Jump to content

Gen Milley should resign


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

I'll concede that your first statement is mostly accurate; looking back, most people on this forum did caveat things with "if true" or something to that effect.

  Since we're speculating, to your second point, predictability is the is one of the reasons I'm very skeptical about the allegations contained in this latest book.  Most 3-4 star generals are politicians or at least very politically savvy once they get to that level, it's how they got there in the first place.  In my experience, all the generals I've been around or worked with at that level invoke CYA in almost everything they do and say (I think they take a class in it prior to pinning on that third star).  Slight derail, as I understand it (I've never done a puzzle palace tour thankfully) it used to be the JCS was actually one leadership level where this wasn't always true, since once you've made JCS or CJCS you've hit the ceiling, there's no where else to go.  My buddies up in the Pentagon have told me that dynamic changed appreciably once Mattis was made SECDEF; several generals now had the attitude that they were still potentially upwardly mobile and started acting as such, but I digress.

  I find it very difficult to believe that Milley told the Chinese he'd give them a heads up before the US attacked or that he made other officers swear an oath to him regarding the use of nuclear weapons because if he did those things too many people are/were in the know and as has been stated on this forum, those are illegal acts that would result in UCMJ actions.  If the people in the room for those calls or the officers he allegedly made swear an oath get hauled in front of Congress, the IG, or a courts martial, they're not going to fall on their swords for the good general.  He'd be proper fucked and he's smart enough to know that. 

  Another thing to consider, at least regarding the timing of the first call.  What if Trump had won the election?  I find it very difficult (though not impossible, as I said I'll be interested in what he says to Congress on the 28th) to believe that Milley would take such actions or say such things knowing the guy he allegedly is conspiring against might still be his boss.  Trump sure as shit wasn't going to give him a pardon or be forgiving about it.  To be clear, I'm not arguing that Milley didn't do and say these things because of his honorable character, I'm saying I think it's very unlikely because he's a political creature.

  On the Chris Miller denial point in particular, we'll have to agree to disagree.  In a follow up to his statement to Fox about the phone calls, he told Politico, despite his pretty forceful rebuke:

"I imagine there was a perfunctory exchange between us and our staffs about coordinating phone calls and messages for the day.”

“I don’t recall the specifics, and it certainly wasn’t in a detailed or more formal way," he added. "It was more perfunctory/routine.”

  Always have an out/CYA.

  Also, the guy was in the seat as SECDEF for 53 days; before that he was ASD/SOLIC for only 3 months.  In most staff gigs it takes a min 4-6 weeks to get your head wrapped around the day-in/out basics.  At the time of the second phone call, he was two days removed from the storming of the capital debacle and he also was working to catch up on the transition to the Biden administration, which had been delayed due to Trump's refusal to concede the election results.  My guess (once again I'm speculating) is that his office had been advised of the call and that he had other things going on.

  FWIW, I think at minimum McKenzie and Milley should resign over how the Afghan withdrawal was conducted, I'm just not fired up over this story unless more corroborating facts come out.  My personal take on this right now is that it smells of the 10% truth rule on Friday night stories at the squadron bar.     

  

All completely plausible. I will only quibble on one point, that politicians and generals are good at covering their ass.

 

They are very good at not giving answers. But when it comes to what they do (when they think they are) behind closed doors, there I have to disagree with you. McChrystal (sp?), Patraeus, Mark Sanford, Larry Craig. Obama's "after the election" message to Putin, John Edwards... Do I need to go on?

 

They absolutely, positively, always cover their ass. But that doesn't mean that they're always smart enough to know when they should. And honestly, at this point I think it's abundantly clear that there is a negative correlation between intelligence, competence, and vision, vs the drive to achieve the highest levels of political power.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/14/2021 at 7:14 PM, dogfish78 said:

@Disco_Nav963 I see you downvoted my sentencing recommendation. What sentence would you prefer for treason instead? A guilty plea down to a low level misdemeanor offense and 2 months un-supervised probation?

I would prefer you to get off this board and take a short walk off of a tall building.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/15/2021 at 8:53 AM, dogfish78 said:

lol what???

18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason
“Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.”

There’s a reason people are criminally convicted for attempting to have sexual relations with minors, or to sell drugs, or to murder someone, but not actually completing the task, it’s called… wait for it… a conspiracy. 

If true, Milley conspired with the Chinese, an enemy of the United Stares, by adhering to them, giving them aid and comfort through a promised advanced warning of military action, and essentially declaring war on the United States by subverting the civil authority which was POTUS Trump.

Having said that, I would say it surpassed conspiracy since he (allegedly) did successfully commit treason by contacting the Chinese and sharing information aiding them without POTUS’ approval.

..and AGAIN, allegedly he said he would do something if something else happened.  He said this to a party we are NOT currently at war with.  Is it bad (if true)?  Yes.  Does the (alleged) statement meet the legal definition of treason?  No, on multiple levels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

I'll concede that your first statement is mostly accurate; looking back, most people on this forum did caveat things with "if true" or something to that effect.

  Since we're speculating, to your second point, predictability is the is one of the reasons I'm very skeptical about the allegations contained in this latest book.  Most 3-4 star generals are politicians or at least very politically savvy once they get to that level, it's how they got there in the first place.  In my experience, all the generals I've been around or worked with at that level invoke CYA in almost everything they do and say (I think they take a class in it prior to pinning on that third star).  Slight derail, as I understand it (I've never done a puzzle palace tour thankfully) it used to be the JCS was actually one leadership level where this wasn't always true, since once you've made JCS or CJCS you've hit the ceiling, there's no where else to go.  My buddies up in the Pentagon have told me that dynamic changed appreciably once Mattis was made SECDEF; several generals now had the attitude that they were still potentially upwardly mobile and started acting as such, but I digress.

  I find it very difficult to believe that Milley told the Chinese he'd give them a heads up before the US attacked or that he made other officers swear an oath to him regarding the use of nuclear weapons because if he did those things too many people are/were in the know and as has been stated on this forum, those are illegal acts that would result in UCMJ actions.  If the people in the room for those calls or the officers he allegedly made swear an oath get hauled in front of Congress, the IG, or a courts martial, they're not going to fall on their swords for the good general.  He'd be proper fucked and he's smart enough to know that. 

  Another thing to consider, at least regarding the timing of the first call.  What if Trump had won the election?  I find it very difficult (though not impossible, as I said I'll be interested in what he says to Congress on the 28th) to believe that Milley would take such actions or say such things knowing the guy he allegedly is conspiring against might still be his boss.  Trump sure as shit wasn't going to give him a pardon or be forgiving about it.  To be clear, I'm not arguing that Milley didn't do and say these things because of his honorable character, I'm saying I think it's very unlikely because he's a political creature.

  On the Chris Miller denial point in particular, we'll have to agree to disagree.  In a follow up to his statement to Fox about the phone calls, he told Politico, despite his pretty forceful rebuke:

"I imagine there was a perfunctory exchange between us and our staffs about coordinating phone calls and messages for the day.”

“I don’t recall the specifics, and it certainly wasn’t in a detailed or more formal way," he added. "It was more perfunctory/routine.”

  Always have an out/CYA.

  Also, the guy was in the seat as SECDEF for 53 days; before that he was ASD/SOLIC for only 3 months.  In most staff gigs it takes a min 4-6 weeks to get your head wrapped around the day-in/out basics.  At the time of the second phone call, he was two days removed from the storming of the capital debacle and he also was working to catch up on the transition to the Biden administration, which had been delayed due to Trump's refusal to concede the election results.  My guess (once again I'm speculating) is that his office had been advised of the call and that he had other things going on.

  FWIW, I think at minimum McKenzie and Milley should resign over how the Afghan withdrawal was conducted, I'm just not fired up over this story unless more corroborating facts come out.  My personal take on this right now is that it smells of the 10% truth rule on Friday night stories at the squadron bar.     

  

Best post in this entire thread.

For everyone who hasn’t done a tour in DC/Pentagon, who’s forgotten what it’s like, or who’s old and angry and wants somebodys butt, keep in mind:

1. DC is a cesspool. It is a terrible terrible unwholesome crazy 68 square miles surrounded by reality. What happens there is as much theater as truth. 

2. Everything is deliberate. 

3. Politics is about power. Power is about money. (In the end, everything is about money. Follow the dollars.)

4. You don’t know the full story, nor will you.

5. DC is a paradox. Not everything is newsworthy, or as bad/impactful as the news makes it. Unfortunately, when things unravel they unravel quickly, and you never know whats going to tip the scale, so pay attention to everything.

My advice for anyone going there is to enjoy it as best you can, learn to swim with the sharks without chumming the water via your mistakes, then get the hell out of there as quick as you can. 

Because its fucking terrible.

Chuck

  • Like 4
  • Upvote 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Chuck17 said:

Best post in this entire thread.

For everyone who hasn’t done a tour in DC/Pentagon, who’s forgotten what it’s like, or who’s old and angry and wants somebodys butt, keep in mind:

1. DC is a cesspool. It is a terrible terrible unwholesome crazy 68 square miles surrounded by reality. What happens there is as much theater as truth. 

2. Everything is deliberate. 

3. Politics is about power. Power is about money. (In the end, everything is about money. Follow the dollars.)

4. You don’t know the full story, nor will you.

5. DC is a paradox. Not everything is newsworthy, or as bad/impactful as the news makes it. Unfortunately, when things unravel they unravel quickly, and you never know whats going to tip the scale, so pay attention to everything.

My advice for anyone going there is to enjoy it as best you can, learn to swim with the sharks without chumming the water via your mistakes, then get the hell out of there as quick as you can. 

Because its fucking terrible.

Chuck

A couple months into my first tour my family asked what it was like..."it must be so exciting."  I started to think about it and could not find the words to describe what a life drain it was.  Walking into the building every morning, with every step closer you find yourself looking down, no one makes eye contact, no one says hello...you enter with the sole purpose of trying to survive and mark another calendar day off your sentence.

In the beginning I was idealistic, maybe I can make a difference, then I saw how the sausage was made and the absolute selfishness, the dysfunction and the parochial decision making that defies logic and the good of the nation.  It didn't take long to become jaded and salty.  I watched the Navy lie and runs deal behind everyone's back to absolutely screw the Air Force AND the nation.  During my second tour I watched a now sitting three star outright lie and manipulate the system to screw warfighters...AFSOC could have had all J models to replace the most deployed AC-130's and MC-130's YEARS ago AND they were already paid for, but this absolute scum bag argued AMC needed to homogenize the slick fleet at Yokota...which was doing one AEF rotation every 18 months at that point.  I remember sitting across the table from him after a meeting with DEPSECDEF trying to appeal to his common sense..."these are by FAR the most deployed and used aircraft in the Air Force...63-64 year model MC-130Ps and 69 year model AC-130Hs that are flying three times the programmed hours every year and need to be replaced now...think of the young men and women we are sending out to fight in these machines.  He just looked back at me with a blank stare...sickening.  I have no idea how these people look themselves in the mirror. 

Speaking of mirrors, this was one of the best days in my career.

rearview-mirror-150x150.jpg

 

 

 

  • Like 8
  • Upvote 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was a Captain someone pointed out to me "the game" and I finally realized how it all works. That is, as mentioned above, money is power and everything is money. If you want to be a General in the AF, you need to be getting good at money. That's really all there is to it. Think back to EVERY single GO you've ever heard speak. They will all talk to you about how important and critical their mission is, how it is changing war fighting and guaranteeing 21st century security for the US. Almost EVERY SINGLE speech ends with "but to do this guys we need more money" or "more people" or "more resources." Their entire function is to lobby their service to gain more political power to spend. 

If you doubt me, think back to you FIRST week in your weapon system. At the FTU, generally a whole academic plan is built around the history and legacy of your platform. Then it goes into the 21st century warfighting strategy with it. At the base, we expect every CGO to be an advocate for their weapon system. This is what jaded me. It doesn't matter if the system is useful or not, to be a good officer you need to advocate it. Everything needs to be a priority because if its not a priority, it wont get money. 

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wait, what?  I thought being an officer was about “supporting and defending the Constitution”?  Now I’m hearing that it’s about money and power?  What ever happened to “core values” and the other services’ commitments to integrity?

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Scheller's meltdown continues...he's now trying to find a JAG to help him charge general officers under the UCMJ.

He does know that a Lt Col does not have that kind of authority...right?

https://imgur.com/a/gw9JQ7i

I'm empathetic to his frustration though. GOs are very rarely held accountable for negligence. Short of committing a serious felony like rape or murder, you rarely see them suffer discipline. That said, nothing he does is going to change the situation as it stands. He is only making things worse for himself. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, FLEA said:

I'm empathetic to his frustration though. GOs are very rarely held accountable for negligence. Short of committing a serious felony like rape or murder, you rarely see them suffer discipline. That said, nothing he does is going to change the situation as it stands. He is only making things worse for himself. 

I agreed with some of the points in his first video...but he seems to be steaming full-speed into Crazytown with each new post.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I agreed with some of the points in his first video...but he seems to be steaming full-speed into Crazytown with each new post.

Yeah, I mean the dudes family left him, his career is in shambles, and he will probably spend time in jail. I imagine his mental health is death spiraling lower than a dive bell. Just his last video you can tell the dude isn't getting much sleep. 

Edited by FLEA
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Wait, what?  I thought being an officer was about “supporting and defending the Constitution”?  Now I’m hearing that it’s about money and power?  What ever happened to “core values” and the other services’ commitments to integrity?

I can't tell if you're being facetious, but what you personally think being an officer is about, and the actual reasoning of why the DoD does certain things in order to affect a desired outcome among its middle management workforce, are two very different things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, joe1234 said:

I can't tell if you're being facetious, but what you personally think being an officer is about, and the actual reasoning of why the DoD does certain things in order to affect a desired outcome among its middle management workforce, are two very different things.

If you don’t think there are bad things happening at higher levels of the DoD then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, FLEA said:

Yeah, I mean the dudes family left him, his career is in shambles, and he will probably spend time in jail. I imagine his mental health is death spiraling lower than a dive bell. Just his last video you can tell the dude isn't getting much sleep. 

He’s most likely going to get general court martialed and get a dismissal, costing him all VA benefits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Chuck17 said:

Best post in this entire thread.

For everyone who hasn’t done a tour in DC/Pentagon, who’s forgotten what it’s like, or who’s old and angry and wants somebodys butt, keep in mind:

1. DC is a cesspool. It is a terrible terrible unwholesome crazy 68 square miles surrounded by reality. What happens there is as much theater as truth. 

2. Everything is deliberate. 

3. Politics is about power. Power is about money. (In the end, everything is about money. Follow the dollars.)

4. You don’t know the full story, nor will you.

5. DC is a paradox. Not everything is newsworthy, or as bad/impactful as the news makes it. Unfortunately, when things unravel they unravel quickly, and you never know whats going to tip the scale, so pay attention to everything.

My advice for anyone going there is to enjoy it as best you can, learn to swim with the sharks without chumming the water via your mistakes, then get the hell out of there as quick as you can. 

Because its fucking terrible.

Chuck

Sounds like a swampy, deep state kind of place.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

He’s most likely going to get general court martialed and get a dismissal, costing him all VA benefits.

I hate to admit it, but you’re probably right. This case could be amazing for actually showing that the military gave a shit about mental health and helped a guy who served honorably for 17 years.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a 2 min video. These comments were on September 1. How is he still the CJCS?

All three of the points he made here have turned out to be false. Was he ignorant of the truth, trying to stretch the truth, or knowingly saying things that weren't true?

 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/18/2021 at 3:17 PM, Danger41 said:

I hate to admit it, but you’re probably right. This case could be amazing for actually showing that the military gave a shit about mental health and helped a guy who served honorably for 17 years.

As someone who got screwed at 16 years of service, just to watch people do worse and retire cause they were over 20, I quickly realized the military doesn’t give a shit about anything but looking good via optics.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

He has already said that he’ll plead guilty if he can get an honorable discharge…which I doubt the USMC will go for.  As it is, if/when this goes to trial, I think his attorneys will try and make the Corps/DoD look pretty bad in several ways.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

He has already said that he’ll plead guilty if he can get an honorable discharge…which I doubt the USMC will go for.  As it is, if/when this goes to trial, I think his attorneys will try and make the Corps/DoD look pretty bad in several ways.

He’d be lucky to get a General Under Honorable. If he was enlisted, due to his years of service, he’d keep his VA benefits, like the Post 9/11 G.I. Bill, due to having multiple “honorable” enlistments except the last one. I don’t know how the VA does an honorable service characterization for officers in that scenario.

Edited by Sua Sponte
Link to comment
Share on other sites

“He was allowed recreational time for a minimum of two hours a day and could regularly converse with other prisoners and staff, albeit socially distanced and masked when in the company of others in accordance with COVID-19 protocols. As a policy, the brig does not put its prisoners in solitary confinement,” he added.

Was that really fucking relevant or necessary to point out in this situation? 🤦🏼‍♂️

Edited by kaputt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, kaputt said:

“He was allowed recreational time for a minimum of two hours a day and could regularly converse with other prisoners and staff, albeit socially distanced and masked when in the company of others in accordance with COVID-19 protocols. As a policy, the brig does not put its prisoners in solitary confinement,” he added.

Was that really fucking relevant or necessary to point out in this situation? 🤦🏼‍♂️

Unfortunately, yes, because it keeps some enterprising "whistle blower" from framing a photo with him all alone and claiming he's being kept in solitary confinement. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...