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Didn't know there was so much of a difference between rated & non-rated officers; are non-rated officers actually this clueless?


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15 hours ago, FLEA said:

In all reality I was typing a response I ended up deleting the other day in a different thread; but jist of it was, has anyone else noticed the huge culture gap between younger members who missed GWOT and those who spent significant investments of their life in it? I don't want to call it naivety but the idealistic enthusiasm they project is a bit telling. 

Hard to remember exactly the feeling when we joined, but I bet you weren’t already a jaded battle veteran straight outta UPT.

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first part of this is possibly my most "i've been on baseops for a while" post i think i've ever made:
i was trying to get finance to turn off my married rate BAH for months but no one answered the phone, the portal they have is a Byzantine maze, and the office looked* dark and locked; finally said it and just pulled the sliding door open and lo and behold, there were people who were eager to help me.
i mention this because apparently the SECAF is trying to roll finance into MPF and squadron CSS functions and so is in the process of shuttering Finance shops around the service. my FE buddy told me this, no idea if it's true, but it did make me feel a lot of empathy for the E-1 and O-1 who ended up helping me, they didn't decide to do this dumb shit, they just have to go along with it, in that way they're actually remarkably like us on the rated side.


All you should have to do is take the divorce paperwork to DEERS. Finance can’t do anything until DEERS reflects your status.
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On 9/5/2022 at 1:08 AM, dream big said:

To Danger’s point above, a little education both ways goes a long way.  I don’t envy the AMU 0-2 in charge of 200 maintainers while their peers are learning to put the gear down without overspeeding the jet. 

THIS right here. Managing real live people and their personal issues vs equipment. Granted both have their challenges. Had this conversation many times over the years and how painful it is on a good day. I've never seen a jet get a DUI. Imagine what it's like in other services that are more manpower intensive.

Edited by fire4effect
clarity
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On 9/5/2022 at 5:00 PM, FLEA said:

In all reality I was typing a response I ended up deleting the other day in a different thread; but jist of it was, has anyone else noticed the huge culture gap between younger members who missed GWOT and those who spent significant investments of their life in it? I don't want to call it naivety but the idealistic enthusiasm they project is a bit telling. 

I couldn’t put my finger on it exactly….but I sensed it at the Died over the past year. 
 

Seeing the same thing in the Navy. 
 

ATIS

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Guess I'll be the asshole here. 
 

I witnessed numerous base support agencies milk covid ops well past the point of reason. I'm talking teleworking and zero in person customer service hours long past the point everyone else was back to work in person. This also falls on the wing commander (ours was a bag of shit at the time) to properly set expectations.

In my time dealing with support agency officers I've found they almost regard themselves as guardians against external forces making their troops do actual work. Like a "not in my AFI" brick wall that actually has some rank behind it. This isn't everyone, and I know support functions are often a thankless job (much like Squadron scheduling no one notices it until its fucked up)
 

But I'm somehow the asshole because I'm wondering where my TDY pay is 2 months later, even though they'll throw a shit fit if I don't submit my voucher within 5 days. I'm the asshole for having the audacity to cold call a support agency during business hours to try to fix a problem without an appointment. And I'm especially the asshole if I expect their office to have walk in hours that wouldn't make a banker jealous. 
 

Question: if they're so desperately understaffed and behind on work why is the entire FSS taking hour plus lunches and their parking lot empty by 1530 every day? 

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Guess I'll be the asshole here. 
 
I witnessed numerous base support agencies milk covid ops well past the point of reason. I'm talking teleworking and zero in person customer service hours long past the point everyone else was back to work in person. This also falls on the wing commander (ours was a bag of shit at the time) to properly set expectations.
In my time dealing with support agency officers I've found they almost regard themselves as guardians against external forces making their troops do actual work. Like a "not in my AFI" brick wall that actually has some rank behind it. This isn't everyone, and I know support functions are often a thankless job (much like Squadron scheduling no one notices it until its ed up)
 
But I'm somehow the asshole because I'm wondering where my TDY pay is 2 months later, even though they'll throw a shit fit if I don't submit my voucher within 5 days. I'm the asshole for having the audacity to cold call a support agency during business hours to try to fix a problem without an appointment. And I'm especially the asshole if I expect their office to have walk in hours that wouldn't make a banker jealous. 
 
Question: if they're so desperately understaffed and behind on work why is the entire FSS taking hour plus lunches and their parking lot empty by 1530 every day? 

There’s also this.
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Pile on: I think a lot of this stems from the fact that many support agency jobs don't really make you feel like you're in the military. If your entire day is finance paperwork on the computer, it's hard to feel a connection to the mission or any sort of sense of urgency. This is probably why deployed support is so much better.. the feeling of connectedness to the mission is front and center. 
 

A perfect example: an unnamed IDRC at an unnamed base tried to delay the redeploy of over 200 pax by a week because the return date was going to cause them to have to min man a half day in the IDRC at the end of a 4 day weekend. Luckily they got their pee pee schwacked and everyone got home on time but this is the disconnect I'm talking about.  To them it made total sense to keep hundreds of people away from their families for another week in order to preserve a half day for maybe 5 people maximum.  The "not in my afi" and protect your troops from doing work at all costs is a pervasive attitude in the support world. 

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Guess I'll be the asshole here. 
 
I witnessed numerous base support agencies milk covid ops well past the point of reason. I'm talking teleworking and zero in person customer service hours long past the point everyone else was back to work in person. This also falls on the wing commander (ours was a bag of shit at the time) to properly set expectations.
In my time dealing with support agency officers I've found they almost regard themselves as guardians against external forces making their troops do actual work. Like a "not in my AFI" brick wall that actually has some rank behind it. This isn't everyone, and I know support functions are often a thankless job (much like Squadron scheduling no one notices it until its ed up)
 
But I'm somehow the asshole because I'm wondering where my TDY pay is 2 months later, even though they'll throw a shit fit if I don't submit my voucher within 5 days. I'm the asshole for having the audacity to cold call a support agency during business hours to try to fix a problem without an appointment. And I'm especially the asshole if I expect their office to have walk in hours that wouldn't make a banker jealous. 
 
Question: if they're so desperately understaffed and behind on work why is the entire FSS taking hour plus lunches and their parking lot empty by 1530 every day? 

Best phrase I’ve learned is… what AFI is that in and who is the waiver authority so I can contact them?


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On 9/5/2022 at 4:51 PM, Pitt4401 said:

I'm a tad concerned what today's CGOs will see as their crucible?  'That one time I was a Multi-Capable Airman'?

As a third year Captain, an upcoming third flying deployment in just over three years of my first operational unit. The first was to Iraq, shut down ops there for our MDS and set up a new location. Second was to Kabul last summer off of an IRF and did a lot outside of being an 11H (as did everyone I was with for those two months). Third is upcoming to a third AOR, doing "the thing." I'm honestly exited I get to be away for six months. 

Having seen joint and Combined operations from vastly different authority levels, I agree with @frog. People don't know what they don't know, and being able to take a step back and digest info before making decisions is huge to keep issues at the lowest level, and not duck* over the guys and gals is huge to be "successful." 

Edited by Chef16
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2 hours ago, Pooter said:

Guess I'll be the asshole here. 
 

I witnessed numerous base support agencies milk covid ops well past the point of reason. I'm talking teleworking and zero in person customer service hours long past the point everyone else was back to work in person. This also falls on the wing commander (ours was a bag of shit at the time) to properly set expectations.

In my time dealing with support agency officers I've found they almost regard themselves as guardians against external forces making their troops do actual work. Like a "not in my AFI" brick wall that actually has some rank behind it. This isn't everyone, and I know support functions are often a thankless job (much like Squadron scheduling no one notices it until its fucked up)
 

But I'm somehow the asshole because I'm wondering where my TDY pay is 2 months later, even though they'll throw a shit fit if I don't submit my voucher within 5 days. I'm the asshole for having the audacity to cold call a support agency during business hours to try to fix a problem without an appointment. And I'm especially the asshole if I expect their office to have walk in hours that wouldn't make a banker jealous. 
 

Question: if they're so desperately understaffed and behind on work why is the entire FSS taking hour plus lunches and their parking lot empty by 1530 every day? 

Do we work in the same location? 😆 

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Pile on: I think a lot of this stems from the fact that many support agency jobs don't really make you feel like you're in the military. If your entire day is finance paperwork on the computer, it's hard to feel a connection to the mission or any sort of sense of urgency. This is probably why deployed support is so much better.. the feeling of connectedness to the mission is front and center. 
 
A perfect example: an unnamed IDRC at an unnamed base tried to delay the redeploy of over 200 pax by a week because the return date was going to cause them to have to min man a half day in the IDRC at the end of a 4 day weekend. Luckily they got their pee pee schwacked and everyone got home on time but this is the disconnect I'm talking about.  To them it made total sense to keep hundreds of people away from their families for another week in order to preserve a half day for maybe 5 people maximum.  The "not in my afi" and protect your troops from doing work at all costs is a pervasive attitude in the support world. 

Deployed support is not at all better.


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1 hour ago, CaptainMorgan said:


Deployed support is not at all better.


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Agreed!  Recently returned from yet another all expense paid vacation and finding anyone to do anything, outside of ops and mx, was damn near impossible.
Maybe if we could go back to the good old days of paper travel vouchers and a pile of wadded up receipts that I chucked at a finance troop as I walked by, could possibly make them feel more part of the team. At least they pretended to give a shit back then. 

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34 minutes ago, O Face said:

Agreed!  Recently returned from yet another all expense paid vacation and finding anyone to do anything, outside of ops and mx, was damn near impossible.
Maybe if we could go back to the good old days of paper travel vouchers and a pile of wadded up receipts that I chucked at a finance troop as I walked by, could possibly make them feel more part of the team. At least they pretended to give a shit back then. 

Woah careful there old man! Online portals and waiting room electronic kiosks are the name of the game now. Person to person interactions need to be avoided at all costs because they're just. so. busy. 

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One of my fav deployed lack of support stories.

I was literally the ONLY US pilot on a base flying missions for OIF at the time and needed a PT test.

Went through 3 enlisted levels and 2 officers finally being told by an O-5 I couldn’t do a test there because it would get flagged at Shaw AFB even though I had the reg authorizing it.

A full bird (pilot)had to step in and let support know that when there is a total of 1 US operations person on base, they could cut thru the bureaucracy.

Lasting impact on me how un-empowered our support officers are and how little anyone realizes their role to support anything other than other support people.

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I’ll chalk up a win for the FSS a few years ago at a “forward” tanker base:

PT testing was completely optional but the run was well executed. They had measured a 1.5 mile course along the flightline road. They figured out which way the wind was blowing (usually 25 knots) and pointed which way to run for the day based on tail wind.


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On 9/7/2022 at 7:02 PM, Skitzo said:

Best phrase I’ve learned is… what AFI is that in and who is the waiver authority so I can contact them?

5 hours ago, di1630 said:

Went through 3 enlisted levels and 2 officers finally being told by an O-5 I couldn’t do a test there because it would get flagged at Shaw AFB even though I had the reg authorizing it.

A full bird (pilot)had to step in and let support know that when there is a total of 1 US operations person on base, they could cut thru the bureaucracy.

Lasting impact on me how un-empowered our support officers are and how little anyone realizes their role to support anything other than other support people.

A lot of support people don’t realize the rules are made up. Ops guys tend to be naturally rebellious smartasses that think generic rules aren’t as important as mission accomplishment.

I’ve found it surprising how many people in the world subconsciously or actively crave the structure and mild oppression that bureaucracy brings. I think it makes them feel like they’re part of an advanced system.

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2 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

I’ve found it surprising how many people in the world subconsciously or actively crave the structure and mild oppression that bureaucracy brings. 

Damn dude!!  That is a beautiful quote. Can I use that in future conversations and pretend that I originated it?

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Well since we’re sharing stories…my personal favorite was the MSG/CC they had at Manas circa 2011/2012. Decided it was too onerous on her bus drivers to drive aircrew to where they needed to go. So after flying max duty days and landing at -19C we had to decide as a crew if we wanted to get dropped off with our bags at our dorm building then hoof it a mile round trip in the snow to get our keys and linens, or if we wanted to get dropped off at the lodging office then make the one-way walk dragging all our other crap with us. That’s the same time the bumper stickers saying “We support Support” started showing up and all other assorted changes started happening that are too boring to rehash. That ‘10-‘15 period was a low point for tribalism IMHO.

 

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2 hours ago, brabus said:

How did the OG or WG not crush that shit immediately?

Because the Ops Group always gets shafted. We have the weakest union out of all the groups IMO.

The techno bus at 3am was always nice though...as was Pete's. "B-69! That's a bingo."

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12 hours ago, brabus said:

How did the OG or WG not crush that shit immediately?

IIRC most deployed leadership at the time was preoccupied on appeasing the chiefs on things like out of control mustaches and pocketed hands. You know, the kind of stuff that wins wars!

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On 9/10/2022 at 3:01 PM, brabus said:

How did the OG or WG not crush that shit immediately?

I too always wonder this when Group/Wing SNCOs or MSG leadership make policies that inhibit ops. Not sure if the Wg/CC is afraid of shoe clerks complaining to NAF/MAJCOM IG or if there is some type of mass castration event preceding SDE graduation that we don’t know about. 

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