pawnman Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 33 minutes ago, DuckHunter said: So we continue to study the problem. I feel like I've been hearing the "study" line for my entire career. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 17 minutes ago, pawnman said: So we continue to study the problem. I feel like I've been hearing the "study" line for my entire career. 100% agree. Now that I’m at the end of my career, I finally see this for what it is: tactics of a failing bureaucracy. Stall, delay decision until survey results, lose survey results, further study the problem, convene a committee and of course it takes time to select committee members, etc. In fact, proficiency at these tactics is a chief indicator of which senior officer is ready for another star; battlefield results are irrelevant and accountability for failure in combat is zero. If I could identify one single characteristic which is the thread tying together multiple failings of our military, small senseless policies to massive strategic failure, it would be this: combat success does not equal career success and career success can be had without combat success. If we promoted people who valued combat success above all else, everything would resolve logically including the aviation bonus. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swizzle Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 1 hour ago, DuckHunter said: Red teaming this: So they’ll run out of $, maybe, thus BoP will go only to those hard to fill locations (i.e. Del. Can.-Kun. Etc.)… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majestik Møøse Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 Increasing the bonus by $50,000 per year would cost a few hundred million, or 0.1% of the Air Force budget. That’s money that would directly decrease LM and NG income, while starving the airlines of their free pilot training program. In turn, you get happier pilots that’ll be more experienced to fight a war you never actually plan to get into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) 208 pages in - the answer is still “don’t do it!” and go enjoy a far better life in the ANG, airlines, insert-other-passion job, etc. Edited October 4, 2022 by brabus 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialD Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 12 minutes ago, brabus said: 208 pages in - the answer is still “don’t do it!” and go enjoy a far better life in the ANG, airlines, insert-other-passion job, etc. This...part time is the way! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger41 Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 I only somewhat snarkily ask this, but what is the ACTF doing daily? The word of this has been out for months. Why would they wait until now to "study" it. This is a massive (and IMO, the best) retention tool available and they should have already worked this math problem out. I don't know if anyone senior is actually looking at this site, but from one of the few AD guys from my YG, let me speak on behalf of the bros. I've had several (10+) folks that have become eligible for the bonus that have asked me for info on this. They are all intrigued and would likely sign on for the higher amount. A very common refrain is that they aren't too jazzed about going to the airlines, want to continue flying for the AD, but it doesn't make sense financially. I know that's an atom splitting revelation to say, but that's the ground truth. Pay these people and they will stay AD. I don't know why that's such a tough concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swizzle Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said: Increasing the bonus by $50,000 per year would cost a few hundred million, or 0.1% of the Air Force budget. That’s money that would directly decrease LM and NG income, while starving the airlines of their free pilot training program. In turn, you get happier pilots that’ll be more experienced to fight a war you never actually plan to get into. Remember this program is only $15k/yr increase over AVB (50k vs 35k)…they're not additive programs… Edited October 4, 2022 by Swizzle Another interpretation of your writing: yes a true $50k ADDITION to AVB would “do-it” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BashiChuni Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 anyone trusting the federal government to do the "right" thing does so at their peril. i'd bypass ANY type of bonus thrown at pilots and jump ship. much more money to be made on the outside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swizzle Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 On 10/4/2022 at 9:28 AM, brabus said: 208 pages in - the answer is still “don’t do it!” and go enjoy a far better life in the ANG, airlines, insert-other-passion job, etc. On 10/4/2022 at 2:46 PM, BashiChuni said: anyone trusting the federal government to do the "right" thing does so at their peril. i'd bypass ANY type of bonus thrown at pilots and jump ship. much more money to be made on the outside Found this gem of a website..our very own US govt CPI inflation calculator...wonder what analysis of AvB will reveal: good, bad, ugly, or fair deal? Spun it twice, and it wasn't so nice. Have a try yourself!! (Oct 2021 vs Oct 2022 comparison, lost $2,558.54 in value) (Oct 2017 vs Oct 2022 comparison....the bonus would need to be presently $42.1k/year for parity...lost $7,115.27 in purchasing power and it hasn't been addressed..that's 20.3% of its original purchasing power) Background data/ref' here: FY2017 was when it was made $35k 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryder1587 Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 It boggles my mind that people are actually making decisions about staying in or getting out based on this crappy “bonus that is not even close to the amount it should be. Either stay in because you want to or jump ship and make more in the outside world. If the “bonus” is making you stay in you probably need to reevaluate your life choices. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swizzle Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, Ryder1587 said: It boggles my mind that people are actually making decisions about staying in or getting out based on this crappy “bonus that is not even close to the amount it should be. Either stay in because you want to or jump ship and make more in the outside world. If the “bonus” is making you stay in you probably need to reevaluate your life choices. How should someone determine what it is worth? Or what about how much their time is worth? I posit analysis such as these are the most common, portable comparisons...doesn't mean it's the only measure, however should be part of one's calculus. It certainly informs the financial analysis part of that calculus. If you're a military flying addict, then being knowledgeable of it is important. It's easier to inform the portion that flying low level is fun; not much fun-analysis needed there! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 8 hours ago, Ryder1587 said: Either stay in because you want to I think that’s most bonus takers anyways. They were never really going to get out, so might as well take some extra money. Agreed it’s pretty dumb to stay in just because of the bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FourFans Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 I know the current version of the bonus was established in the 90's at 25k...but I don't know the exact date. I used the 1995 for the CPI calculator for an average... $48,277 is what it gave me for current dollars... Is a post WWGulfWarOne pilot during draw-down somehow worth more than a current get-ready-for-china pilot? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 I think that’s most bonus takers anyways. They were never really going to get out, so might as well take some extra money. Agreed it’s pretty dumb to stay in just because of the bonus. I heard an interesting counter to the “you were just gonna stay anyway” crowd in the command echelons. The Command Senior Warrant for USASOC tried that, a W4 flight lead from ARSOA goes “yeah I was gonna stay! And that bonus is what I give to the family I’m not seeing… so I don’t get divorced or hit with the Me or the Army ultimatum either way that money is small potatoes compared to the millions you’ve invested in me.”Dude just stared at him blankly having completely lost the room of people being told “you were just gonna row the boat anyway so why make your life less crappy.” Nobody in that level of leadership that makes decisions about bonus money would understand people not giving themselves wholly to the Military. You’re trying to convince people who the idea of getting out never occurred and they are so disconnected they think we all feel that way. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger41 Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 That example above is why I think the best senior officers and political officials are the ones that come from real working backgrounds and not some puppy mill. How is some 4 star that’s a legacy graduate of a service academy that’s known nothing besides the AF going to relate to normies? Or the senator who did student council, boys state, Ivy League, Ivy League law, senate staffer, etc understand that not everyone looks at service purely as some patriotic duty above all else? Tangentially related but this is why I like Teddy Roosevelt so much. Total silver spoon upbringing but moves to North Dakota after his wife and mom die on the same day and works a “strenuous life”. Gets to know real people and see what they’re about. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FourFans Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lawman said: I heard an interesting counter to the “you were just gonna stay anyway” crowd in the command echelons. The Command Senior Warrant for USASOC tried that, a W4 flight lead from ARSOA goes “yeah I was gonna stay! And that bonus is what I give to the family I’m not seeing… so I don’t get divorced or hit with the Me or the Army ultimatum either way that money is small potatoes compared to the millions you’ve invested in me.” Dude just stared at him blankly having completely lost the room of people being told “you were just gonna row the boat anyway so why make your life less crappy.” Nobody in that level of leadership that makes decisions about bonus money would understand people not giving themselves wholly to the Military. You’re trying to convince people who the idea of getting out never occurred and they are so disconnected they think we all feel that way. 35 minutes ago, Danger41 said: That example above is why I think the best senior officers and political officials are the ones that come from real working backgrounds and not some puppy mill. How is some 4 star that’s a legacy graduate of a service academy that’s known nothing besides the AF going to relate to normies? Or the senator who did student council, boys state, Ivy League, Ivy League law, senate staffer, etc understand that not everyone looks at service purely as some patriotic duty above all else? Tangentially related but this is why I like Teddy Roosevelt so much. Total silver spoon upbringing but moves to North Dakota after his wife and mom die on the same day and works a “strenuous life”. Gets to know real people and see what they’re about. Reading this, I realized I was one of 'those' who would have stayed for an eternity, or generalship, or until big blue spit me out. In hindsight...I'm so glad I got a 'USAF appreciation tour' in NATO...after which I chose the Reserves...where I will happily finish my career. Big Blue is VERY tarnished in my view...rightly and justly so. In the same right, I fully understand the source, and the reason for the "puppy mill" of the academies...because the logic is sound. No logic can ignore a university who's sole purpose is to create a man who is dedicated to that university's founding principles. Literally EVERY university sits on that basic logic. The military academies make absolutely complete and logical sense. It has unfortunately and inexorably been twisted by 'the state' that we currently experience. When you poison a state, the first symptoms appear in that state's premier presentation of itself: It's institutions. I'm both saddened and not at all shocked. In the real world of men who abide by, and strive to, a moral life...a moral reality upon which our country was founded and ideally strives towards...a university experience where the elite study and strive against each other for excellence and achievement makes perfect sense. No wonder our modern generation is confused by it. Doing hard things because they are difficult makes no sense to a generation who was raised by a generation who sought comfort that they earned...thanks boomers. "You can be whatever you want" made sense to both the generation who fought to make it happen, and the generation who grew up hearing it. It does. That's what I would offer to my kids if I'd earned it on the beaches of Omaha and Utah...but I didn't. Unfortunately our current millennial *not Z* generation didn't simply hear those words, they internalized them. The world we have today is what happens when you expect the world to be given to you with no price tag. The "millennial" attitude is obvious. (I know many millennials that are not 'millennial'...and I thank them for their wisdom). Can I give thanks to Gen X? or the Millennials who were wise? Yes. We have a Gen Z that is good. Gen Z is tired of the entitlement. They want to know the answer to a simple question: "Why". I am sincerely hopeful that we have a Gen Z (and beyond) that will turn into the newest version of the the Iron Ass Reagan Babies...while skipping the need for a greatest generation. ****the historian in me dreadfully hopes I am right, but the realist in me sincerely knows that they will have to be the next 'greatest generation...but let's be optimistic**** They can. Unfortunately, it is now up to some significant hard times, and the stiff upper lip of older men to make sure our country survives to be inherited by these Gen Z's. It's also up to us to vote in those who will lead them into that capacity. We must be the crusty NCOs and Lt Cols that survive the shit times and train these young men to carry our nation into success. None of that can happen if we vote ourselves out of existence. ****Listen up MFers. If we don't vote right, we become the EXACT same as the generation that created WWI and WWII. We can do better. Biden is our Chamberlain AND FDR. Stop this shit**** Edited October 18, 2022 by FourFans130 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoleIt Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 Quote To qualify for the $100,000 bonus, pilots must have at least 950 hours of Part 121 time. Pilots with between 500 and 949 hours of Part 121 time will be eligible for the $75,000 bonus. https://avgeekery.com/piedmont-airlines-offers-100k-bonus/?fbclid=IwAR1mew77Ql1BOEZY_945WEitdjQ4cRpMRnrEo2WGpjMeTEvPKupxNJeKxTU Even Peidmont is crushing the AF's bonus offer. Food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homestar Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 Do they offer a bonus for pilots with no part 121 time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viperdriver1313 Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Homestar said: Do they offer a bonus for pilots with no part 121 time? I love reading the NDAA 23 and see some of the millions/billions that is spent on other sh** that could be used towards the bonus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 Like bailouts for FTX? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cragspider Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 Well if you haven’t heard by now Delta just made the bonus obsolete completely. They have now expanded when they will hire us from active duty. This was posted on their Pilot recruiting FB page, along with a story about it on their website as well. At Delta Air Lines, we are committed to recruiting, hiring, and retaining top talent from the U.S. Armed Forces to better serve those who served us. As part of this commitment, we are proud to announce that we will begin interviewing and extending conditional job offers (CJOs) to retiring full-time active-duty military and full-time Active Guard Reserve (AGR) members, as an expansion of the previous process. For all other military members, we will also begin interview processes and extending CJOs to successful candidates 12 months prior to their availability date. “This process expansion will allow retiring service members to secure a job at Delta Air Lines while finishing up their patriotic duties over a period of up to two years and up to one year for all other military members,” said John Laughter, E.V.P. and Chief of Operations. “This will provide our service members and their families with the security of a career lined up and ready, while they make a life transition and get settled in the next chapter of their lives. On behalf of the entire Delta family, thank you for your service.” If you are a veteran, active-duty military, or active-duty military approaching retirement, visit our skills translator website below, which will match the skills and specialties you earned in the military to open positions at Delta Air Lines. https://www.military.com/mst/delta/mos-translator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 9 hours ago, Guardian said: Like bailouts for FTX? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swizzle Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 On 10/4/2022 at 7:20 AM, pawnman said: So we continue to study the problem. I feel like I've been hearing the "study" line for my entire career. On second thought, it’s like airline union contracts…always in negotiation, till a strike reset or ops are negatively affected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FUSEPLUG Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 14 hours ago, cragspider said: Well if you haven’t heard by now Delta just made the bonus obsolete completely. They have now expanded when they will hire us from active duty. I’m guessing the rest of the airlines will be announcing similar plans soon. To those about to bail, my advice is to decide where you want to live, then pick a company with a base there, or the one with the easiest commute. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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