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1 hour ago, pawnman said:

It's unfortunate, because it means there is literally no way to get them to listen to new information.  

Not true.  Show some good faith and hold accountable those who have lied, then I’m willing to hear new info.  Fire Fauci.  That’s a great starting point for transmission of new info.  Hold accountable some of the many journalists who have engaged in the “noble lie” and attempts to deceive.

When trust is broken, step 1 to restoration is acknowledging the failure. Step 2 is accountability.  Without either of those, we can’t move forward.

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Just read Colin Powel passed from Covid and was fully vaxed.  I read last week some guy who won an emmy who was like 53 passed as well from COVID and vaxed.  Then I also saw a college kid at UGA died as well and was vaxed.  

I live in CO, 24% of all 900 hospitilizations are fully vaxed.  If the other 76% were, would they be in the hospital or is it just bad luck?  CO is one of the most vaxed states yet we are in our 2nd biggest wave.  We also have a city cop suing the city over forced to be vaxed who is not paralyzed.  I know there is a 33 yr old woman in Pittsburgh who also was paralyzed from the vaccine.  I personally know a college girl who was on scholarship and now has the heart inflamation from the vax.  At this point with all the breakthrough/need for boosters cases you can legitimately question the effectivness of shot.

The shot also doesnt end this.  It might help the burden on hospitals but thats really it.

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23 minutes ago, ecugringo said:

Just read Colin Powel passed from Covid and was fully vaxed.  I read last week some guy who won an emmy who was like 53 passed as well from COVID and vaxed.  Then I also saw a college kid at UGA died as well and was vaxed.  

I live in CO, 24% of all 900 hospitilizations are fully vaxed.  If the other 76% were, would they be in the hospital or is it just bad luck?  CO is one of the most vaxed states yet we are in our 2nd biggest wave.  We also have a city cop suing the city over forced to be vaxed who is not paralyzed.  I know there is a 33 yr old woman in Pittsburgh who also was paralyzed from the vaccine.  I personally know a college girl who was on scholarship and now has the heart inflamation from the vax.  At this point with all the breakthrough/need for boosters cases you can legitimately question the effectivness of shot.

The shot also doesnt end this.  It might help the burden on hospitals but thats really it.

He too was suffering from cancer but none of the headlines and only few of the articles mention that. 

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15 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

He too was suffering from cancer but none of the headlines and only few of the articles mention that. 

Yep, he was being treated for multiple myeloma, a type of blood cancer that prohibits the body’s ability to fight infections.

He had a history of prostate cancer as well.

It's also alleged he was suffering from Parkinson's disease.

By the way, people still die from the flu despite being vaccinated for it.  CDC studies show flu shots reduce the risk of illness by between 40% and 60% among the overall population during seasons when most circulating flu viruses are well-matched to those used to make flu vaccines.

Even the CDC admits some people who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 will still get sick because no vaccine is 100% effective.  

But as we know in Powell's case, he had comorbidity issues...

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52 minutes ago, M2 said:

Yep, he was being treated for multiple myeloma, a type of blood cancer that prohibits the body’s ability to fight infections.

He had a history of prostate cancer as well.

It's also alleged he was suffering from Parkinson's disease.

By the way, people still die from the flu despite being vaccinated for it.  CDC studies show flu shots reduce the risk of illness by between 40% and 60% among the overall population during seasons when most circulating flu viruses are well-matched to those used to make flu vaccines.

Even the CDC admits some people who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 will still get sick because no vaccine is 100% effective.  

But as we know in Powell's case, he had comorbidity issues...

Was unaware of Powell's health issues.  The media conveniently left out those details.

We just had covid go through our home.  I'm 40, 160lbs, better health than when I was in the AF from 25-29.  I've been sicker, I know for some it's pretty shitty.  

My company wants everyone to get the shot.  I work remote and visit clients across the US so it's had to really justify.  Not against the shot, I just dont think its the silver bullet some think it is.  

Also, I dont think business travel or office environments will ever be the same again.

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Not true.  Show some good faith and hold accountable those who have lied, then I’m willing to hear new info.  Fire Fauci.  That’s a great starting point for transmission of new info.  Hold accountable some of the many journalists who have engaged in the “noble lie” and attempts to deceive.
When trust is broken, step 1 to restoration is acknowledging the failure. Step 2 is accountability.  Without either of those, we can’t move forward.

Fauci needs way more than fired for what he’s done to this country and the handling of this virus.

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22 hours ago, Pooter said:

Considering his enormous viewership, self-described conservative media company, and the fact that his talking points are reliably echoed all over baseops 6-9 hours after they air, yes. I do. 
 

So when do we get to the part where you make an actual argument.. because so far all I'm seeing is you drawing things out of a hat at random to disagree about.

Shapiro, Charlie Kirk, Turning Point USA, Prague U. et al are all media companies grifting off of real conservatives by acting as a pressure relief / controlled opposition valve that redirects the real conservatives’ energy into putting Israel (the contemporary nation-state) first, U.S.A. last while advancing globohomo domestically (and abroad).

On it’s face, what Shapiro says may sound “conservative”, but look a little deeper and you’ll see what his real goal (and his puppet masters’ goal) is.

We’re in an information war. No different than how “liberal” got hijacked as a word to mean a full blown Marxist agenda. I’d love for classical liberalism to flourish again. But the word is tainted in so many minds.

What do you think about Israel?

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13 hours ago, brabus said:

And how many of those patients with regret sucking on a ventilator have multiple comorbidities and are generally unhealthy? The data says 95%. I bet they do have regret, as the vaccine would have been a less risky choice for them. Additionally, let’s not dismiss all the people who have regrets of getting the vaccine…it’s a large number, certainly anecdotally no less than heartstrings-pulling news stories like this one. 

Who the fuck cares if they had comorbidities? Seriously. There’s a lot of fat/diabetic/immunocompromised/otherwise unhealthy people in this country. If they would’ve survived had it not been for COVID, why does it matter? Are their lives worth less because they’re fat? Sorry, but I’m not ok living in a society that discounts the value of human life based on general health. One of the things that makes us human is having some compassion for one another, regardless of Darwinian attributes. If we’re willing to write off the weak and the sick, then we’re no more evolved than fucking gorillas. 

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4 hours ago, Guardian said:


Fauci needs way more than fired for what he’s done to this country and the handling of this virus.

CN for those of us who don't want to listen to 3 hours of assumed BS from a spy-fiction author?

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12 hours ago, herkbier said:

It’s actually very easy.. you start with being truthful in everything you say. You have integrity. You admit everywhere you’ve failed to do that. You don’t tell white lies of omission for political reasons or to try and steer people one way or the other. 
 

Those institutions have proven they can’t be trusted. It will take time to regain the public’s trust.. that shouldn’t be surprising. 
 

edit: You also get out of the news = entertainment business. You engage in thorough reporting and cite reliable, vetted sources. You acknowledge opposing viewpoints without thinly veiled swipes.

Shack. Just stop lying. 

 

The institutions haven't lost wide scale trust because people just suddenly stopped trusting institutions. On the contrary, people just started catching the institutions telling lies. It's a completely rational survival instinct to stop trusting someone you catch in an overt lie. And considering the response from the institutions when caught is to double down, it's entirely predictable.

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54 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Who the fuck cares if they had comorbidities? Seriously. There’s a lot of fat/diabetic/immunocompromised/otherwise unhealthy people in this country. If they would’ve survived had it not been for COVID, why does it matter? Are their lives worth less because they’re fat? Sorry, but I’m not ok living in a society that discounts the value of human life based on general health. One of the things that makes us human is having some compassion for one another, regardless of Darwinian attributes. If we’re willing to write off the weak and the sick, then we’re no more evolved than fucking gorillas. 

The point is that it completely disrupts the very obvious narrative being pushed that "covid can get anyone." It's bullshit. A couple kids and a couple healthy people under the age of 40 die and their deaths are used as some sort of representation of why everybody is supposed to be terrified of this disease.

 

That's the lie. Some people, maybe you, simply can't accept the fact that others just don't care about covid. There's a vaccine, if you want to protect yourself, if you're fat, if you're old, if you have cancer, if there's any reason why you're at a higher risk, get it. So what the fuck else is there left to care about? 

 

What exactly is the point of these articles? So and so died, this 14 year old got sick, these 30-year-olds thought they were fine and then they got covid and died, what is the point? The point is to scare people into getting the vaccine. With misrepresented statistics. The point is to say *actually you're wrong, this disease is incredibly dangerous to you if you're young and healthy, and here's a bunch of examples of how risky this whole thing is*. It's using fear to motivate a desired action. Because the truth doesn't support the mandate.

 

I don't know anybody that is happy that fat people or old people are dying from this disease, but the conversation isn't about covid, it's about compelled behavior, vaccine mandates. So it's relevant if they had comorbidities because their death is no longer an obvious justification for government compulsion.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

The point is that it completely disrupts the very obvious narrative being pushed that "covid can get anyone." It's bullshit. A couple kids and a couple healthy people under the age of 40 die and their deaths are used as some sort of representation of why everybody is supposed to be terrified of this disease.

 

That's the lie. Some people, maybe you, simply can't accept the fact that others just don't care about covid. There's a vaccine, if you want to protect yourself, if you're fat, if you're old, if you have cancer, if there's any reason why you're at a higher risk, get it. So what the fuck else is there left to care about? 

 

What exactly is the point of these articles? So and so died, this 14 year old got sick, these 30-year-olds thought they were fine and then they got covid and died, what is the point? The point is to scare people into getting the vaccine. With misrepresented statistics. The point is to say *actually you're wrong, this disease is incredibly dangerous to you if you're young and healthy, and here's a bunch of examples of how risky this whole thing is*. It's using fear to motivate a desired action. Because the truth doesn't support the mandate.

 

I don't know anybody that is happy that fat people or old people are dying from this disease, but the conversation isn't about covid, it's about compelled behavior, vaccine mandates. So it's relevant if they had comorbidities because their death is no longer an obvious justification for government compulsion.

I think most people accept that fact. Obvious extremists on both sides. It’s just the callousness of not caring enough about those at risk in the population to not get the shot and help limit it’s spread. I’m not for mandating it. I do think using what used to be the arguments crazy anti vaxxers used but that are now mainstream to not get a shot is caring more about yourself than others, but that’s your choice. If I’m lucky enough to live to be 70+ I hope the generations behind us care more about us than we do of our elders.

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13 hours ago, herkbier said:

It’s actually very easy.. you start with being truthful in everything you say. You have integrity. You admit everywhere you’ve failed to do that. You don’t tell white lies of omission for political reasons or to try and steer people one way or the other. 
 

Those institutions have proven they can’t be trusted. It will take time to regain the public’s trust.. that shouldn’t be surprising. 
 

edit: You also get out of the news = entertainment business. You engage in thorough reporting and cite reliable, vetted sources. You acknowledge opposing viewpoints without thinly veiled swipes.

 

766BA186-AFAD-4EAD-83E6-EC76D208E909.gif

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1 hour ago, MCO said:

I think most people accept that fact. Obvious extremists on both sides. It’s just the callousness of not caring enough about those at risk in the population to not get the shot and help limit it’s spread. I’m not for mandating it. I do think using what used to be the arguments crazy anti vaxxers used but that are now mainstream to not get a shot is caring more about yourself than others, but that’s your choice. If I’m lucky enough to live to be 70+ I hope the generations behind us care more about us than we do of our elders.

I hope you carry this same self-righteous indignation into the election season and vote out those “callous and uncaring” bastards who can’t even wear a mask because they care about themselves more than others. Here’s just a few photographed recently: Biden, Newsom, Pelosi, Lightfoot, and Whitmer to name a few. 

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6 hours ago, O Face said:

I hope you carry this same self-righteous indignation into the election season and vote out those “callous and uncaring” bastards who can’t even wear a mask because they care about themselves more than others. Here’s just a few photographed recently: Biden, Newsom, Pelosi, Lightfoot, and Whitmer to name a few. 

This is how political the vaccine has become. Just being pro vaccine means I’m obviously an extreme libtard who down ballots democrats every time. I don’t care about masks unless a business wants me to wear it, and I think vaccine mandates outside of how we mandate other vaccines treads on peoples freedoms. But I think not getting the vaccine just to make that point using the same anti vaxxer arguments you probably made fun of 2 years ago while saying sucks old and fat people are dying is kind of ridiculous. Now go ahead and burn the witch.

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21 hours ago, herkbier said:

It’s actually very easy.. you start with being truthful in everything you say. You have integrity. You admit everywhere you’ve failed to do that. You don’t tell white lies of omission for political reasons or to try and steer people one way or the other. 
 

Those institutions have proven they can’t be trusted. It will take time to regain the public’s trust.. that shouldn’t be surprising. 
 

edit: You also get out of the news = entertainment business. You engage in thorough reporting and cite reliable, vetted sources. You acknowledge opposing viewpoints without thinly veiled swipes.

The whole truth in reporting, or lack thereof, has done substantial damage to credibility of individuals, the media, and organizations. My old favorite covid death was the dude killed on a motorcycle in Florida. But that has been usurped by a firearm murder/suicide in Colorado listed as covid deaths. I'm pretty sure covid kills people but why go so far off the logic reservation to run up the numbers?

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2 hours ago, TreeA10 said:

I'm pretty sure covid kills people but why go so far off the logic reservation to run up the numbers?

Money and power. I understand how some groups profit from continued hysteria and terror, but I’m not smart enough to really understand how others are benefiting from all this. 
 

Ironically.. investigative journalism and watch dog groups filled that role—although, I guess now they are just labeled conspiracy theorists. 

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11 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

The point is that it completely disrupts the very obvious narrative being pushed that "covid can get anyone." It's bullshit. A couple kids and a couple healthy people under the age of 40 die and their deaths are used as some sort of representation of why everybody is supposed to be terrified of this disease.

 

That's the lie. Some people, maybe you, simply can't accept the fact that others just don't care about covid. There's a vaccine, if you want to protect yourself, if you're fat, if you're old, if you have cancer, if there's any reason why you're at a higher risk, get it. So what the fuck else is there left to care about? 

 

What exactly is the point of these articles? So and so died, this 14 year old got sick, these 30-year-olds thought they were fine and then they got covid and died, what is the point? The point is to scare people into getting the vaccine. With misrepresented statistics. The point is to say *actually you're wrong, this disease is incredibly dangerous to you if you're young and healthy, and here's a bunch of examples of how risky this whole thing is*. It's using fear to motivate a desired action. Because the truth doesn't support the mandate.

 

I don't know anybody that is happy that fat people or old people are dying from this disease, but the conversation isn't about covid, it's about compelled behavior, vaccine mandates. So it's relevant if they had comorbidities because their death is no longer an obvious justification for government compulsion.

Ok. I can understand and appreciate your point about left leaning media pushing the “fear porn”. Sensationalism and outrage sells. That’s the world we live in. I think most who engage here consider themselves thinking human beings & regardless of political tilt, are looking to sift through the chaff & find something a little closer to the truth. Along those lines, there are plenty of right leaning sources and go in the complete opposite direction, discounting any threat at all and insisting society should move on, unencumbered by any need to bend itself to the realities of this virus at all (curiously, while also making the case that this was a brilliant bio-weapon, released by a China on the brink of world domination).  I think it’s safe to say that the truth lies somewhere in between those extremes. It’s also a safe bet that CNN and FOX won’t be losing their influence anytime soon, and individuals who value critical thought will have to share their world with those less adept at the process. 
 

You indirectly asked the question: why, if I am vaccinated/protected, do I care what others do wrt vaccination/masking/etc? Well, I’ll tell you & I do not intend to be condescending or smug here at all. Despite a metric fuck ton of misinformation to the contrary, vaccines, while not perfect, make you many times less likely to contract COVID. If you DO happen to have a breakthrough case, being vaccinated means you are less likely to spread the virus to others. Here is just one of many studies: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/10/13/do-coronavirus-vaccines-prevent-transmission-of-the-virus 

You may argue otherwise, but you are highly unlikely to convince me that the vaccines are not efficacious, nor are you likely to convince me that they are unsafe. So why do I care if you’re vaccinated? Because I may have to sit next to you on an airplane for nine hours. I may have to shop in the same supermarket where you fingered the peaches (sts) fifteen minutes earlier. I may have to work in the same office as you. I may have to stand in line at the DMV with you. You get the idea. Now, being a relatively young, fit, healthy person, am I worried about a severe or life threatening case of COVID-19? Not particularly. But I have a non-vaccinated child under 12 at home who I am worried about. I have an immunocompromised parent whom I see often that I am worried about. I have a grandmother about to turn 100 who I am worried about and who’s upcoming party I would dearly like to attend.
 

So, yes I do care if you are vaccinated because your chances of having an infection are less, thereby reducing the chance you will infect me. If you ARE infected and vaccinated, your chances of spreading your infection to me are STILL much lower. 

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12 hours ago, MCO said:

I think most people accept that fact. Obvious extremists on both sides. It’s just the callousness of not caring enough about those at risk in the population to not get the shot and help limit it’s spread. I’m not for mandating it. I do think using what used to be the arguments crazy anti vaxxers used but that are now mainstream to not get a shot is caring more about yourself than others, but that’s your choice. If I’m lucky enough to live to be 70+ I hope the generations behind us care more about us than we do of our elders.

The vast majority of those with comorbidities are self-induced. If they don't care enough about themselves to resolve their own situation, why should I be compelled to help them potentially putting myself at risk receiving a "vaccine" that doesn't prevent you from getting the virus, doesn't prevent you from spreading the virus, and has no long term history of known side effects because it still has over a year to complete testing?

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1 hour ago, Prozac said:

Ok. I can understand and appreciate your point about left leaning media pushing the “fear porn”. Sensationalism and outrage sells. That’s the world we live in. I think most who engage here consider themselves thinking human beings & regardless of political tilt, are looking to sift through the chaff & find something a little closer to the truth. Along those lines, there are plenty of right leaning sources and go in the complete opposite direction, discounting any threat at all and insisting society should move on, unencumbered by any need to bend itself to the realities of this virus at all (curiously, while also making the case that this was a brilliant bio-weapon, released by a China on the brink of world domination).  I think it’s safe to say that the truth lies somewhere in between those extremes. It’s also a safe bet that CNN and FOX won’t be losing their influence anytime soon, and individuals who value critical thought will have to share their world with those less adept at the process. 
 

You indirectly asked the question: why, if I am vaccinated/protected, do I care what others do wrt vaccination/masking/etc? Well, I’ll tell you & I do not intend to be condescending or smug here at all. Despite a metric fuck ton of misinformation to the contrary, vaccines, while not perfect, make you many times less likely to contract COVID. If you DO happen to have a breakthrough case, being vaccinated means you are less likely to spread the virus to others. Here is just one of many studies: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/10/13/do-coronavirus-vaccines-prevent-transmission-of-the-virus 

You may argue otherwise, but you are highly unlikely to convince me that the vaccines are not efficacious, nor are you likely to convince me that they are unsafe. So why do I care if you’re vaccinated? Because I may have to sit next to you on an airplane for nine hours. I may have to shop in the same supermarket where you fingered the peaches (sts) fifteen minutes earlier. I may have to work in the same office as you. I may have to stand in line at the DMV with you. You get the idea. Now, being a relatively young, fit, healthy person, am I worried about a severe or life threatening case of COVID-19? Not particularly. But I have a non-vaccinated child under 12 at home who I am worried about. I have an immunocompromised parent whom I see often that I am worried about. I have a grandmother about to turn 100 who I am worried about and who’s upcoming party I would dearly like to attend.
 

So, yes I do care if you are vaccinated because your chances of having an infection are less, thereby reducing the chance you will infect me. If you ARE infected and vaccinated, your chances of spreading your infection to me are STILL much lower. 

Agreed with the first part. I'm vaccinated and against mandates, so obviously I agree that the truth is in the middle. I'm sympathetic to the individuals who fell for the right wing conspiracy theories regarding COVID vaccines for the same reason I was sympathetic to the individuals who fell for the left wing conspiracy theories regarding policing and minorities in the US. A simple reality is most americans, even many highly educated ones, do not have the skills required to sift through data that is intentionally misrepresented to them by seemingly authoritative sources.

Well I can understand your position regarding other people being vaccinated, and I certainly agree that the vaccines have some effect on transmission, I believe the threshold for a mandate is very high, and the vaccines do not meet that. Pre-delta you could at least make a solid case, but the rates of transmission amongst the vaccinated in the Delta environment are no longer reduced enough to justify a mandate in my opinion. All it's going to do is slow down the inevitable, and looking at the numbers, not by much. Unfortunately a lot of the studies that show efficacy against Delta transmission are measuring a few months after vaccination, subsequently the efficacy against transmission drops quite dramatically. The vaccines do, however, continue to stave off severe hospitalization or death, but that brings us right back to "if you're worried, get the vaccine."

Much like the flu, and unlike measles, there isn't going to be herd immunity granted by widespread vaccination to the Covid-19. It's a bummer, but there are many bummers in life.

A small nitpic, but being on a plane for 9 hours is one of the safest places you can be. I don't believe there are many documented cases of spread from air traffic. Bleed air and whatnot.

 

A big nitpic, unless your kid has a very severe underlying condition that you just left out of your post, being worried about him or her getting covid would only make sense if you already kept them in a protective bubble 24/7. It is simply a statistical reality that covid does not represent a threat to children. Is one of the most heavily supported conclusions, bar none. And it is example number one of the fear mongering you reference to the beginning of your post.

 

In fact, it's a fairly easy way to immediately suss out whether someone talking about the virus is intentionally full of shit or not. Anyone advocating for the mandatory vaccination of children, using the safety of children as justification, either has no idea what they are talking about or know exactly what they are lying about.

 

On a more interesting and philosophical level, we now have a great case study in *why* mandates are bad. It kind of goes to the entire argument supporting Liberty in general. Some of us, atheist or otherwise unconcerned with a higher power, support systems of Liberty because at the end of the day they just work better. A bunch of people on the left are going to spend the next few years figuring out what they did wrong and how to craft a better mandate, but instead they should be asking themselves why they thought mandates were the best way to get it done in the first place. Clearly they aren't, but I think to admit that only very specific, and very few policies can be successfully turned into a mandate would undermine their entire long range goal of widespread "social progress," which will most certainly require many, many mandates.

 

Thanks for the honest reply.

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31 minutes ago, Blue said:

https://rumble.com/vnouq3-twitter-user-video-showing-the-shifting-narrative-in-vaccine-efficacy.html

This video has been making the rounds, a 2 minute review of the ever-shifting narrative on vaccine effectiveness.

Snips of headlines flashing by too quickly to read, and all of them completely without context. But the numbers counted down as classical music increased in tempo and volume. So that must mean something. 

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I think the reality that often gets missed in these discussions is that, for the vast majority of all us little "cogs in the economic machine," the Covd pandemic is over.  We've moved on.

The contractor I hired to do some remodeling didn't care about masks or vaccine status, and neither did anyone on his crew.  The cared about getting the job done, getting paid, and moving onto the next job.

When I took a business trip to one of our industrial sites, the factory leadership stressed all the different covid mitigation measures that were in play (masks, plexiglass shields, etc).  When it came down to getting on the plant floor, the mechanics and technicians gave a decent effort to wear masks, but the cumbersome plexiglass shields stayed in the corner, where they belonged.  They were too busy getting work done.

The current administration is trying to shoe-horn in this vaccine mandate, and I'm sure the threat of the mandate has driven more people to get the jab.  But the reality is that, as soon as the actual mandate is officially published (whenever that is), it'll get dragged down into the courts and never again see the light of day.  Those companies that got all kinds of press when they mandated the jab (United Airlines, etc) will eventually drop the mandate, with little fanfare.

There are various entities out there that benefit from a never-ending pandemic.  They'll continue to try to keep the narrative and propaganda flowing.

For the rest of us, we've all moved on.

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