stop the bleeding of experienced pilots leaving the force.

“Our senior leaders are going to start collaborating with the airlines in May to see if we can get a public private partnership and what that might look like, so I think that’s where you’ll see we are going,” Lt. Gen. Gina Grosso, the Air Force deputy chief of staff for Manpower, Personnel and Services, told Federal News Radio.

During a March 29 House Armed Services Personnel Subcommittee hearing, Grosso said that the Air Force is exploring an intermission program that would allow pilots to fly certain seasons with an airline company and then come back to the Air Force.

Sponsored Content: Why Governance, Risk and Compliance is Everyone’s Business - Download the Executive Brief Today.

The program would give pilots seniority in the commercial airline world, while still filling much needed pilot spots in the military service.

ADVERTISEMENT

“We are also starting to look at [allowing] aviators to fly part time on their on their own. I think those are just two ideas, and there are many more,” Grosso said.

Grosso said the partnership would look for a “win-win” situation for both the airlines and the Air Force.

“How can we get stability for defending and protecting the United States and how can [the airlines] get stability in having a pipeline for their aviators? We think there are some possibilities there, especially when we look to our allies,” Grosso said. “Our allies have national airlines, so it makes it a little easier, but there are definitely some models out there that we are hoping that we can take advantage of.”

The Air Force alone is dealing with a shortage of more than 600 pilots. The service is having trouble competing with airlines that can pay pilots more. The trouble comes when pilots are up for reenlistment.

Military pilots have training and hours required to qualify to fly for the major airlines without having to work for smaller regional airlines first.

“Because major airlines work on a seniority system, the best opportunity for salary growth in the major airlines occurs for military pilots leaving after their initial service obligation,” a July 2016 RAND report stated. Another factor that is appealing to military pilots is the Federal Aviation Administration increased the mandatory retirement age for pilots from 60 to 65 in 2007, giving pilots longer to cash in on their talents.

The military services tried using reenlistment bonuses to keep pilots in the force, but their appeal is dropping.

The Navy saw a 3.7 percent drop in new retention bonus contracts in 2015, dropping from almost 59 percent to 55 percent, stated a 2016 report to Congress.

The Air Force is seeing even bigger declines. In 2013, 68 percent of eligible pilots signed on for incentive pay contracts with the Air Force. That number dropped to 59 percent in 2014 and further to 55 percent in 2015. Only 410 out of 745 pilots eligible for bonuses actually took them in 2015. Only 42 percent of pilots offered early bonus contracts took the bait.

That’s especially troubling when the Air Force estimates that the cost to train one F-22 fighter pilot, for example, is $12.5 million.

One reason the report states for the pilots’ lack of interest in bonuses is the size of the incentive pay. Pilots are allowed a maximum $25,000 bonus per year, a number that has not changed since 1999.

That incentive pay may have worked five or 10 years ago when commercial airlines weren’t paying as well, but the RAND study states commercial airline pay has rebounded to mid-1990s peak salaries of $200,000.

“We have no trouble recruiting pilots. We have more people who want to be pilots than we have spaces to train them. For us the issue is … we are not retaining enough,” Grosso said.

Grosso added that as pilots reach their 11th year in the service the Air Force needs to keep around 65 percent. Over the years, that number has slowly declined.

“We have gaps in the force and we are very, very concerned about this and our chief has called this a crisis,” Grosso said.

Grosso told Congress the new blended retirement system may provide less of an incentive for pilots to stay in the service for a full 20 years as well.

Part of the Air Force’s attempt to become more appealing to pilots involves bettering their quality of life.

“What we found in the past — and we’ve been through this before because airlines have hired before — is quality of service is as important as quality of life. And quality of service is making sure that you’re given the opportunity to be the best you can be in your design, in your chosen occupation. Pilots who don’t fly, maintainers who’s don’t maintain, controllers who don’t control, will walk. And there’s not enough money in the Treasury to keep them in if we don’t need to give them the resources to be the best they can be. In my mind, readiness and morale are inexplicably linked. Where we have high readiness, we tend to have high moral because they’re given the opportunities to compete. Where we have low readiness, we have our lowest morale,” Air Force Chief of Staff David Goldfein told the Senate Armed Services Committee last September.

To make up for that the Air Force reduced additional training and extra duties for airmen, so they can have more free time. The service is currently looking for additional areas to cut in order to better quality of life.

Rep. Martha McSally (R-Ariz.) suggested the military services try to contact pilots who left the service, but did not join an airline to see if they may be interested in flying again.

“Maybe they went to start a business of their own or tried some other ‘grass is always greener’ thing and now they are realizing they miss the camaraderie, they miss the mission … it’s challenging to try and find these people it’s challenging to find the experienced pilots that have left. Maybe they are two, three, five years out, it doesn’t matter. Retraining them with the experience they’ve had and bringing them back even for just one assignment is worth the investment,” McSally said.


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If I'm an airline CEO I'm just laughing at this. How would any of that above benefit them? They are REAPING the benefits of the Air Force losing pilots.  Why would they even come to the table to talk about stuff like this?

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