Air Force is hiring for civilian T-6 IPs

[kaputt]

Sooo did this program officially die? The first few selected should be in training already right? With the next group about to be selected? 

[08Dawg]

One guy (who I guess is the program manager or ramrod for this thing) was enthusiastically defending it on various facebook pages and was "overwhelmed with the huge turnout"...I haven't heard or seen shit since the summer. 

[HuggyU2]

Apparently OPM has given them a number of issues that they "are working through", and they maintain that the first group of interns will be in the program "after the first of the year".  

[Clark Griswold]

How is the AF not able to do this? The Army has DACs (dept of the army civilians) flying aircraft as instructors and just regular crew stateside for years


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Danger41]

1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

How is the AF not able to do this? The Army has DACs (dept of the army civilians) flying aircraft as instructors and just regular crew stateside for years


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed. I know the PC-12 portion of U-28 FTU is flown almost exclusively by civilians. Has been for a decade plus.

[Bigred]

2 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

How is the AF not able to do this? The Army has DACs (dept of the army civilians) flying aircraft as instructors and just regular crew stateside for years


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The cynic in me says that it’s not that the Air Force can’t figure out how to do it, it’s that no one applied hence are physically unable to do it. In true Mother Blue fashion, they are kicking the can down the road vice admitting defeat. 

[Clark Griswold]

Agreed. I know the PC-12 portion of U-28 FTU is flown almost exclusively by civilians. Has been for a decade plus.

Did not know that.

The cynic in me says that it’s not that the Air Force can’t figure out how to do it, it’s that no one applied hence are physically unable to do it. In true Mother Blue fashion, they are kicking the can down the road vice admitting defeat. 

Quite possible
Get out your check book AF and you can fix this
1 - Hire for 2 year contracts ER / other aviation colleges grads for two year contracts or 750 training sorties. Incentivize timely production. 100k student loan repayment upon completion and with housing provided, pay per flight hour avg FO pay at an LCC.
2 - Offer 2-3 year MPA tours with 50k bonus per year as long TDYs to Guard and Reserve
3 - Recruit Army WO pilots

You have the money in MILPERS, stop being miserly, if you wanna catch fish sometimes you just need more/better bait


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HuggyU2]

2 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

How is the AF not able to do this? 

To reiterate the email I just received from the AF last Wednesday, they are working through final details to onboard their first group of individuals. 
I have not heard anything about them being "not able to do this".

[hindsight2020]

56 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

Did not know that.


Quite possible
Get out your check book AF and you can fix this
1 - Hire for 2 year contracts ER / other aviation colleges grads for two year contracts or 750 training sorties. Incentivize timely production. 100k student loan repayment upon completion and with housing provided, pay per flight hour avg FO pay at an LCC.
2 - Offer 2-3 year MPA tours with 50k bonus per year as long TDYs to Guard and Reserve
3 - Recruit Army WO pilots

You have the money in MILPERS, stop being miserly, if you wanna catch fish sometimes you just need more/better bait


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

occams razor fellas....

 

Your assumption of the problem is inaccurate, your suggestions are thus moot. To wit, we dont have a shortage of IPs in AETC. RegAf mismanages their bodies on qweep, but lack of bodies we do not have, for the status quo production. The point of replacing us green suiters with blue suiters is straight up DoD wanting to short  labor costs, especially legacy costs such as retirement and VA ratings. They cant scale it because the offer has to be miserly in the first place. The air force wont dare staff their core production on majority airline aspirant civilians either, highly elastic to airline hiring conditions. Thats the point of the ADSC on the green side in the first place.

Theyve done it historically on the mx side and the blunders have been repetitive and evident. The engine issues on the t38 are the latest example of that reliance on civilian hands with little recourse. Maybe they can take a page from swa DEN ground chief, on how to threaten civilians back to work in a sellers market lol.

 

At any rate, the only remaining cohort left is the retirees who dont want to do the airlines/91k, stacking a non-ART base rate GS on top of a green retirement. But without the first payer retirement it doesnt pencil out for the majority who are not in the jelly of the month club, especially in Del rio (did my 7 years consecutive, before the one regaf vml cycle apologist comes to tell me iT aiNt dUht bAd).

Thats why it aint scaling, and it wont. There's just not that many weirdo birds of that condition willing to sunset in the upt locales for what they can get at a sim outfit in a big city with nice suburbs or exurbs, if homesteading is the hangup. 

And your assumption on mil appropriations for aetc is also erroneous. We throw loads of mpa to those who want it in the associate side of upt units. We already carry an outsized per capita share of the production load, leverage which quite literally justifies our yearly survival going forward. The problem is the planning offered for long tours is impractical for airline guys. Typical regaf stupidity. Offer 365 carte blanche on october 10, when in the summer of the prior fiscal they told you not to bank on any mpa for the upcoming fiscal. Then act surprised you have no takers wiling to upend their family lives on command. Absent the usual suspect outliers (e.g. airline guy with kids divorced from upt townie and that late 30s female mid life crisis that seems to be going around military marriages as of late, sticking to a year long mpa to save on the kids child support on nights away basis, while notching  the "best job in the world" ....for a 4th year in a row....digress), theres just not enough volume there on the fringes.

 I appreciate this might seem like a cool retirement hobby for the second career crowd, but this program wont scale. And for full disclosure, for the sake of my ability to complete my active duty retirement i hope it continues to die on the vine. Im certainly not going to cheerlead for my own paycut. We're all rent seekers in this life, cast ye first stone, and that goes especially so for civilian defense contractors. Happy holidays ya filthy animals.

[Clark Griswold]

12 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

To reiterate the email I just received from the AF last Wednesday, they are working through final details to onboard their first group of individuals. 
I have not heard anything about them being "not able to do this".

Gotcha 

11 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

occams razor fellas....

Your assumption of the problem is inaccurate, your suggestions are thus moot. To wit, we dont have a shortage of IPs in AETC. RegAf mismanages their bodies on qweep, but lack of bodies we do not have, for the status quo production. The point of replacing us green suiters with blue suiters is straight up DoD wanting to short  labor costs, especially legacy costs such as retirement and VA ratings. They cant scale it because the offer has to be miserly in the first place. The air force wont dare staff their core production on majority airline aspirant civilians either, highly elastic to airline hiring conditions. Thats the point of the ADSC on the green side in the first place.

Theyve done it historically on the mx side and the blunders have been repetitive and evident. The engine issues on the t38 are the latest example of that reliance on civilian hands with little recourse. Maybe they can take a page from swa DEN ground chief, on how to threaten civilians back to work in a sellers market lol.

At any rate, the only remaining cohort left is the retirees who dont want to do the airlines/91k, stacking a non-ART base rate GS on top of a green retirement. But without the first payer retirement it doesnt pencil out for the majority who are not in the jelly of the month club, especially in Del rio (did my 7 years consecutive, before the one regaf vml cycle apologist comes to tell me iT aiNt dUht bAd).

Thats why it aint scaling, and it wont. There's just not that many weirdo birds of that condition willing to sunset in the upt locales for what they can get at a sim outfit in a big city with nice suburbs or exurbs, if homesteading is the hangup. 

And your assumption on mil appropriations for aetc is also erroneous. We throw loads of mpa to those who want it in the associate side of upt units. We already carry an outsized per capita share of the production load, leverage which quite literally justifies our yearly survival going forward. The problem is the planning offered for long tours is impractical for airline guys. Typical regaf stupidity. Offer 365 carte blanche on october 10, when in the summer of the prior fiscal they told you not to bank on any mpa for the upcoming fiscal. Then act surprised you have no takers wiling to upend their family lives on command. Absent the usual suspect outliers (e.g. airline guy with kids divorced from upt townie and that late 30s female mid life crisis that seems to be going around military marriages as of late, sticking to a year long mpa to save on the kids child support on nights away basis, while notching  the "best job in the world" ....for a 4th year in a row....digress), theres just not enough volume there on the fringes.

 I appreciate this might seem like a cool retirement hobby for the second career crowd, but this program wont scale. And for full disclosure, for the sake of my ability to complete my active duty retirement i hope it continues to die on the vine. Im certainly not going to cheerlead for my own paycut. We're all rent seekers in this life, cast ye first stone, and that goes especially so for civilian defense contractors. Happy holidays ya filthy animals.

Concur with over manning in useless positions in staff positions with pilots and no disagreement on A1 not selling the assignment because they insanely believe they are not going to get the same / a bit more MILPERS in the next FY that they have been getting in the previous recent FYs. 

Yeah there's some risk taken but not an inordinate amount for the reward (filling critical manning) then you take risk, if you don't get the MILPERS you thought you were going to get, reprioritize as you spent some early and don't fund something else. 

Multiyear MPA tours are possible and can / should be advertised to attract volunteers and done so that the member could make plans to keep mama bear and cubs happy.

I'm just ranting and not disagreeing that it won't scale, I'm just ranting because the AF again is confronted with a problem and just looks for ways and rules to keep itself from solving it.  

Edited December 29, 2022 by Clark Griswold

[One_Tilty_Boi]

Is the program taking former military pilots?

Serious question. I am a current Marine Corps V-22 pilot with around 650 hours. Due to current manning across the V-22 community, it is extremely unlikely I receive orders for a second flying tour. Headquarters Marine Corps does not want to send pilots to be Navy flight school IPs unless they are water-walkers because it is considered a non-career enhancing assignment. HQMC actually leaves flight school IP billets gapped rather than send people there who they know are just going to leave and go to the airlines immediately after.

The airlines are the eventual end goal for me, but I legitimately loved flying the T-6 in Primary training and would do a lot of dirty things to get back to it and instruct.

[StoleIt]

1 hour ago, One_Tilty_Boi said:

Is the program taking former military pilots?

Serious question. I am a current Marine Corps V-22 pilot with around 650 hours. Due to current manning across the V-22 community, it is extremely unlikely I receive orders for a second flying tour. Headquarters Marine Corps does not want to send pilots to be Navy flight school IPs unless they are water-walkers because it is considered a non-career enhancing assignment. HQMC actually leaves flight school IP billets gapped rather than send people there who they know are just going to leave and go to the airlines immediately after.

The airlines are the eventual end goal for me, but I legitimately loved flying the T-6 in Primary training and would do a lot of dirty things to get back to it and instruct.

Why not look into getting hired at one of the AFRC T-6 units?

[hindsight2020]

2 hours ago, StoleIt said:

Why not look into getting hired at one of the AFRC T-6 units?

As a non-retiree, that's what I would do. It's a bit more uphill right now for the poster as an interservice transfer type, but not impossible. Plenty of current/qualified guys using the 340th as a airline-juniority nuclear moderator (but we don't talk about fight club, especially not around civilian-only 121 coworkers).

The Marine/Navy Reserves are just a different animal altogether. They don't run their program in particularly attractive way, compared to ANG or even AFRC.

 

[RedEye1911]

4 hours ago, One_Tilty_Boi said:

Is the program taking former military pilots?

Serious question. I am a current Marine Corps V-22 pilot with around 650 hours. Due to current manning across the V-22 community, it is extremely unlikely I receive orders for a second flying tour. Headquarters Marine Corps does not want to send pilots to be Navy flight school IPs unless they are water-walkers because it is considered a non-career enhancing assignment. HQMC actually leaves flight school IP billets gapped rather than send people there who they know are just going to leave and go to the airlines immediately after.

The airlines are the eventual end goal for me, but I legitimately loved flying the T-6 in Primary training and would do a lot of dirty things to get back to it and instruct.

Just get 100 hours in a Cessna, get your restricted ATP, and get hired by a regional. Fly there for a year and then get hired by a legacy. In three years you'll be making bank.

[kaputt]

11 hours ago, One_Tilty_Boi said:

Is the program taking former military pilots?

Serious question. I am a current Marine Corps V-22 pilot with around 650 hours. Due to current manning across the V-22 community, it is extremely unlikely I receive orders for a second flying tour. Headquarters Marine Corps does not want to send pilots to be Navy flight school IPs unless they are water-walkers because it is considered a non-career enhancing assignment. HQMC actually leaves flight school IP billets gapped rather than send people there who they know are just going to leave and go to the airlines immediately after.

The airlines are the eventual end goal for me, but I legitimately loved flying the T-6 in Primary training and would do a lot of dirty things to get back to it and instruct.

I'm pretty sure this program never came to fruition. 

[08Dawg]

23 hours ago, kaputt said:

I'm pretty sure this program never came to fruition. 

This is my surprised face...😑

[HuggyU2]

On 8/5/2023 at 8:40 PM, kaputt said:

I'm pretty sure this program never came to fruition. 

Sort of.  

AFPC is still waiting for OPM to finalize a decision.  

If they elect to approve it, the advertising and selection process will begin again.  I wouldn't expect to hear anything until 2024.  

 

[kaputt]

3 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

Sort of.  

AFPC is still waiting for OPM to finalize a decision.  

If they elect to approve it, the advertising and selection process will begin again.  I wouldn't expect to hear anything until 2024.  

 

If approved, are they still planning to do the internship approach with only Aviation degree recent grads? Or is some common sense prevailing and have these be regular GS level jobs open to anyone? 

[HuggyU2]

That's a level of detail that I don't have. 

[LookieRookie]

On 8/7/2023 at 6:37 PM, kaputt said:

If approved, are they still planning to do the internship approach with only Aviation degree recent grads? Or is some common sense prevailing and have these be regular GS level jobs open to anyone? 

It’s to use the PALACE authorities

[slapticles]

https://www.usajobs.gov/job/766945700#

Is this the same thing?

[HuggyU2]

Sure looks like it. 
 

My last inquiry to AFPC was in  August, and here is their reply:

"We are still waiting on OPM to make a decision and once we have that answer, we will know which way the program is going to go.  Assuming they decide favorably, we will begin with an advertisement for the positions and start the selection process all over again.  I would not expect to hear anything for the next few months at best.  I am sorry this is taking so long but we are trying to reshape a portion of how pilot training is conducted in the Air Force and with a change that big there are always issues that need to be addressed."
 

[kaputt]

On 2/9/2024 at 8:41 PM, slapticles said:

https://www.usajobs.gov/job/766945700#

Is this the same thing?

I had thought it would be for sim instructor slots, but the posting does seem to be geared towards a flying position. Hour requirements match the OPM mins for any flying position. 
 

Locations are UPT bases, except for Tyndall. What’s at Tyndall that would need a GS pilot? 

[brabus]

7 minutes ago, kaputt said:

What’s at Tyndall that would need a GS pilot? 

Drone squadron that supports WSEP

[HossHarris]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

Drone squadron that supports WSEP

Drones and F-16s