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The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)


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2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Why take time to fill out a survey when the results won’t matter?  Does anyone honestly think the GOs/SESs will change their current message/vector based on the responses/results of a survey?

 

Of course not, I was just curious about the woke garbage contained in the survey. 

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Wokeness training is cancelled. Signed - POTUS.  https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/M-20-34.pdf   

Did anyone really believe he would get a fair trial or impartial jury?  Dude was good as guilty before the opening statements started.  He'd have been better off fleeing the country.     To

Here’s a photo. It’s disturbing and I debated posting it here but I think it’s relevant and appropriate in response to your post: The photo appears to show a couple of Kyle Rittenhouse’s

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11 hours ago, lloyd christmas said:

Policing has been discussed in this thread before so I’ll drop this here.  

Sounds like the female officer involved in yesterday’s shooting of Daunte Wright thought she was firing her taser but fired her weapon instead.  It is another incident involving someone with a warrant resisting arrest.  But it’s still a very tragic incident for sure.  This happened just a few miles from where George Floyd was killed.  This couldn’t have happened in a worse place.  It’s going to be an interesting night in Minnesota.

I...

The video is out. How many times do DAs need to see the very likely "death penalty" result from fighting to get away from a police officer to just comply?

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21 hours ago, bfargin said:

The video is out. How many times do DAs need to see the very likely "death penalty" result from fighting to get away from a police officer to just comply?

Or, you know...she's the trained one with a weapon and a taser.

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5 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

Or, you know...she's the trained one with a weapon and a taser.

Baffling to me how military members, who would be willing to hang a soldier out to dry for this kind of mistake, somehow find a way to defend police who "accidently" shoot someone. 

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https://nypost.com/2021/04/10/marxist-blm-leader-buys-1-4-million-home-in-ritzy-la-enclave/

Quote

Patrisse Khan-Cullors, the leader of Black Lives Matter and a self-described Marxist, recently purchased a $1.4 million home in an exclusive Los Angeles neighborhood where the vast majority of residents are white, according to reports.

Follow the money.

Every time.

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6 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Baffling to me how military members, who would be willing to hang a soldier out to dry for this kind of mistake, somehow find a way to defend police who "accidentally" shoot someone. 

I've taken part in use of force scenario training a few times, and each time I had my eyes opened a little wider to what law enforcement deals with. If your local department ever offers it, please take up the chance.

In the first scenarios I ran, the Taser was strategically placed to be different than the firearm (chest mount). I saw people choose the wrong use of force that day, (wanted to shoot someone that could have been tased) but never saw someone mix the weapons up. However, I guess all departments don't run things that way, and its possible to have a setup where one could mix up the two, despite their training.

The video pretty clearly shows it's a fuckup, and whatever training/awareness failed. Two things are true here.

- His resisting arrest put himself (and others around him) in greater danger, and contributed to the circumstances that led to his death.

- The cop clearly pulled out the wrong weapon and as such, killed the individual. She made the trigger pull, she killed him. She's directly responsible for his death, and should be fired/face legal penalties.

However, let's not remove his culpability here. I wish all cops were quick thinking 160+ IQ individuals who get it right 100% of the time, but they aren't. They're average people with (in my opinion) average training. The closer you place them to a life-death split decision, the more that lack of training is going to become a problem.

Bottom line, don't fight the cops. Don't stress them out any more than necessary. Film/record them if necessary, and fight the legal battles later.

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Unfortunately this smells like lacking training combined with a stressful environment, with likely an increased perception of threat to herself or others (whether accurate or not). She fucked up and her resignation (firing if she hadn’t) followed by likely at least civil suit is understandable. But that said, no I’m not going to demonize her as a person because 

1. I wasn’t there and don’t know the situation first hand

2. I can’t count how many times highly trained individuals in the military employed the wrong weapon, employed on the wrong target, got confused where the bad guys and the friendlies were, etc. Shit happens in chaotic, stressful situations...training and reps is key to minimize risk of fuck ups. My perception is police at large do not get the amount of reps they should have given the situations they are likely to find themselves in.

3. Huge CF on the victim’s part. He’s not the RC, but he’d also be alive right now had he not done some things that I hope all of us would have been smart enough to avoid. 

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44 minutes ago, Kiloalpha said:

I've taken part in use of force scenario training a few times, and each time I had my eyes opened a little wider to what law enforcement deals with. If your local department ever offers it, please take up the chance.

In the first scenarios I ran, the Taser was strategically placed to be different than the firearm (chest mount). I saw people choose the wrong use of force that day, (wanted to shoot someone that could have been tased) but never saw someone mix the weapons up. However, I guess all departments don't run things that way, and its possible to have a setup where one could mix up the two, despite their training.

The video pretty clearly shows it's a fuckup, and whatever training/awareness failed. Two things are true here.

- His resisting arrest put himself (and others around him) in greater danger, and contributed to the circumstances that led to his death.

- The cop clearly pulled out the wrong weapon and as such, killed the individual. She made the trigger pull, she killed him. She's directly responsible for his death, and should be fired/face legal penalties.

However, let's not remove his culpability here. I wish all cops were quick thinking 160+ IQ individuals who get it right 100% of the time, but they aren't. They're average people with (in my opinion) average training. The closer you place them to a life-death split decision, the more that lack of training is going to become a problem.

Bottom line, don't fight the cops. Don't stress them out any more than necessary. Film/record them if necessary, and fight the legal battles later.

They won't be 160 IQ individuals...police departments have actually fought lawsuits so that they don't have to hire people who are "too smart".

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Bottom line, don't fight the cops. Don't stress them out any more than necessary. Film/record them if necessary, and fight the legal battles later.


That's easier said than done, especially when there's a perception (or in some cases, reality) that there are cops out there doing the wrong thing, whether it's unintentional or intentional.

I generally agree with your statement's intent, but there are bad cops out there as well who are willing to abuse their authority. That complicates the response from the civilian.

By the same token, Cops also shouldn't stress out the people (who likely have zero training in deescalating situations) any more than necessary either. De-escalation goes both ways.

Fighting the legal battle typically means you have the time and money to do so. Look at how messed up civil forfeiture laws are, especially regarding firearms.

I've been detained by SF when I knew I was clearly in the right, but they didn't understand the base policy (no line badge on the flighline as a TDY requal student at the FTU, base policy was TDY students only need CAC and flight auth, which I had and presented). Took everything I had to not lose my cool since we just got to our jet for an early morning sortie, and I'm generally non-confrontational. Funny thing was that the A1C cop was trying to tell his SrA partner that detained us that we were right, but the SrA berated the A1C for missing the email that "changed the policy last week" and refused to confirm the policy. So 3 pilots were wrongly detained and cuffed for over an hour and a half, marched off to sit on the edge of the flight line surrounded by what felt like was every SF airman on duty (around 10-12 SF to detain 3 pilots). We were only released after the OG/CC got involved (wtf call to the MSG) without so much as an apology acknowledging they were wrong. The other funny thing was they didn't even bother to check the civilian mx crew chief who was out there with us and didn't have his line badge displayed. SF clearly targeted is based on our group affiliation (pilots). I wanted to cancel the sortie, but one of the other students couldn't take a training delay since they were trying to close on a house and needed to make it out on our scheduled graduation day. But man, I wanted SF to take a cancelled sortie for being stupid (and FTU Sq/DO was good with us doing so via an ORM canx), especially given that the FTU had been running behind because a bunch of FTU IPs had recently gotten out to go to the airlines.

And now, right or wrong, anytime I see SF on the flightline my initial gut reaction is "F those guys."

And then you read about some rando hopping the fence at Andrews and walking a mile on the flight line and going onto one of the 89th jets that was left open...
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So the Congresswoman wants to end policing...yet she’s more than happy to support policies that has the police take away your AR-15s, by force if necessary.    
 

"Daunte Wright was met with aggression & violence. I am done with those who condone government funded murder," she said in a tweet.

"No more policing, incarceration, and militarization. It can’t be reformed."
 

https://news.yahoo.com/rashida-tlaib-calls-no-more-221355507.html

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2 hours ago, jazzdude said:

And now, right or wrong, anytime I see SF on the flightline my initial gut reaction is "F those guys."
 

A SrA acted like a SrA, and you felt embarassed/disrespected and wanted an apology?  Grow up.

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A SrA acted like a SrA, and you felt embarassed/disrespected and wanted an apology?  Grow up.
Didn't feel embarrassed or disrespected, just frustrated that my early morning alert sequence for my sortie got screwed because someone with authority didn't know their job and didn't own their mistake, regardless of either their rank or mine. Their parting words were to get a line badge (again, base policy didn't require it for TDY students). Also turns out SF's line badge printer hadn't worked in several months anyways, so I wouldn't have been able to get one even if I wanted one (hence the base's flightline policy).

I'm sure any flyer would be pissed if a support agency caused a delay to a mission or sortie because that support agency did their job wrong. Especially if that support agency asserts they did nothing wrong.

At a conscious level I know they (flight line SF) are doing their job, and most are probably decent people doing their best. But I still have that initial thought every time I see them on the flight line of "F the police" because of a bad run-in with them.

Then again, I've also been stopped when leaving base by SF and detained in my car for 15min or so because someone called in a suspicious person taking pictures on base. That time was much more cordial, though still equally stupid, as it was for an SF exercise, and the description of both the car and suspicious person weren't even close to my car or me. But they at least acknowledged their mistake before sending me on my way. They also treated me like a person throughout the interaction, and I don't have the same gut reaction to gate guards like I do for their flightline counterparts.

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4 hours ago, Kiloalpha said:

Two things are true here.

 

This. Everybody feels like they have to pick a side. There is no “right” side here. This is different from the Chauvin situation in that this was a split second fuckup, not nine minutes or whatever of kneeling on somebody’s neck. Should she have known the difference between a Glock and a taser? Absolutely. But she obviously intended to use non lethal force to subdue the subject. Not an excuse, but I do believe intent matters here. As far as the subject goes, in what world does running from the police ever work out? Best case is you get away, but the police know who you are and you wind up with additional warrants. Worse case? Well that’s exactly what happened here.  Even if the police interaction is obviously unfair and racist, running is not an option that will help you. Bottom line is both parties were in the wrong here. I’m a big proponent of police reform and consistently argue that racial bias does, in fact, exist in policing in the United States today. Let’s not dilute that cause by calling incidents like this one anything other than what they are: A tragic accident that was entirely preventable by both parties. 

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Damn Jazz, you did better than I would have.  I'd have called the OG/CC or WG/CC on their personal cell phone and had the SrA explain his fuckup to them.  I wouldn't have wanted an apology from him, as after that phone call it would have been a one way conversation about knowing your job before acting like and idiot (in the face of your partner giving you the correct info).  If I had missed my sortie, I'd have walked over to the SFS/CC and had a chat as well.

 

To the topic of the recent shooting, sure she fucked up, but dude would be alive if he hadn't resisted.  Let's see, warrant for attempted robbery and carrying a weapon without a permit.  Pulled over then begins a struggle with the cops for no apparent reason.  She may very well have saved another life had he gotten away and led them on a high speed chase, which it appears he'd have done...ya, not feeling bad for him. 

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6 hours ago, brabus said:

Unfortunately this smells like lacking training combined with a stressful environment, with likely an increased perception of threat to herself or others (whether accurate or not). She fucked up and her resignation (firing if she hadn’t) followed by likely at least civil suit is understandable. But that said, no I’m not going to demonize her as a person because 

1. I wasn’t there and don’t know the situation first hand

2. I can’t count how many times highly trained individuals in the military employed the wrong weapon, employed on the wrong target, got confused where the bad guys and the friendlies were, etc. Shit happens in chaotic, stressful situations...training and reps is key to minimize risk of fuck ups. My perception is police at large do not get the amount of reps they should have given the situations they are likely to find themselves in.

3. Huge CF on the victim’s part. He’s not the RC, but he’d also be alive right now had he not done some things that I hope all of us would have been smart enough to avoid. 

Agree very strongly with a lot of this. Defund the police is stupid, they need more training more often and more people.  There are cultural issues within the profession that I think are continuing to cause problems with getting the police somewhere the citizens want them to be.  There is a very strong appearance of no accountability, and we all know what appearances mean. 

I have a particular hard time seeing the value that police unions are bringing to solve this problem.

I am extremely empathetic to the young man's family and their pain.  Resisting shouldn't be a death sentence.

I watched that video and my heart sank and aches for the female officer.  Yes, what she did was wrong, but it wasn't what she intended and you can hear it in her voice immediately that she knew bad days were coming.  I'm also empathetic to what she's going through for reacting poorly in a stressful situation.  I can't imagine how she feels.

 

Everyone watched the video with the Army Lt yet?  That shit was infuriating.

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3 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

Everyone watched the video with the Army Lt yet?  That shit was infuriating.

Yep. The LT did an okay job in my opinion. He was a little testy at times, but who could blame him. 

That cop going for a felony stop over a  new car without plates? Plus “evading the police” if he was (as described to me) going 35 with blinkers on to find a well lit area? Total prick. He’s a bad lemon, and he’s been fired. That other cop was trying to help somewhat, which shows the force isn’t all bad.

The LT is about to have a big payday, the asshole got fired and no one was shot. Win-win.

Side note: the rush to make it a racial issue on social media was funny, until they realized the cop was Hispanic and the good cop was white. Then again, that article earlier in the thread said all problems are due to whiteness.

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8 hours ago, jazzdude said:

Stuff

My point is a SrA base cop acted like a SrA base cop.  They didn't know the rules?  I'm shocked.  

SocialD's inclination to talk to the SFS/CC was the correct one, regardless of missing the sortie.  

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My point is a SrA base cop acted like a SrA base cop.  They didn't know the rules?  I'm shocked.  
SocialD's inclination to talk to the SFS/CC was the correct one, regardless of missing the sortie.  


And my point is that screw ups by police (doesn't matter if they're a SrA or a MSgt SF, or a new cop or someone who has been in the police force for 20 years), whether accidental or intentional, damages the relationship with the public, and can create distrust of the police in individuals. That distrust takes time to repair, and takes positive action from the police (or authorities in general) to rebuild that trust.

The fact that you're not shocked that an SrA cop who didn't know one of the basic parts of their job, did not take input from their partner that they might be wrong, and was unwilling to call for advice to clarify the policy is disappointing. I don't expect a SrA to be an expert, but I do expect them to know their basic job and to ask for help if they don't know the answer. (I mean, I have the same expectation from the SrA ATC controller in tower/approach, so why should SF be held to a lower standard...)

Talking to the SFS/CC would've done zip. OG had a call with the MSG (that got my situation resolved), and I'm sure crap rolled downhill. Nothing really (good) would come from random TDY pilot trying to talk to the SFS/CC that hasn't already come down from the MSG, no matter how good it'd feel to say WTF or vent in the moment. Strongly considered it, but ultimately decided it wasn't worth doing so in this case.
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i think cops need to stop trying to use small infractions as excuses to escalate.

doesn't seem to be worth it for obvious strategic purposes. if the guy has a warrant out fine, go get him, but all these ticky tack stops seem to escalate into something major.

and if he gets in the car and drives off fine...let him...you know where he lives why not pick a better moment to grab him? shooting him "accidentally" is just not acceptable (obviously), and i think the charge was appropriate for the officer.

new era of policing is here and it seems that departments are slow to recognize this fundamental shift. gotta pick your bat......fuck....

 

but for real they need to start looking at the strategic consequences of these stops and might want to start de-escalating some of them more often.

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1 hour ago, jazzdude said:

 damages the relationship with the public, and can create distrust of the police in individuals. 

 I have the same expectation from the SrA ATC controller in tower/approach, so why should SF be held to a lower standard.

OG had a call with the MSG (that got my situation resolved), and I'm sure crap rolled downhill.

You aren't the public WRT a base cop.  It's different, and I think you know that.  Practically, the worst thing they're gonna do is waste your time and tell dad on you.

That SrA cop isn't any different than a defensive student that gets backed into a corner and refuses to budge.  Know the threat, and react accordingly.

If the OG got involved, then all you can do is assume it's taken care of until proven otherwise.  I took re-qual to mean you are coming off a staff gig and are an O4/O5.

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You aren't the public WRT a base cop.  It's different, and I think you know that.  Practically, the worst thing they're gonna do is waste your time and tell dad on you.
That SrA cop isn't any different than a defensive student that gets backed into a corner and refuses to budge.  Know the threat, and react accordingly.
If the OG got involved, then all you can do is assume it's taken care of until proven otherwise.  I took re-qual to mean you are coming off a staff gig and are an O4/O5.

It's a close parallel. Better comparison here would be a security guard. But the situation is very close to a cop accusing a civilian of trespassing even though the civilian has a right to be at a particular location (like private property the civilian owns).

SF can do a lot more than waste your time, especially if they're jumpy and you get frustrated and show it. They also carry tasers and are armed. Though there are some military unique characteristics that help tamp escalation.

I'd bet SF get more training than the average civilian police officer, and punishments can be harsher than the civilian world (through the addition of UCMJ punishments, and if they screw up bad they could be dishonorably discharged, which will follow them for the rest of their life, unlike getting fired from a civilian job). This is something that helps reduce bad interactions between SF and the rest of the military/public as compared to civilian police.

I'd bet military members are more compliant with authority in general compared to the general public because of our training and culture. And as an officer, I know that if I'm in the right, all I have to do is wait and trust that the chain of command will fix the issue. So all I have to do is get back to my circle and wait it out. This helps reduce the chance of escalation, so long as I keep my cool.

A civilian generally doesn't have someone with authority/power (like a military commander) to put pressure on law enforcement to correct problems unless they have the time and money to litigate, their story makes the news and creates public outcry, or they are politically connected with government leaders. If you're poor, none of those options are likely. And bad cops know this as well, which can lead them to abuse their power, especially if they're department is stretched thin and supervisory controls are lacking.

Difference from a defensive student backed into a corner is that the defensive student has no authority; but the cop does (regardless of rank based on their positional authority). The power balance is different with a student: you as the instructor have authority over the student based on your position, so if the student gets mouthy you can just tell them to shut up and color (though probably not the best instructional technique, especially if your student outranks you or is a commander). Try doing that to an SF cop and it probably won't end well for you, even if the cop is wrong.

Contrast that with an over zealous chief, who has zero authority over officers, and basically just waste a bit of your time. They can't detain you, and aren't armed, so the worst that can come out of that interaction is them yelling at you. The most they can do is try to convince someone with authority to do something with you, which may or may not happen.

Was a newly pinned on major (just pinned on the month this happened) going from UPT IP back to the C-17. Altus SF sucks (seem to be over zealous because of how boring it is out there, and not just on the flightline but traffic enforcement as well), and I know I'm not the only person who thinks that.
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3 hours ago, jazzdude said:

.....Stuff that supports my argument that your interaction with SF is very different than anyone's interaction with an offbase cop............

Difference from a defensive student backed into a corner is that the defensive student has no authority ........ (though probably not the best instructional technique, especially if your student outranks you or is a commander). ...........

Was a newly pinned on major 

Copy, so a base cop is different than off base.  For what it's worth I have a substantial libertarian type bias against police, so I get your impulse.  

It's the same mindset, and it's human nature.  In one case you have an additional "STF" option, the other you don't.  In both cases, STF is rarely the first choice.  So know the threat and react accordingly.

Talking to the CC doesn't mean you have to be a dickhead (it almost never works anyway), and is easier if you're the same rank.  But, an FGO to FGO talk about something you noticed during an interaction with one of said commander's troops doesn't have to be a bad thing.  If you came to me to tell me one of my guys was being a little shit, I'd listen and file it away to see what may need to be done to mentor said troop (in this case that it's ok to be wrong if you fix it, but it's not ok to be an asshole).  If you came into my office ranting and demanding something, I'd tell you to fuck off and get out.

Something I learned dealing with the Army (granted, as a LtCol and group deputy): don't argue with the enlisted troops, don't plead your case to a CGO.  As a LtCol, I talk to CCs/O5s and above.  If it's worth my time, it's worth theirs. 

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3 hours ago, jazzdude said:

.....Stuff that supports my argument that your interaction with SF is very different than anyone's interaction with an offbase cop............

Difference from a defensive student backed into a corner is that the defensive student has no authority ........ (though probably not the best instructional technique, especially if your student outranks you or is a commander). ...........

Was a newly pinned on major 

Copy, so a base cop is different than off base.  For what it's worth I have a substantial libertarian type bias against police, so I get your impulse.  

It's the same mindset, and it's human nature.  In one case you have an additional "STF" option, the other you don't.  In both cases, STF is rarely the first choice.  So know the threat and react accordingly.

Talking to the CC doesn't mean you have to be a dickhead (it almost never works anyway), and is easier if you're the same rank.  But, an FGO to FGO talk about something you noticed during an interaction with one of said commander's troops doesn't have to be a bad thing.  If you came to me to tell me one of my guys was being a little shit, I'd listen and file it away to see what may need to be done to mentor said troop (in this case that it's ok to be wrong if you fix it, but it's not ok to be an asshole).  If you came into my office ranting and demanding something, I'd tell you to fuck off and get out.

Something I learned dealing with the Army (granted, as a LtCol and group deputy): don't argue with the enlisted troops, don't plead your case to a CGO.  As a LtCol, I talk to CCs/O5s and above.  If it's worth my time, it's worth theirs. 

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Unfortunately the common denominator here is the brutal truth that both civilian cops and SF troops average to slightly below average people with average to slightly below average training. This is not to take away from their selflessness and dedication but let's be honest here and acknowledge this isn't the cream of the crop we're dealing with. If you have the aptitude to be a surgeon or a pilot or a navy seal you probably aren't going to be a cop. 

These people are not smooth operators who make perfect split second decisions in times of stress. This is why you should do everything in your power to never give the cops a reason to interact with you and ruin your day.. or much worse.  I set my cruise control on base to 1mph below the speed limit and stop for excessively long a stop signs precisely for this reason.  Do not give these jabronis a reason to enter your life.

 

If you do get stopped, then you have to mind your p's and q's even more to keep the situation on the rails.  This understanding seems to be lost lately as everyone would rather start flipping out and filming with their phone instead of staying calm.  This fuels bad reactions on the part of the police, which then fuels a media narrative, when then fuels more bad behavior by suspects who are convinced they're going to be summarily shot for no reason.
 

This self licking ice cream cone is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

 

 

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