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21 hours ago, herkbier said:

It’s actually very easy.. you start with being truthful in everything you say. You have integrity. You admit everywhere you’ve failed to do that. You don’t tell white lies of omission for political reasons or to try and steer people one way or the other. 
 

Those institutions have proven they can’t be trusted. It will take time to regain the public’s trust.. that shouldn’t be surprising. 
 

edit: You also get out of the news = entertainment business. You engage in thorough reporting and cite reliable, vetted sources. You acknowledge opposing viewpoints without thinly veiled swipes.

The whole truth in reporting, or lack thereof, has done substantial damage to credibility of individuals, the media, and organizations. My old favorite covid death was the dude killed on a motorcycle in Florida. But that has been usurped by a firearm murder/suicide in Colorado listed as covid deaths. I'm pretty sure covid kills people but why go so far off the logic reservation to run up the numbers?

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2 hours ago, TreeA10 said:

I'm pretty sure covid kills people but why go so far off the logic reservation to run up the numbers?

Money and power. I understand how some groups profit from continued hysteria and terror, but I’m not smart enough to really understand how others are benefiting from all this. 
 

Ironically.. investigative journalism and watch dog groups filled that role—although, I guess now they are just labeled conspiracy theorists. 

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11 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

The point is that it completely disrupts the very obvious narrative being pushed that "covid can get anyone." It's bullshit. A couple kids and a couple healthy people under the age of 40 die and their deaths are used as some sort of representation of why everybody is supposed to be terrified of this disease.

 

That's the lie. Some people, maybe you, simply can't accept the fact that others just don't care about covid. There's a vaccine, if you want to protect yourself, if you're fat, if you're old, if you have cancer, if there's any reason why you're at a higher risk, get it. So what the fuck else is there left to care about? 

 

What exactly is the point of these articles? So and so died, this 14 year old got sick, these 30-year-olds thought they were fine and then they got covid and died, what is the point? The point is to scare people into getting the vaccine. With misrepresented statistics. The point is to say *actually you're wrong, this disease is incredibly dangerous to you if you're young and healthy, and here's a bunch of examples of how risky this whole thing is*. It's using fear to motivate a desired action. Because the truth doesn't support the mandate.

 

I don't know anybody that is happy that fat people or old people are dying from this disease, but the conversation isn't about covid, it's about compelled behavior, vaccine mandates. So it's relevant if they had comorbidities because their death is no longer an obvious justification for government compulsion.

Ok. I can understand and appreciate your point about left leaning media pushing the “fear porn”. Sensationalism and outrage sells. That’s the world we live in. I think most who engage here consider themselves thinking human beings & regardless of political tilt, are looking to sift through the chaff & find something a little closer to the truth. Along those lines, there are plenty of right leaning sources and go in the complete opposite direction, discounting any threat at all and insisting society should move on, unencumbered by any need to bend itself to the realities of this virus at all (curiously, while also making the case that this was a brilliant bio-weapon, released by a China on the brink of world domination).  I think it’s safe to say that the truth lies somewhere in between those extremes. It’s also a safe bet that CNN and FOX won’t be losing their influence anytime soon, and individuals who value critical thought will have to share their world with those less adept at the process. 
 

You indirectly asked the question: why, if I am vaccinated/protected, do I care what others do wrt vaccination/masking/etc? Well, I’ll tell you & I do not intend to be condescending or smug here at all. Despite a metric fuck ton of misinformation to the contrary, vaccines, while not perfect, make you many times less likely to contract COVID. If you DO happen to have a breakthrough case, being vaccinated means you are less likely to spread the virus to others. Here is just one of many studies: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/10/13/do-coronavirus-vaccines-prevent-transmission-of-the-virus 

You may argue otherwise, but you are highly unlikely to convince me that the vaccines are not efficacious, nor are you likely to convince me that they are unsafe. So why do I care if you’re vaccinated? Because I may have to sit next to you on an airplane for nine hours. I may have to shop in the same supermarket where you fingered the peaches (sts) fifteen minutes earlier. I may have to work in the same office as you. I may have to stand in line at the DMV with you. You get the idea. Now, being a relatively young, fit, healthy person, am I worried about a severe or life threatening case of COVID-19? Not particularly. But I have a non-vaccinated child under 12 at home who I am worried about. I have an immunocompromised parent whom I see often that I am worried about. I have a grandmother about to turn 100 who I am worried about and who’s upcoming party I would dearly like to attend.
 

So, yes I do care if you are vaccinated because your chances of having an infection are less, thereby reducing the chance you will infect me. If you ARE infected and vaccinated, your chances of spreading your infection to me are STILL much lower. 

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12 hours ago, MCO said:

I think most people accept that fact. Obvious extremists on both sides. It’s just the callousness of not caring enough about those at risk in the population to not get the shot and help limit it’s spread. I’m not for mandating it. I do think using what used to be the arguments crazy anti vaxxers used but that are now mainstream to not get a shot is caring more about yourself than others, but that’s your choice. If I’m lucky enough to live to be 70+ I hope the generations behind us care more about us than we do of our elders.

The vast majority of those with comorbidities are self-induced. If they don't care enough about themselves to resolve their own situation, why should I be compelled to help them potentially putting myself at risk receiving a "vaccine" that doesn't prevent you from getting the virus, doesn't prevent you from spreading the virus, and has no long term history of known side effects because it still has over a year to complete testing?

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We watched three episodes of "Dope Sick" on Hulu over the past week, pretty eye-opening at the relationship between big pharma and the FDA.

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1 hour ago, Prozac said:

Ok. I can understand and appreciate your point about left leaning media pushing the “fear porn”. Sensationalism and outrage sells. That’s the world we live in. I think most who engage here consider themselves thinking human beings & regardless of political tilt, are looking to sift through the chaff & find something a little closer to the truth. Along those lines, there are plenty of right leaning sources and go in the complete opposite direction, discounting any threat at all and insisting society should move on, unencumbered by any need to bend itself to the realities of this virus at all (curiously, while also making the case that this was a brilliant bio-weapon, released by a China on the brink of world domination).  I think it’s safe to say that the truth lies somewhere in between those extremes. It’s also a safe bet that CNN and FOX won’t be losing their influence anytime soon, and individuals who value critical thought will have to share their world with those less adept at the process. 
 

You indirectly asked the question: why, if I am vaccinated/protected, do I care what others do wrt vaccination/masking/etc? Well, I’ll tell you & I do not intend to be condescending or smug here at all. Despite a metric fuck ton of misinformation to the contrary, vaccines, while not perfect, make you many times less likely to contract COVID. If you DO happen to have a breakthrough case, being vaccinated means you are less likely to spread the virus to others. Here is just one of many studies: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/10/13/do-coronavirus-vaccines-prevent-transmission-of-the-virus 

You may argue otherwise, but you are highly unlikely to convince me that the vaccines are not efficacious, nor are you likely to convince me that they are unsafe. So why do I care if you’re vaccinated? Because I may have to sit next to you on an airplane for nine hours. I may have to shop in the same supermarket where you fingered the peaches (sts) fifteen minutes earlier. I may have to work in the same office as you. I may have to stand in line at the DMV with you. You get the idea. Now, being a relatively young, fit, healthy person, am I worried about a severe or life threatening case of COVID-19? Not particularly. But I have a non-vaccinated child under 12 at home who I am worried about. I have an immunocompromised parent whom I see often that I am worried about. I have a grandmother about to turn 100 who I am worried about and who’s upcoming party I would dearly like to attend.
 

So, yes I do care if you are vaccinated because your chances of having an infection are less, thereby reducing the chance you will infect me. If you ARE infected and vaccinated, your chances of spreading your infection to me are STILL much lower. 

Agreed with the first part. I'm vaccinated and against mandates, so obviously I agree that the truth is in the middle. I'm sympathetic to the individuals who fell for the right wing conspiracy theories regarding COVID vaccines for the same reason I was sympathetic to the individuals who fell for the left wing conspiracy theories regarding policing and minorities in the US. A simple reality is most americans, even many highly educated ones, do not have the skills required to sift through data that is intentionally misrepresented to them by seemingly authoritative sources.

Well I can understand your position regarding other people being vaccinated, and I certainly agree that the vaccines have some effect on transmission, I believe the threshold for a mandate is very high, and the vaccines do not meet that. Pre-delta you could at least make a solid case, but the rates of transmission amongst the vaccinated in the Delta environment are no longer reduced enough to justify a mandate in my opinion. All it's going to do is slow down the inevitable, and looking at the numbers, not by much. Unfortunately a lot of the studies that show efficacy against Delta transmission are measuring a few months after vaccination, subsequently the efficacy against transmission drops quite dramatically. The vaccines do, however, continue to stave off severe hospitalization or death, but that brings us right back to "if you're worried, get the vaccine."

Much like the flu, and unlike measles, there isn't going to be herd immunity granted by widespread vaccination to the Covid-19. It's a bummer, but there are many bummers in life.

A small nitpic, but being on a plane for 9 hours is one of the safest places you can be. I don't believe there are many documented cases of spread from air traffic. Bleed air and whatnot.

 

A big nitpic, unless your kid has a very severe underlying condition that you just left out of your post, being worried about him or her getting covid would only make sense if you already kept them in a protective bubble 24/7. It is simply a statistical reality that covid does not represent a threat to children. Is one of the most heavily supported conclusions, bar none. And it is example number one of the fear mongering you reference to the beginning of your post.

 

In fact, it's a fairly easy way to immediately suss out whether someone talking about the virus is intentionally full of shit or not. Anyone advocating for the mandatory vaccination of children, using the safety of children as justification, either has no idea what they are talking about or know exactly what they are lying about.

 

On a more interesting and philosophical level, we now have a great case study in *why* mandates are bad. It kind of goes to the entire argument supporting Liberty in general. Some of us, atheist or otherwise unconcerned with a higher power, support systems of Liberty because at the end of the day they just work better. A bunch of people on the left are going to spend the next few years figuring out what they did wrong and how to craft a better mandate, but instead they should be asking themselves why they thought mandates were the best way to get it done in the first place. Clearly they aren't, but I think to admit that only very specific, and very few policies can be successfully turned into a mandate would undermine their entire long range goal of widespread "social progress," which will most certainly require many, many mandates.

 

Thanks for the honest reply.

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31 minutes ago, Blue said:

https://rumble.com/vnouq3-twitter-user-video-showing-the-shifting-narrative-in-vaccine-efficacy.html

This video has been making the rounds, a 2 minute review of the ever-shifting narrative on vaccine effectiveness.

Snips of headlines flashing by too quickly to read, and all of them completely without context. But the numbers counted down as classical music increased in tempo and volume. So that must mean something. 

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I think the reality that often gets missed in these discussions is that, for the vast majority of all us little "cogs in the economic machine," the Covd pandemic is over.  We've moved on.

The contractor I hired to do some remodeling didn't care about masks or vaccine status, and neither did anyone on his crew.  The cared about getting the job done, getting paid, and moving onto the next job.

When I took a business trip to one of our industrial sites, the factory leadership stressed all the different covid mitigation measures that were in play (masks, plexiglass shields, etc).  When it came down to getting on the plant floor, the mechanics and technicians gave a decent effort to wear masks, but the cumbersome plexiglass shields stayed in the corner, where they belonged.  They were too busy getting work done.

The current administration is trying to shoe-horn in this vaccine mandate, and I'm sure the threat of the mandate has driven more people to get the jab.  But the reality is that, as soon as the actual mandate is officially published (whenever that is), it'll get dragged down into the courts and never again see the light of day.  Those companies that got all kinds of press when they mandated the jab (United Airlines, etc) will eventually drop the mandate, with little fanfare.

There are various entities out there that benefit from a never-ending pandemic.  They'll continue to try to keep the narrative and propaganda flowing.

For the rest of us, we've all moved on.

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I have mixed feelings on government mandates. I agree that, although supported by precedent, they are rather heavy handed. On the flip side, the Biden mandate appears to have largely worked, even though it has yet to go into effect. My employer has seen rates go from the upper 60% range to ~90% in the last several weeks. From a purely political perspective, if you’re Biden & you believe your approval rating/chances for re-election rest on beating COVID, it makes good sense. I agree that it also raises many questions regarding personal freedoms. 
 

Business on the other hand, should have every right to mandate vaccination if they believe it makes a good business case. The travel and hospitality industry in particular has good reason for wanting employees vaccinated. Other businesses do as well since COVID strains can be highly contagious and take swaths of their employees away from being productive for weeks at a time. Anti-employer vaccine mandate mandates like the one in Texas are absolutely stupid & go against traditional conservative values. 
 

As far as being concerned about unvaccinated kids, I don’t think that many of us are worried that our children will be hobbled or killed by the virus. What I am worried about is taking my kid out of school for weeks at a time or, worse yet, schools closing down completely, which could happen as a result of a major outbreak. The LAST thing I want to see is another year spent trying to help my kid deal with on-line schooling. 

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The decision to impose a mandate should be a very carefully considered one, and IMO you really only have grounds for a mandate if you can answer "yes" to the following questions:

1. Does the disease in question pose a grave threat?

2. Does the vaccine do an extremely good job of protecting people and preventing transmission?

3. Is the vaccine safe?

 

So far those answers seem to be:

1. Only for very specific demographics

2. Yes and no

3. Probably  

 

These are very shaky grounds for a mandate especially considering the second widespread variant of this disease we encountered was able to take most of our vaccination assumptions and throw them in the dumpster.  But as usual, Democrats want to jump to telling people what to do.  It is their default state--using government coercion to solve perceived problems.  
 

But they always fail to take human nature into the equation.  When you censor something it'll just make it more popular. When you say everyone has to do something, some people are going to not do it just because fuck you.  And I love that. Do I still think it's a bad risk calculation not to get the vaccine? Yes.  But we really really really need to figure out as a society a way to have the emotional maturity to hold two thoughts in our brains at the same time:

-Getting the vaccine is a good idea

-Trying to Force it on people is a very bad idea

 

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1 hour ago, Pooter said:

These are very shaky grounds for a mandate especially considering the second widespread variant of this disease we encountered was able to take most of our vaccination assumptions and throw them in the dumpster.  But as usual, Democrats want to jump to telling people what to do.  It is their default state--using government coercion to solve perceived problems.  
 

But they always fail to take human nature into the equation.  When you censor something it'll just make it more popular. When you say everyone has to do something, some people are going to not do it just because fuck you.  And I love that. Do I still think it's a bad risk calculation not to get the vaccine? Yes.  But we really really really need to figure out as a society a way to have the emotional maturity to hold two thoughts in our brains at the same time:

-Getting the vaccine is a good idea

-Trying to Force it on people is a very bad idea

 

You really are not as different politically from many of us. Patriots rise up.

 

9 hours ago, Blue said:

https://rumble.com/vnouq3-twitter-user-video-showing-the-shifting-narrative-in-vaccine-efficacy.html

This video has been making the rounds, a 2 minute review of the ever-shifting narrative on vaccine effectiveness.

Spread that site. Odysee has its limitations, but is another alternative. BitChute seems to have gone the sellout route by allowing the U.K. to censor them. YouTube will die.

 

7 hours ago, Prozac said:

Anti-employer vaccine mandate mandates like the one in Texas are absolutely stupid & go against traditional conservative values.

While on its face, it would seem to go against "conservative values". You must consider this. The Texas Governor's executive order (along with his call for the state legislature to make a statute solidifying the order's intent) merely prohibits entities from requiring a covid drug upon those which are subordinate to the entity. In all "conservative" thought (ironically, more classically liberal than anything!) the individuals' freedom as humans are higher than an entity, in many cases, a business. I think what the Governor did does protect liberty of the humans of Texas (and those who work within). We have to care about people and their livelihoods more than an entity's ability to mandate a medical procedure if we are going to care about liberty.

I reject the GOP, I reject Neo-conservatives, I reject the DNC and those aligned. All are within the same camp.

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2 hours ago, Pooter said:


The decision to impose a mandate should be a very carefully considered one, and IMO you really only have grounds for a mandate if you can answer "yes" to the following questions:

1. Does the disease in question pose a grave threat?

2. Does the vaccine do an extremely good job of protecting people and preventing transmission?

3. Is the vaccine safe?

 

So far those answers seem to be:

1. Only for very specific demographics

2. Yes and no

3. Probably  

 

These are very shaky grounds for a mandate especially considering the second widespread variant of this disease we encountered was able to take most of our vaccination assumptions and throw them in the dumpster.  But as usual, Democrats want to jump to telling people what to do.  It is their default state--using government coercion to solve perceived problems.  
 

But they always fail to take human nature into the equation.  When you censor something it'll just make it more popular. When you say everyone has to do something, some people are going to not do it just because you.  And I love that. Do I still think it's a bad risk calculation not to get the vaccine? Yes.  But we really really really need to figure out as a society a way to have the emotional maturity to hold two thoughts in our brains at the same time:

-Getting the vaccine is a good idea

-Trying to Force it on people is a very bad idea

 

If COVID19 were a grave threat to all and the vaccine worked well, you wouldn’t have to mandate it…

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12 hours ago, glockenspiel said:

If COVID19 were a grave threat to all and the vaccine worked well, you wouldn’t have to mandate it…

Right.. because everyone has behaved completely rationally for the last year and a half. 

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If COVID19 were a grave threat to all and the vaccine worked well, you wouldn’t have to mandate it…

The data coming from Alex Berensons latest interview on Joe Rogan was pretty damning on the subject.

We need boosters apparently.


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Here is how poorly the mandate is being managed...in the words of the folks I talked to at Robins AFB, it has turned into a witch hunt. 

They are actively mandating EVERYONE get the vaccine regardless of circumstance including those with established December and January separation dates.  Take the shot or be extended, subject to UCMJ and change class of discharge.

Numerous other retiring folks at Robins with established terminal dates starting within the next few days have been told, get the jab or retirement is delayed, UCMJ and change class of discharge. 

I've been vaccinated but don't believe in mandates....this is pure lunacy going after these folks.

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7 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

Here is how poorly the mandate is being managed...in the words of the folks I talked to at Robins AFB, it has turned into a witch hunt. 

They are actively mandating EVERYONE get the vaccine regardless of circumstance including those with established December and January separation dates.  Take the shot or be extended, subject to UCMJ and change class of discharge.

Numerous other retiring folks at Robins with established terminal dates starting within the next few days have been told, get the jab or retirement is delayed, UCMJ and change class of discharge. 

I've been vaccinated but don't believe in mandates....this is pure lunacy going after these folks.

That's nuts, but par for the course for the covid-crazies. What will you be doing about it? Will you speak up? :usa:

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That is the problem. There is no allowable gray area - Strictly black and white. This is almost solely because of the White House and how they've handled this. 

If you've had covid and have the anti-bodies, per the Israeli study of over 2 million people who were either vaccinated or caught covid, those with natural anti-bodies were between 6 and 13 times less likely to get covid a second time than the vaccinated were likely to catch it. Why should they be forced to get the vaccine?

Additionally, medical exemptions are being treated as anything such with the only available exemption, at least in California, being that you have had a documented adverse reaction to an ingredient in the vaccine. The California Medical Board sent out letters to all California certified physicians stating such and informing the physicians that any who disobeyed would face possible loss of licensure. 

I presented my employer, a major defense contractor, a German study that showed a 4% increase in occurrence and/or severity for seizures for those diagnosed with epilepsy and was told that doesn't qualify for an exemption and I just recovered from covid last week and have demonstrated anti-bodies. 

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2 hours ago, Pooter said:

Right.. because everyone has behaved completely rationally for the last year and a half. 

Let’s not soil personal bodily autonomy for the individual over some else’s prior irrational behavior. 

Also, I generally agree with your earlier sentiment but toss in a bit more skepticism:

-the BionTech-Pfizer vaccine may be a good idea for some people to take

Point being, everyone has a different situation and risk factors. One size likely doesn’t fit all.

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2 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Here is how poorly the mandate is being managed...in the words of the folks I talked to at Robins AFB, it has turned into a witch hunt. 

They are actively mandating EVERYONE get the vaccine regardless of circumstance including those with established December and January separation dates.  Take the shot or be extended, subject to UCMJ and change class of discharge.

Numerous other retiring folks at Robins with established terminal dates starting within the next few days have been told, get the jab or retirement is delayed, UCMJ and change class of discharge. 

I've been vaccinated but don't believe in mandates....this is pure lunacy going after these folks.

Kinda fun finding out how many people are simply concerned with the authority to control others in a society, isn't it? Compliance is the only discernable goal.

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I have officially come full circle based on data. I not sure if I still support current vaccination efforts. All of this data I found - wasn’t given to me by a biased news source.

1) COVID spread is unimpeded by vaccination within months. Numerous studies show that:

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You’ll see that for those age 40-80+, vaccinated folks actually were MORE likely to have the virus.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1022238/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_39.pdf

Source: UK health surveillance. You can look at last week or the next week as well. This is not cherry picked - the data shows the same numbers multiple weeks in a row. Check out the other weeks, you’ll see similar data.

2nd Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

 

2) The rate of hospitalization and death is similar to that of the flu. No shit. And I used to make fun of everyone who said that.

COVID hospitalizations:

E2FAAA9A-AEBC-4B23-9429-546BE3B5851F.thumb.jpeg.ece5e5faa497f3239a760fb63c58226c.jpeg

COVID DeathsDD8A97B4-2705-4AA7-8578-62150E7D034E.thumb.jpeg.5e00c813e971494794b19e54f37a5723.jpeg

Source: same as above

CDC data on flu hospitalizations/mortality per 100k (couldn’t crop it well on mobile):

A312A95A-BEFE-4BED-8960-22B3D288C7D6.thumb.jpeg.8edc6e7875db9d9fdcab46ae9ae054f3.jpeg

F1F188D8-115F-4681-9C80-5320DBE236AD.thumb.jpeg.2f89ed13c523b77bf1dfacd603504e5c.jpeg

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018.htm

 

So for an average person age 18-49, your risk of hospitalization for COVID is somewhere in the realm of 15-20 per 100000. For 2017-18 flu, the hospitalization rate for that age group was nearly twice as high at 36 per 100000. For death of those 18-49, its maybe twice as bad for Covid, around 2 per 100k, whereas flu was only 0.8. I am starting to lose any motivation to continue vaccination efforts whatsoever for those that are not at risk.

It doesn’t and won’t provide herd immunity. And people without risk factors that are normal ages don’t need it.

The counterpoint will be that it’s for the old. Well, first of all, that counterpoint is already invalid because getting the COVID vaccine as a 40 year old male does literally nothing to protect the old as it has been demonstrated to have virtually no effect on transmission after a few months. So a mandate for those under 50 I think still makes 0 sense.

 

But let’s look at it for those 50+. Hospitalization rate for COVID for those 50+ is on the order of 80-100 per 100000. For 17-18 flu for those over 50 it was on the order of 500+ per 100000. Wtf. For deaths, COVID is on the order of 80 per 100000. Flu was slightly lower, maybe 50 per 100000. But they are way closer than initially thought.

BL: COVID actually has turned into nothing more than a bad flu. And a bad flu that is actually easier on children than the actual bad flu. It’s not even a hyperbole. And we’re discussing additional mandatory boosters for healthy folks age 0-30. Just wanted to say that the data has changed my mind, significantly. It’s actually almost maddening.

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I have been thinking about it and the difference is the infectivity or R0. COVID is significantly more infectious, maybe an order of magnitude higher.

So from an individual risk perspective, it’s not significantly worse than the flu.

But the total number of infections, hospitalizations, and deaths will be an order of magnitude higher.

Still don’t think that justifies mandates necessarily.

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