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30 minutes ago, torqued said:

I'll ask, once again, for you to specify the "experts" to which you a deferring all substantiations for this argument. Who said this is not happening with COVID?

So the reason we have an increasing amount of variants is not because viruses mutate and create branches on the genomic tree, but because scientists are just looking for and finding previously existing related genomes? That makes no sense. Again, who is saying this?

The answer to your question is in the link I provided. You should read the entire paper because you must not have. Imperfect vaccines that only lesson the symptoms, drive the mutations which benefit from virulence without the cost to the host. It's the same process which drives antibiotic resistant bacteria.

You get a imperfect vaccine created for an unknown virus genome,  and you may not know you're sick when you get COVID. Viruses mutations that the vaccine wasn't tailor made specifically for are allowed to replicate and spread unbeknownst to you.

I get a COVID infection, know I'm sick, take the appropriate therapeutics and measures while my body creates anti-bodies for the exact genome that I am infected with.

Here are some "experts" you can refer specifically to in the future:

 

 

Dude you are too based for this forum. Thank God for whistleblowers. Snowden included.

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31 minutes ago, BrightNeptune said:

Snowden should be held as a national hero. Everyone should read his book.

Had Snowden only released information about possibly illegal wiretapping then you might have an argument.

Instead, he downloaded hundreds, possibly thousands of highly classified information on US sources and methods.  Gifting them to Russia.

 

Snowden is a traitor, he deserves to share a cell with Robert Hansen.  For life.

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36 minutes ago, JimNtexas said:

Had Snowden only released information about possibly illegal wiretapping then you might have an argument.

Instead, he downloaded hundreds, possibly thousands of highly classified information on US sources and methods.  Gifting them to Russia.

 

Snowden is a traitor, he deserves to share a cell with Robert Hansen.  For life.

You have no idea what you are talking about and just made that up.

 

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5 hours ago, torqued said:

I'll ask, once again, for you to specify the "experts" to which you a deferring all substantiations for this argument. Who said this is not happening with COVID?

So the reason we have an increasing amount of variants is not because viruses mutate and create branches on the genomic tree, but because scientists are just looking for and finding previously existing related genomes? That makes no sense. Again, who is saying this?

The answer to your question is in the link I provided. You should read the entire paper because you must not have. Imperfect vaccines that only lesson the symptoms, drive the mutations which benefit from virulence without the cost to the host. It's the same process which drives antibiotic resistant bacteria.

You get a imperfect vaccine created for an unknown virus genome,  and you may not know you're sick when you get COVID. Viruses mutations that the vaccine wasn't tailor made specifically for are allowed to replicate and spread unbeknownst to you.

I get a COVID infection, know I'm sick, take the appropriate therapeutics and measures while my body creates anti-bodies for the exact genome that I am infected with.

Here are some "experts" you can refer specifically to in the future:

 

 

Maybe you before calling people out for not reading the giant homework assignment you so graciously gave us, you should read it yourself.

From the discussion section:

"Our data do not demonstrate that vaccination was responsible for the evolution of hyperpathogenic strains of MDV, and we may never know for sure why they evolved in the first place."

It turns out, as always, research findings aren't quite a simple as the google-able sound bites you search in order to try to win internet arguments. Having actually done research before helps you know that findings are always couched in caveats, statistical uncertainty, and specificity of their application.

But by all means, let's take snippets from the abstract of a research paper on a disease in chickens and extrapolate the results as gospel to a completely different virus in a completely different species with a completely different type of vaccine. 

 

Here's an article from some experts: professors of microbiology and epidemiology (good enough for you?) And it is actually about covid.. in humans.. not a different disease in chickens, and they talk about how the large population of unvaccinated is the key driver of mutations.

The argument boils down to this: A mutation is a random event that is extremely unlikely to make the virus more contagious or virulent. Even if it does, it's extremely unlikely that mutation will be passed on to someone else.  This is called the population bottleneck.  The population bottleneck helps prevent new mutations emerge because the odds are stacked against the virus.  By having a large portion of the population remain unvaccinated we are essentially giving the virus an infinite number of dice rolls and it will eventually hit   the jackpot, 

The article even talks about your chicken scenario, but says it isn't even relevant at this point because the virus is still running rampant and unchecked all over the world, propelled by the unvaccinated population.  

https://theconversation.com/massive-numbers-of-new-covid-19-infections-not-vaccines-are-the-main-driver-of-new-coronavirus-variants-166882

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4 hours ago, Pooter said:

Maybe you before calling people out for not reading the giant homework assignment you so graciously gave us, you should read it yourself.

From the discussion section:

"Our data do not demonstrate that vaccination was responsible for the evolution of hyperpathogenic strains of MDV, and we may never know for sure why they evolved in the first place."

It turns out, as always, research findings aren't quite a simple as the google-able sound bites you search in order to try to win internet arguments. Having actually done research before helps you know that findings are always couched in caveats, statistical uncertainty, and specificity of their application.

But by all means, let's take snippets from the abstract of a research paper on a disease in chickens and extrapolate the results as gospel to a completely different virus in a completely different species with a completely different type of vaccine. 

 

Here's an article from some experts: professors of microbiology and epidemiology (good enough for you?) And it is actually about covid.. in humans.. not a different disease in chickens, and they talk about how the large population of unvaccinated is the key driver of mutations.

The argument boils down to this: A mutation is a random event that is extremely unlikely to make the virus more contagious or virulent. Even if it does, it's extremely unlikely that mutation will be passed on to someone else.  This is called the population bottleneck.  The population bottleneck helps prevent new mutations emerge because the odds are stacked against the virus.  By having a large portion of the population remain unvaccinated we are essentially giving the virus an infinite number of dice rolls and it will eventually hit   the jackpot, 

The article even talks about your chicken scenario, but says it isn't even relevant at this point because the virus is still running rampant and unchecked all over the world, propelled by the unvaccinated population.  

https://theconversation.com/massive-numbers-of-new-covid-19-infections-not-vaccines-are-the-main-driver-of-new-coronavirus-variants-166882

Thank you. I asked multiple times for a references and you finally produced an evolutionary biologist and an infectious disease epidemiologist. Given your distaste for homework, I'm sure it was an unpleasant experience to actually find a supporting hypothesis. The guys you are quoted are probably smart guys. However, they didn't actually do any research in the editorial piece you're quoting. They just linked to the research of others...

Reasearch that, by the way, is "couched in caveats, statistical uncertainty, and specificity of their application" 😄

It is also important to note that patterns of within-host evolution may differ in individuals with vaccine or infection-induced immunity. Whether antigenic escape mutations arise and are selected within individuals with prior immune exposure remains an open question. Understanding the degree to which within-host evolution is shaped by vaccine and infection-induced immunity, both within-host and globally, will be critical for evaluating the pace of SARS-CoV-2 evolution in the future.

That means that the bottlenecks can occur in both vaccine and natural immunity, and that the science is unclear. Certainly not clear enough to proceed with an experimental vaccine with so many questions surrounding it. There is evidence to support multiple theories. The CDC says we have over 83% of the population with COVID-19 immunity present. What would you like to see? 100%?

Given the language you're prone to using when posting on the subject ("The virus is still running rampant and unchecked all over the world!"), I highly encourage you to first watch the video I earlier posted regarding "Mass Hysteria" and "Delusions of Totalitarian Psychosis".

Then I'll just ask you this: What is it you're hoping to achieve? I don't want to waste my time down here in the weeds unless I know exactly where you're headed with this. Maybe you're just being contrarian and enjoy the game. Maybe you honestly believe a global forced vaccination plan will make the world a better place.

If you wouldn't mind, please describe in a reasonable amount of detail, what your desired end state is, and how we achieve it.

 

 

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Pfizer and BioNTech says vaccines are safe for children and seeking emergency authorization by the end of the month. Really? Remember when Boeing engineers at the FAA said the Boeing 737 Max was completely safe?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pfizer-biontech-say-covid-19-vaccine-is-safe-for-young-children-generates-immune-response-11632134701

Dr. Robert Malone, the inventor of mRNA vaccine technology, circulated this study this morning.

If you have kids, it's worth reading this.

Why are we vaccinating children? 14 Sept 2021:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221475002100161X#!

First, where is the data justifying inoculation for children, much less most people under forty? It's not found on Fig. 1, where the most vulnerable are almost exclusively the elderly with many comorbidities [83]. Yet, in the USA, Pfizer has been approved to inoculate children 12–17, and the goal is to accomplish this by the start of the school year in the Fall. As stated previously, there are plans to inoculate children as young as six months starting before the end of 2021.

What is the rush for a group at essentially zero risks [84]? Given that the inoculations were tested only for a few months, only very short-term adverse effects could be obtained. It is questionable how well even these short-term effects obtained from the clinical trials reflect the short-term effects from the initial mass inoculation results reported in VAERS [84].

The injection goes two steps further than the wild virus because 1) it contains the instructions for making the spike protein, which several experiments are showing can cause vascular and other forms of damage, and 2) it bypasses many front-line defenses of the innate immune system to enter the bloodstream directly in part. Unlike the virus example, the injection ensures there will always be some combustible materials on the floor, even if there are no other toxic exposures or behaviors. In other words, the spike protein and the surrounding LNP are toxins with the potential to cause myriad short-, mid-, and long-term adverse health effects even in the absence of other contributing factors! Where and when these effects occur will depend on the biodistribution of the injected material. Pfizer’s own biodistribution studies have shown the injected material can be found in myriad critical organs throughout the body, leading to the possibility of multi-organ failure. And these studies were from a single injection. Multiple injections and booster shots may have cumulative effects on organ distributions of inoculant!

The COVID-19 reported deaths are people who died with COVID-19, not necessarily from COVID-19. Likewise, the VAERS deaths are people who have died following inoculation, not necessarily from inoculation.

On the former issue, CDC admits that ˜94 % of the reported deaths could have been attributed to one or more of the comorbidities, thereby reducing the CDC's numbers attributed strictly to COVID-19 to about 35,000 for all age groups. Given the number of high false positives from the high amplification cycle PCR tests, and the willingness of healthcare professionals to attribute death to COVID-19 in the absence of tests or sometimes even with negative PCR tests, this 35,000 number is probably highly inflated as well.

 

 

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The cure is worse than the disease.
Obesity is the #1 comorbidity - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41366-020-0640-5
The CDC just released research that says Body Mass Index in kids doubled during pandemic, making them even more susceptible to a wide rage of illnesses.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037a3.htm?s_cid=mm7037a3_w
 

Rate of increase doubled, not BMI itself. For BMI to double in a child, that would require a 100% weight gain with no growth in height.


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33 minutes ago, CaptainMorgan said:


Rate of increase doubled, not BMI itself. For BMI to double in a child, that would require a 100% weight gain with no growth in height.


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Correct. I did make a mistake in the way I worded it. I didn't intend to say these kids doubled in weight. That wouldn't make sense. My mistake.

But here's the important part:

In a longitudinal cohort of 432,302 persons aged 2–19 years with outpatient visits, the monthly rate of increase in BMI nearly doubled during the COVID-19 pandemic compared with a prepandemic period. The estimated proportion of persons aged 2–19 years with obesity in this care-seeking cohort also increased during the pandemic; for example, 19.3% of persons had obesity in August 2019 compared with 22.4% 1 year later. These findings are consistent with a recent study of Kaiser Permanente data that reported significant weight gain and increased obesity prevalence during the pandemic among children and adolescents aged 5–17 years in Southern California (4). The present study is the largest and first geographically diverse analysis to assess the association of the COVID-19 pandemic with BMI and the first to show results by initial BMI category.

Dring March–November 2020, persons with moderate or severe obesity gained on average 1.0 and 1.2 pounds per month, respectively. Weight gain at this rate over 6 months is estimated to result in 6.1 and 7.3pounds, respectively, compared with 2.7 pounds in a person with healthy weight. Accelerated weight gain, especially among children with overweight or obesity, can cause long-lasting metabolic changes that put children at risk for serious and costly co-occurring conditions, such as type 2 diabetes, hypertension, and depression (5,6).

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The National Science Foundation is funding the University of California, Riverside's research into putting mRNA vaccines in your food.

Isn't technology wonderful?

https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2021/09/16/grow-and-eat-your-own-vaccines

The project’s goals, made possible by a $500,000 grant from the National Science Foundation, are threefold: showing that DNA containing the mRNA vaccines can be successfully delivered into the part of plant cells where it will replicate, demonstrating the plants can produce enough mRNA to rival a traditional shot, and finally, determining the right dosage. 

“Ideally, a single plant would produce enough mRNA to vaccinate a single person,” said Juan Pablo Giraldo, an associate professor in UCR’s Department of Botany and Plant Sciences who is leading the research, done in collaboration with scientists from UC San Diego and Carnegie Mellon University. 

https://nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_ID=2134535&HistoricalAwards=false

"This project aims to enable rapid manufacturing of oral vaccines against viruses in plants without the need of specialized equipment or skills. Current vaccine manufacturing technologies need expensive laboratory facilities and cold-chain delivery systems that result in slow and unequal access of vaccines to people. This study combines ideas and approaches from the engineering of particles, chloroplast genetics, and plant molecular farming, to turn chloroplasts of edible plant leaves like spinach or lettuce into biomanufacturing devices for vaccine production. "

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On 9/20/2021 at 7:00 PM, BrightNeptune said:

Snowden should be held as a national hero. Everyone should read his book.

Snowden is a traitor and should be given the death penalty. If it walks like a traitor, talks like a traitor, and gives secrets to the Russians like a traitor...wait for it...it's a traitor.

That it was so seductive a play that it has obviously duped patriots in the military into thinking he's some sort of national hero speaks to how powerful various elements of the information war are. He played Glenn Greenwald like a fiddle, and if you don't think there is a connection between what we've witnessed happen on the world stage over the last 7-8 years and what he did, you need to get your head checked. And if you're in the military and you think that was the "proper" way to voice a concern, you shouldn't be in a position of any responsibility.

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1 hour ago, ViperMan said:

Snowden is a traitor and should be given the death penalty. If it walks like a traitor, talks like a traitor, and gives secrets to the Russians like a traitor...wait for it...it's a traitor.

That it was so seductive a play that it has obviously duped patriots in the military into thinking he's some sort of national hero speaks to how powerful various elements of the information war are. He played Glenn Greenwald like a fiddle, and if you don't think there is a connection between what we've witnessed happen on the world stage over the last 7-8 years and what he did, you need to get your head checked. And if you're in the military and you think that was the "proper" way to voice a concern, you shouldn't be in a position of any responsibility.

Honest question. What would be a proper way to voice a concern at that level? Do you have any examples that worked?

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4 hours ago, SurelySerious said:


It sure as shit isn’t revealing a broad amount of TS to the entire world.

Ding Ding.....we have a winner.  Amen

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6 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Snowden is a traitor and should be given the death penalty.

No trial, no jury, just straight to the death penalty, eh? Hate to pick on you, brother, but I'm going to challenge ideas I don't agree with. Not for fun, not because I like stepping on toes and getting people worked up, but because I see things that are clearly wrong.

I can think of three instances here in the last week or so of death being the consequence of a perceived crime. Just straight up advocating for execution. One person said he'd dole out the death penalty himself because the unvaccinated didn't deserve hospital treatment. But it's not just here and actually, I think overall the people who frequent this forum are far more reasonable than the public at large.

In Snowden's case, anyone who really wanted to could start with the death of a soldier and create a cause/effect chain of events that would somehow link to Snowden. So offing that a-hole is justified, right? But what would that process look like, and could it be applied elsewhere?

Snowden did a, a caused b, b->c, d, e, f, and then people died. =Traitor. =Death.

Milley did a. a->z. =Traitor. =Death.

Biden =Traitor. =Death.

Racist =Nazi =Death.

The Unvaccinated =Murderers =Death.

Republicans, Democrats, the Rich, etc. More people are wishing death on other individuals and groups due to ideological differences, and the threshold seems to be getting lower. This doesn't end well.

This is related to the earlier vid I posted. Great stuff. Today, you likely consider the idea of "Genocide" hyperbole. At some point in your lifetime, you won't. It happens with Tyranny and the seeds are being planted.

 

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11 hours ago, torqued said:

No trial, no jury, just straight to the death penalty, eh? Hate to pick on you, brother, but I'm going to challenge ideas I don't agree with. Not for fun, not because I like stepping on toes and getting people worked up, but because I see things that are clearly wrong.

I can think of three instances here in the last week or so of death being the consequence of a perceived crime. Just straight up advocating for execution. One person said he'd dole out the death penalty himself because the unvaccinated didn't deserve hospital treatment. But it's not just here and actually, I think overall the people who frequent this forum are far more reasonable than the public at large.

In Snowden's case, anyone who really wanted to could start with the death of a soldier and create a cause/effect chain of events that would somehow link to Snowden. So offing that a-hole is justified, right? But what would that process look like, and could it be applied elsewhere?

Snowden did a, a caused b, b->c, d, e, f, and then people died. =Traitor. =Death.

Milley did a. a->z. =Traitor. =Death.

Biden =Traitor. =Death.

Racist =Nazi =Death.

The Unvaccinated =Murderers =Death.

Republicans, Democrats, the Rich, etc. More people are wishing death on other individuals and groups due to ideological differences, and the threshold seems to be getting lower. This doesn't end well.

This is related to the earlier vid I posted. Great stuff. Today, you likely consider the idea of "Genocide" hyperbole. At some point in your lifetime, you won't. It happens with Tyranny and the seeds are being planted.

 

Only one of those people committed direct treason that has historically been tried as treason. Although the death penalty isn’t the result of a treason crime anymore.

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15 hours ago, arg said:

Honest question. What would be a proper way to voice a concern at that level? Do you have any examples that worked?

"Do we have any examples that worked?" I don't know, but to answer your question with a question: would we? How would you know if there have been successful challenges to things which are otherwise classified to which they have had a moral objection to? If it resulted in a policy change or more restrictive measures put in place does that automatically de-classify what was going on? Nope. But this is a rhetorical exercise. Your question doesn't get us anywhere.

To more directly answer your question, though, you address your supervisors, Congress, and perhaps someone on the outside with "generics". What you certainly don't do is take your unrestricted access, download everything you can get your hands on, flee the US, and then give a data dump to a news reporter while then taking refuge with our #1 or #2 adversary.

Let me ask you this: do you really think Russia is the only place on Earth Snowden could be taking "refuge"? Really? Where does the dude in charge of Wikileaks hide out? There are numerous other nations out there that have non-extradition policies where he could hide out without perma-access to the Kremlin. Pffft. Scoff those who think he's some national hero. Look at the facts. Access to highly classified info. Stole said info. Released said info. Absconded to Russia with said info. He's playing to people's emotions and feelings that Americans shouldn't be spied on. He's using our system against us, thereby having a two-pronged effect.

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11 hours ago, torqued said:

No trial, no jury, just straight to the death penalty, eh? Hate to pick on you, brother, but I'm going to challenge ideas I don't agree with. Not for fun, not because I like stepping on toes and getting people worked up, but because I see things that are clearly wrong.

I can think of three instances here in the last week or so of death being the consequence of a perceived crime. Just straight up advocating for execution. One person said he'd dole out the death penalty himself because the unvaccinated didn't deserve hospital treatment. But it's not just here and actually, I think overall the people who frequent this forum are far more reasonable than the public at large.

In Snowden's case, anyone who really wanted to could start with the death of a soldier and create a cause/effect chain of events that would somehow link to Snowden. So offing that a-hole is justified, right? But what would that process look like, and could it be applied elsewhere?

Snowden did a, a caused b, b->c, d, e, f, and then people died. =Traitor. =Death.

Milley did a. a->z. =Traitor. =Death.

Biden =Traitor. =Death.

Racist =Nazi =Death.

The Unvaccinated =Murderers =Death.

Republicans, Democrats, the Rich, etc. More people are wishing death on other individuals and groups due to ideological differences, and the threshold seems to be getting lower. This doesn't end well.

This is related to the earlier vid I posted. Great stuff. Today, you likely consider the idea of "Genocide" hyperbole. At some point in your lifetime, you won't. It happens with Tyranny and the seeds are being planted.

Perhaps my previous post was incomplete. That said, I did say "death penalty" which presupposes due process and a trial IMO. If I had said "hellfired" I'd be on board with you.

I don't advocate that he is summarily executed without due process. Of course he should be tried. But let's also not stretch the case either and hold any pretense about what Snowden did. He publicly admits to doing everything. I don't think you need any over-wrought A -> B -> C -> Death for Snowden logic to get there. Doing what he did amounts to treason in and of itself:

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title18/part1/chapter115&edition=prelim

Did Bradley Manning deserve the death penalty - certainly not. He's an idiot, and what he did was foolish and I believe came from a place of honest concern. What Snowden did was calculated and executed in precisely such a manner as to undermine our belief in institutions. It was done with the exact purpose to cause people who don't know any better to draw a moral equivalence between the United States and our adversaries. Citizens who think that being a superpower means we don't ever have to get our hands dirty. It's design was to exploit the average American's naiveté about the world, and it continues to do so.

Also, the damage was and IS orders of magnitude greater.

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5 hours ago, Lowspeedhidrag said:

Not a fan of this organization...but they're not wrong. I wonder when they will realize that they've been played this entire time....lol

Screenshot_20210922-094326_Instagram.jpg

For the average supporter? Probably never, those pulling the strings will never allow it (it’s why inner cities never vote red despite the fact that lunatics like Maxine Waters has run Los Angeles into the ground).  For the leadership? They know it’s a ploy, it was never about Black Lives, it was always a vehicle for Marxism. 

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