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3 minutes ago, dogfish78 said:

While my intent is not to argue for or against Lee, his quote on our Federal government having too much power is what I intended to ring home with the post. I imagine you'd agree with that in itself.

Context is important. Lee is warning about government having the power to free the slaves. 

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6 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Context is important. Lee is warning about government having the power to free the slaves. 

Again, I don't intend to discuss for or against. Merely the quote as it stands about a central power having too MUCH power. The end of the quote references empires before, not related to the U.S. A gun can be used for bad, as it can be used for good. In the context of the quote's meaning alone, it holds weight that an all too powerful central government leads to bad things.

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On 8/16/2021 at 6:22 PM, RedEye1911 said:

Didn't the union states of Delaware, Kentucky, and New Jersey still have slaves throughout the whole war and even after it ended? Strange thing if the war was only about slavery.

Funny how they wrote "state rights" instead of "slavery" on the Confederate Dead Monument in Austin.

1146641645_Screenshot2021-08-16171502.png

State's rights to do...what?

I'll find you some of the articles of secession when I'm at my computer...not even subtle.

Edit: Found a whole list - 

 

Quote
  • Richard Thompson Archer (Mississippi planter): "The South is invaded. It is time for all patriots to be united, to be under military organization, to be advancing to the conflict determined to live or die in defence of the God given right to own the African"---letter to the Vicksburg Sun, Dec. 8, 185
  • Atlanta Confederacy, 1860: "We regard every man in our midst an enemy to the institutions of the South, who does not boldly declare that he believes African slavery to be a social, moral, and political blessing."
  • Lawrence Keitt, Congressman from South Carolina, in a speech to the House on January 25, 1860: "African slavery is the corner-stone of the industrial, social, and political fabric of the South; and whatever wars against it, wars against her very existence. Strike down the institution of African slavery and you reduce the South to depopulation and barbarism." Later in the same speech he said, "The anti-slavery party contend that slavery is wrong in itself, and the Government is a consolidated national democracy. We of the South contend that slavery is right, and that this is a confederate Republic of sovereign States." Taken from a photocopy of the Congressional Globe supplied by Steve Miller.
  • Keitt again, this time as delegate to the South Carolina secession convention, during the debates on the state's declaration of causes: "Our people have come to this on the question of slavery. I am willing, in that address to rest it upon that question. I think it is the great central point from which we are now proceeding, and I am not willing to divert the public attention from it." Taken from the Charleston, South Carolina, Courier, dated Dec. 22, 1860. See the Furman documents site for more transcription from these debates. Keitt became a colonel in the Confederate army and was killed at Cold Harbor on June 1, 1864.
  • Senator John J. Crittenden, Kentucky (Democrat), March 2, 1861, (Congressional Globe, page 1376); "Mr. President, the cause of this great discontent in the country, the cause of the evils which we now suffer and which we now fear, originates chiefly from questions growing out of the respective rights of the different States and the unfortunate subject of slavery..."
  • Henry M. Rector, Governor of Arkansas, March 2, 1861, Arkansas Secession Convention, p. 44 "The area of slavery must be extended correlative with its antagonism, or it will be put speedily in the 'course of ultimate extinction.'....The extension of slavery is the vital point of the whole controversy between the North and the South...Amendments to the federal constitution are urged by some as a panacea for all the ills that beset us. That instrument is amply sufficient as it now stands, for the protection of Southern rights, if it was only enforced. The South wants practical evidence of good faith from the North, not mere paper agreements and compromises. They believe slavery a sin, we do not, and there lies the trouble."
  • Thomas F. Goode, Mecklenburg County, Virginia, March 28, 1861, Virginia Secession Convention, vol. II, p. 518, "Sir, the great question which is now uprooting this Government to its foundation---the great question which underlies all our deliberations here, is the question of African slavery..."
  • William Grimball to Elizabeth Grimball, Nov. 20, 1860: "A stand must be made for African slavery or it is forever lost." [James McPherson, For Cause and Comrades, p. 20]
  • William Nugent to Eleanor Nugent, Sept 7, 1863: "This country without slave labor would be completely worthless. We can only live & exist by that species of labor; and hence I am willing to fight for the last." [James McPherson, For Cause and Comrades, p. 107]
  • William M. Thomson to Warner A. Thomson, Feb. 2, 1861: "Better, far better! endure all the horrors of civil war than to see the dusky sons of Ham leading the fair daughters of the South to the altar." [James McPherson, For Cause and Comrades, p. 19]
  • George Hamill, March, 1862: "I never want to see the day when a negro is put on an equality with a white person. There is too many free ******s. . . now to suit me, let alone having four millions." [Diary quoted in James McPherson, For Cause and Comrades, p. 109]
  • Methodist Rev. John T. Wightman, preaching at Yorkville, South Carolina: "The triumphs of Christianity rest this very hour upon slavery; and slavery depends on the triumphs of the South . . . This war is the servant of slavery." [The Glory of God, the Defence of the South (1861), cited in Eugene Genovese's Consuming Fire (1998).]
  • G. T. Yelverton, of Coffee County, Alabama, speaking to the Alabama Secession Convention on January 25, 1861: "The question of Slavery is the rock upon which the Old Government split: it is the cause of secession."
  • S. C. Posey, Lauderdale County, Alabama, speaking to the Alabama Secession Convention on Jan. 25, 1861: "Mr. President, the fierce strife we have had with the Northern States, which has led to the disruption of the Government, is a trumpet-tongued answer to this question. They have declared, by the election of Lincoln, “There shall be no more slave territory–no more slave States.” To this the Cotton States have responded by acts of secession and a Southern Confederacy; which is but a solemn declaration of these States, that they will not submit to the Northern idea of restricting slavery to its present limits, and confining it to the slave States."
  • John Tyler Morgan, Dallas Cy., Alabama: speaking to the Alabama Secession Convention on January 25, 1861: "The Ordinance of Secession rests, in a great measure, upon our assertion of a right to enslave the African race, or, what amounts to the same thing, to hold them in slavery."
  • Jefferson Buford, Barbour County, Alabama, speaking to the Alabama Secession Convention, on March 4, 1861: "Now, Mr. President, I submit that while our commission is of much higher import and dignity, it is, in one respect, by no means so broad. We are sent to protect, not so much property, as white supremacy, and the great political right of internal self-control---but only against one specified and single danger alone, i.e. the danger of Abolition rule."
  • Pvt. Thomas Taylor, 6th Ala., to his parents, March 4, 1862: "we are ruined if we do not put forth all our energies & drive back the invaders of our slavery South." (Chandra Manning, What This Cruel War Was Over, p. 66).
  • Pvt. Jonathan Doyle, 4th La., to Maggie, May 27, 1863: "We must never despair, for death is preferable to a life spent under the gaulling [sic] yoke of abolition rule." (Chandra Manning, What This Cruel War Was Over, p. 108).
  • Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy, referring to the Confederate government: "Its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery . . . is his natural and normal condition." [Augusta, Georgia, Daily Constitutionalist, March 30, 1861.]
  • On the formation of black regiments in the Confederate army, by promising the troops their freedom:
    • A North Carolina newspaper editorial: "it is abolition doctrine . . . the very doctrine which the war was commenced to put down." [North Carolina Standard, Jan. 17, 1865; cited in Battle Cry of Freedom, p. 835.]
    • Robert M.T. Hunter, Senator from Virginia, "What did we go to war for, if not to protect our property?"
  • Senator William Bigler, Pennsylvania, January 21, 1861: "The fundamental cause of the imperiled condition of the country is the institution of African servitude, ...." [36th Cong., 2nd Sess., Congressional Globe, p. 489]
     
  • Alfred P. Aldrich, South Carolina legislator from Barnwell: "If the Republican party with its platform of principles, the main feature of which is the abolition of slavery and, therefore, the destruction of the South, carries the country at the next Presidential election, shall we remain in the Union, or form a separate Confederacy? This is the great, grave issue. It is not who shall be President, it is not which party shall rule --- it is a question of political and social existence." [Steven Channing, Crisis of Fear, pp. 141-142.]
  • John C. Pelot, delegate from Alachua County to the Florida secession convention, January 3, 1861: "Gentlemen of the Convention: We meet together under no ordinary circumstances.The rapid spread of Northern fanaticism has endangered our liberties and institutions, and the election of Abraham Lincoln, a wily abolitionist, to the Presidency of the United States, destroys all hope for the future." [Journal of the convention, p. 3]
  • John B. Baldwin, Augusta County delegate to the Virginia Secession Convention, March 21, 1861: "I say, then, that viewed from that standpoint, there is but one single subject of complaint which Virginia has to make against the government under which we live; a complaint made by the whole South, and that is on the subject of African slavery...." [Journal of the Virginia Secession Convention, Vol. II, p. 139]
    Baldwin again: "But, sir, the great cause of complaint now is the slavery question, and the questions growing out of it. If there is any other cause of complaint which has been influential in any quarter, to bring about the crisis which is now upon us; if any State or any people have made the troubles growing out of this question, a pretext for agitation instead of a cause of honest complaint, Virginia can have no sympathy whatever, in any such feeling, in any such policy, in any such attempt. It is the slavery question. Is it not so?..." [ibid, p. 140]
  • From the diary of James B. Lockney, 28th Wisconsin Infantry, writing near Arkadelphia, Arkansas (10/29/63): "Last night I talked awhile to those men who came in day before yesterday from the S.W. part of the state about 120 miles distant. Many of them wish Slavery abolished & slaves out of the country as they said it was the cause of the War, and the Curse of our Country & the foe of the body of the people--the poor whites. They knew the Slave masters got up the war expressly in the interests of the institution, & with no real cause from the Government or the North."

And from the declarations of secession:

South Carolina - "

“These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

“We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign [sic] the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection."

Mississippi - "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery – the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin."

Texas - “In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, 
now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color – a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States."

Virginia - “The people of Virginia in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression, and the Federal Government having perverted said powers not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slave-holding States.”

So again...all about state's rights TO OWN HUMAN BEINGS.

Edited by pawnman
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2 hours ago, pawnman said:

State's rights to do...what?

I'll find you some of the articles of secession when I'm at my computer...not even subtle.

Not attempting to derail the thread into a U.S. Civil War 1.0 discussion, but to respond to your question the United States' Constitution in 1861, Amendment 10 stated "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." That was the overarching reason leading to the CSA's secession; their secession wasn't something that happened overnight. It was due to decades of having their 10th Amendment right being trampled upon by the federal government. I also suggest you reference the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions of 1798 for the justification of nullification of illegal federal "laws". It's the same thing we're seeing now with several states passing Second Amendment Preservation Act bills into law; the states/the people are fed up with an out of control federal government.

We can argue back and forth eternally about the morality of some people in the South having slaves, but there were slaves in the north too, during and even AFTER the war as @RedEye1911mentioned. Blacks in Africa were enslaving and selling blacks to Europeans, to which the Europeans brought them to North America and Europe. African blacks are still enslaving each other to this day. Whites were being enslaved by the Ottoman Empire even after the U.S. Civil War was over.

I suggest you listen to some videos of Thomas Sowell. The guy is someone blacks should be listening to, not Soros funded Burn Loot Murder admitted stooges.

sowell.jpg

Edited by dogfish78
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23 minutes ago, Guardian said:


Explain

I worked two separate flights this week where an individual became confrontational with a flight attendant regarding mask wear.  One was physical and we requested the police upon arrival.  The second was verbal and the customer service supervisor we requested at the gate (just in case) elected to bring law enforcement with them.  

Flight crew are being put in a shitty spot with regard to this mask mandate and tensions continue to get worse. But none of that is news.

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3 hours ago, pawnman said:

Is there some far-right website where these are collected, or do you just have a whole folder of these memes and infographics on your computer?

Imagine thinking it's far-right to believe the statements on that infographic 🤣

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14 minutes ago, dogfish78 said:

Imagine thinking it's far-right to believe the statements on that infographic 🤣

Well, there's this one, there's Gen Milley wearing make-up, there's the convoluted one about the Fed, there's the one from Robert E Lee...it's just starting to add up.  

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21 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Well, there's this one, there's Gen Milley wearing make-up, there's the convoluted one about the Fed, there's the one from Robert E Lee...it's just starting to add up.  

Dude, don’t do it to yourself.  Just ignore it, most everyone else here does, helps keep the threads more on point.

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Update after getting my first Pfizer shot a week ago, I woke up yesterday with moderate pain in my right arm pit and sort of a pinched nerve (tingly) feeling in my arm all day (arm I got the shot in).  I could barely touch the area.  Wound up identifying it as a swollen lymph node, which is apparently normal and means the vaccine is "working".  In over 2+ pages of vaccination record, I've never gotten that side effect from any other vaccine I've received over the last 19+ years.  Pain relievers helped.  Today, the pain and tingling is pretty much gone.  I love being a science experiment!  Hopefully it's worth it.

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53 minutes ago, TheNewGazmo said:

Update after getting my first Pfizer shot a week ago, I woke up yesterday with moderate pain in my right arm pit and sort of a pinched nerve (tingly) feeling in my arm all day (arm I got the shot in).  I could barely touch the area.  Wound up identifying it as a swollen lymph node, which is apparently normal and means the vaccine is "working".  In over 2+ pages of vaccination record, I've never gotten that side effect from any other vaccine I've received over the last 19+ years.  Pain relievers helped.  Today, the pain and tingling is pretty much gone.  I love being a science experiment!  Hopefully it's worth it.

It's not really a science experiment..but it's a gold mine for multiple researchers covering subjects from abnormal psych to advanced biochem...statistics..you name it.  It's not often that you get a huge cohort that will participate in a refusal of treatment that may save their life..when the endpoint may be death.....(but sooo hard on the medics)   BTW  my wife reported arm pain for a few weeks  and a friend had it for a few days..

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28 minutes ago, Alpharatz said:

It's not really a science experiment..but it's a gold mine for multiple researchers covering subjects from abnormal psych to advanced biochem...statistics..you name it.  It's not often that you get a huge cohort that will participate in a refusal of treatment that may save their life..when the endpoint may be death.....(but sooo hard on the medics)   BTW  my wife reported arm pain for a few weeks  and a friend had it for a few days..

It is both a science experiment and a researcher's goldmine. 

Edited by dogfish78
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Another case study from Singapore which concluded that "The mRNA vaccines are highly effective at preventing symptomatic and severe COVID-19 associated with B.1.617.2 infection. Vaccination is associated with faster decline in viral RNA load and a robust serological response. Vaccination remains a key strategy for control of COVID-19 pandemic.".

I like finding studies out of other countries because it (at least I think) takes the politicism out of the equation:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1

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On 4/17/2020 at 10:41 AM, Pooter said:

These horror stories of police arresting people on the beach or dragging people out of church are way overblown.  The media is going to over-report anything that will get views and outrage--similar to how they wayyyyy over-report police shootings of minorities.  

Regardless, I think this 'gubment better not take my rights' argument is really alarmist and simplistic.  The government doesn't want to be arresting solo beach goers just as much as said beach goers don't want to be arrested.  And how is this any different from a mandatory hurricane evacuation order?  The government tells people what they can and can't do all the time, and once the crisis passes, things return to normal.  Acting like this is some kind of slippery slope to a 1984 dystopian hellscape is pretty ridiculous. 

I'd even argue that the current crisis gives police better justification to arrest people not following the rules than a hurricane does.  If you disregard a mandatory evacuation at least the only person you're hurting is yourself.  In a pandemic, someone's flagrant disregard of public health guidance endangers other people too.  Do others have a constitutional right to not be infected by idiots who refuse to follow the rules?

 

Full disclosure: If it wasn't possible for church goers to infect others, I'd be all for them voluntarily gathering in the largest groups possible.  Disregarding public health guidance to worship your imaginary man in the sky is a beautiful example of both constitutional rights and natural selection.  

This post did NOT age well 🤡

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