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Laughlin UPT info


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Just got some short notice UPT dates for Laughlin. If anyone is currently there I would love to discuss the current state of UPT, ROM expectations for this winter and lodging for accompanied members. For reference I'm a guard 135 guy who will be PCSing with my wife and dogs in mid September.

As a broad discussion:

How many hours are students currently expecting to get during UPT (2.5?)

If I hold a single engine CPL, what PIC time can I log during T-6s (Only solo time?)

Any advice/study guides I should familiarize myself with prior to arrival?

 

Thanks!

 

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Just got some short notice UPT dates for Laughlin. If anyone is currently there I would love to discuss the current state of UPT, ROM expectations for this winter and lodging for accompanied members. For reference I'm a guard 135 guy who will be PCSing with my wife and dogs in mid September.
As a broad discussion:
How many hours are students currently expecting to get during UPT (2.5?)
If I hold a single engine CPL, what PIC time can I log during T-6s (Only solo time?)
Any advice/study guides I should familiarize myself with prior to arrival?
 
Thanks!
 

Logging the questionable few hours of PIC as a T-6 student is definitely not worth opening up that can of worms in an airline interview…
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32 minutes ago, benfng said:

Just got some short notice UPT dates for Laughlin. If anyone is currently there I would love to discuss the current state of UPT, ROM expectations for this winter and lodging for accompanied members. For reference I'm a guard 135 guy who will be PCSing with my wife and dogs in mid September.

As a broad discussion:

How many hours are students currently expecting to get during UPT (2.5?)

If I hold a single engine CPL, what PIC time can I log during T-6s (Only solo time?)

Any advice/study guides I should familiarize myself with prior to arrival?

 

Thanks!

 

~100 hours in T-6s, around an additional 40 in the T-1.

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If you hold a private or higher FAA ticket already, then you can log PIC/SIC like any other aircraft. Solo and dual received are only for student pilots. 

Edited by Bigred
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Why would that be an issue?
You flew the T-6 alone. Who else would be PIC?
I doubt anyone would care one way or the other.

Did you sign for the jet? Most airlines use that as their PIC requirement, not just who was at the controls. Your name wont be on the flight orders with an “A” code so you aren’t the PIC. Or log it. I definitely don’t know what I’m talking about.
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1 hour ago, 189Herk said:


Did you sign for the jet? Most airlines use that as their PIC requirement, not just who was at the controls. Your name wont be on the flight orders with an “A” code so you aren’t the PIC. Or log it. I definitely don’t know what I’m talking about.

I recall signing for the jet at the step desk during any upt solos. Though tbh as a stud with a helmet fire it could have been anything that I was signing.

Edited by LiquidSky
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On 7/31/2021 at 8:31 AM, benfng said:

If I hold a single engine CPL, what PIC time can I log during T-6s (Only solo time?)


Almost all of it, at least the amount you’re acting as sole manipulator of controls.  Expanded reasoning…

FAR 61.51 states you can log PIC when acting as sole manipulator of controls, for any airplane in which you’re rated. Rated = category, class , type (if applicable). You can log PIC while receiving instruction, provided you meet the conditions in the first sentence. T-6 = Aircraft single engine land, no type required.  

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5 hours ago, 189Herk said:


Did you sign for the jet? Most airlines use that as their PIC requirement, not just who was at the controls. Your name wont be on the flight orders with an “A” code so you aren’t the PIC. Or log it. I definitely don’t know what I’m talking about.

He doesn’t have to conform to how his future employer may do it, nor how the AF does it, he has to abide by the FARs. And I don’t think any airline is going to ask or give a fuck in the interview, at that point in his flying career, about 69 hrs he logged ten years ago. And if they do, he can provide a response about how he logged time IAW FAR 61.51.

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15 hours ago, Bigred said:

If you hold a private or higher FAA ticket already, then you can log PIC/SIC like any other aircraft. Solo and dual received are only for student pilots. 

Airlines don’t view it that way. 
the only PIC time he will have is solo time.

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9 hours ago, brabus said:


Almost all of it, at least the amount you’re acting as sole manipulator of controls.  Expanded reasoning…

FAR 61.51 states you can log PIC when acting as sole manipulator of controls, for any airplane in which you’re rated. Rated = category, class , type (if applicable). You can log PIC while receiving instruction, provided you meet the conditions in the first sentence. T-6 = Aircraft single engine land, no type required.  

Does he have a high performance sign off?

 

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21 minutes ago, LookieRookie said:

Airlines don’t view it that way. 
the only PIC time he will have is solo time.

He didn't ask how to report PIC time for the airlines, just if he can log PIC. He said he has a CPL which I assume is his commercial, so he can log PIC a multiple of ways. To reiterate, he can log PIC as the sole manipulator of the controls if he's flying while the instructor is in the aircraft, and he can also log PIC when he is soloing since he already has a ticket.  

And having a commercial ticket means you can log time in a high performance, complex aircraft. The only caveat would be if there is a type rating associated with the aircraft, which in the case of the T-6, doesn't exist. 

To echo Brabus, airlines don't dictate how PIC time is logged, the FAA does.

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8 minutes ago, Bigred said:

And having a commercial ticket means you can log time in a high performance, complex aircraft. 

To expand on this as I can't edit my previous post. 

I misspoke on the HP and complex as part of the commercial. Complex is required (I believe 10 hours), but HP is not to get a commercial ticket. However, all that is required to fly an HP aircraft is the instructor endorsement. The IP literally endorses you to fly the T-6 solo prior to soloing so it meets the intent of the FARs for HP endorsement. Hence, he can log the solo time as PIC. 

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FAA PIC definition is definitely different than AF/Airline PIC definition. @brabus and @Bigred hit it on the head about what the FAR says and there’s another good thread on here discussing that debate a few years ago, as well, that has good info.

If you have a PPL and ASEL, PIC time for T6 can be logged because you’re “sole manipulator of the controls” when you’re flying. It will count toward PIC requirements for getting your (R)ATP, but the airlines won’t count it toward their PIC requirement because you’re not signing for the plane (besides for ~3.0 of T6 solo).

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21 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

Does he have a high performance sign off?

 

Doesn’t matter. An endorsement is different than class/rating/type. Still legal to log PIC even without the endorsement. Endorsement is only needed to solo, which happens when he’s singed off to solo in the syllabus. 
 

FDNY covered the rest. 

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I appreciate the conversation this stirred up. To add some clarity I do have a HP endorsement and this is primarily a question to satisfy my (R)ATP down the road. 

 

@FDNYOldGuy Thanks for the response, hope you are doing well. I remember you giving me a hand years ago when this whole process was just starting.  

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I appreciate the conversation this stirred up. To add some clarity I do have a HP endorsement and this is primarily a question to satisfy my ®ATP down the road. 
 


Not relevant. Reading 61.160, the only hours requirement for a military pilot to apply for an ® ATP is 750 hours total time. If the other requirements in 61.159 do in fact apply, you’ll have no problem getting the 250 hours as a required SIC performing the duties of PIC while under the supervision of a PIC.


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So, as a Commercial AMEL w/complex and HP already (endorsements irrelevant anyways from what I just read), will I also be able to log T-38 time as PIC? Is there some quick guide out there with all of this stuff compiled shortly and sweetly?

Also wondering if graduation from a part 141 aviation school matters in this mix in any way or if the military 750-hour requirement for (R)ATP just trumps it

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So, as a Commercial AMEL w/complex and HP already (endorsements irrelevant anyways from what I just read), will I also be able to log T-38 time as PIC? Is there some quick guide out there with all of this stuff compiled shortly and sweetly?
Also wondering if graduation from a part 141 aviation school matters in this mix in any way or if the military 750-hour requirement for ®ATP just trumps it

Stop worrying about it. You’ll meet the PIC requirements before you’re eligible for an ATP under any rule. If you go fighters, it’ll all be PIC. If you go heavies, you’ll be able to claim SIC acting as PIC under supervision of the PIC (also called primary time, in Air Force lingo). If you’re a reservist or guardsman, then a restricted (750 hour) ATP might be the way to go, if you want to start your airline career ASAP. If you’re active duty, you should have the 1500 hours for an unrestricted long before your ADSC is up. I had just enough hours after my first C-17 assignment to qualify for an unrestricted.


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I’m here currently, just graduated a couple weeks ago. Lodging for accompanied you have two options. You can stay on base housing which is run by Hunt Housing and they are jextremely incompetent or you can try to buy/rent off base. The market in Del Rio is not the best so most people try to stay on base for the duration of UPT. 
 

Items to familiarize yourself with is boldface/ops limits for the t-6 and the 202v3. You need to have the boldface/ops limits down cold on day 1. Laughlin has a lot of dumb t-6 specific departure/arrival procedures. For a guy like me who came into UPT with no flying experience it was a lot to understand at once. 

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I’m here currently, just graduated a couple weeks ago. Lodging for accompanied you have two options. You can stay on base housing which is run by Hunt Housing and they are jextremely incompetent or you can try to buy/rent off base. The market in Del Rio is not the best so most people try to stay on base for the duration of UPT. 
 
Items to familiarize yourself with is boldface/ops limits for the t-6 and the 202v3. You need to have the boldface/ops limits down cold on day 1. Laughlin has a lot of dumb t-6 specific departure/arrival procedures. For a guy like me who came into UPT with no flying experience it was a lot to understand at once. 

They are not dumb departure/recovery procedures. All are there for a reason. Show me a “dumb one” and I will educate your simple mind.


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