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On 4/2/2020 at 8:33 PM, Blue said:

Yeah, this.  Sounded like it wasn't so much the fact that he sent the letter asking for help.  That was OK.

Everything I've read makes it sound like they guy sent it via unclassified channels, to his boss on the To: line and everyone and their mother on cc:  That's what got him fired.

So sending it on official Navy channels, to Navy officials, is "too public"?

Or they think it should have been on SIPR... Like they were going to disguise an aircraft carrier parking at Guam for two weeks?

I think every one of us just got yet another glimpse into how expendable military members are to the political class.

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46 minutes ago, pawnman said:

So sending it on official Navy channels, to Navy officials, is "too public"?

Or they think it should have been on SIPR... Like they were going to disguise an aircraft carrier parking at Guam for two weeks?

I think every one of us just got yet another glimpse into how expendable military members are to the political class.

Per the SECNAV...

Quote

"But there is a larger strategic context, one full of national security imperatives, of which all our commanders must all be aware today. While we may not be at war in a traditional sense, neither are we truly at peace. Authoritarian regimes are on the rise. Many nations are reaching, in many ways, to reduce our capacity to accomplish our national goals. This is actively happening every day. It has been a long time since the Navy and Marine Corps team has faced this broad array of capable global strategic challengers. A more agile and resilient mentality is necessary, up and down the chain of command."

And...

Quote

"It is important to understand that the Strike Group Commander, the CO’s immediate boss, is embarked on the Theodore Roosevelt, right down the passageway from him. The letter was sent over non- secure, unclassified email even though that ship possesses some of the most sophisticated communications and encryption equipment in the Fleet."

https://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=112537

To summarize, he had better choices...

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2 minutes ago, M2 said:

Per the SECNAV...

And...

https://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=112537

To summarize, he had better choices...

I think there is more to the story but the fact that his immediate boss is on the boat with him leads me to believe that he was not getting the support he needed. At the end of the day though I think the smudge is still on the Navy's face. This dude was cheered off his boat and in the realm of public opinion he is a hero. He will find plenty of post retirement oppurtunities. But the common sentiment amongst Navy sailors now is that their service doesn't have their back, and that weighs on their morale and retention. 

 

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3 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I think there is more to the story but the fact that his immediate boss is on the boat with him leads me to believe that he was not getting the support he needed. At the end of the day though I think the smudge is still on the Navy's face. This dude was cheered off his boat and in the realm of public opinion he is a hero. He will find plenty of post retirement oppurtunities. But the common sentiment amongst Navy sailors now is that their service doesn't have their back, and that weighs on their morale and retention. 

Who the hell knows?  I don't think it was a bright idea to go public with his email, whether by him or one of the many people cc'd on it (another not-so-bright idea).  Embarrassing your chain of command is never going to help your career (and as a carrier commander, he had some career left).

I suspect there's more to this story that we'll never hear, but just because the crew cheered him on his departure doesn't necessarily mean he was a great skipper.  Hell, the mere fact that they're all jammed together to do so when there's allegedly so many COVID-19 cases aboard makes me wonder about the situation in general!

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4 hours ago, M2 said:

Who the hell knows?  I don't think it was a bright idea to go public with his email, whether by him or one of the many people cc'd on it (another not-so-bright idea).  Embarrassing your chain of command is never going to help your career (and as a carrier commander, he had some career left).

I suspect there's more to this story that we'll never hear, but just because the crew cheered him on his departure doesn't necessarily mean he was a great skipper.  Hell, the mere fact that they're all jammed together to do so when there's allegedly so many COVID-19 cases aboard makes me wonder about the situation in general!

Sure, no one knows everything that happened, but I would say based off the summation of my experiences, there is a strong enough possibility that the chain of command needed to/deserved to be embarrassed that I am willing to give the Captain the benefit of the doubt on this one. We live in an era of totally inept military leadership and in all likelihood his superiors were probably ready to sacrifice the crew to the pyre of readiness for a cause that quite honestly isn't matriculating. We have to remember our adversaries are impacted by these events as much as we are and its unlikely China or Russia step up and say "oh man! ONE WHOLE aircraft carrier is down for 2 weeks, I'm going to launch my invasion of Taiwan!" I think we also tend to overstate the firepower a carrier even brings to a major operation. Its not that its insignificant but a fixed air base can certainly generate substantially more. 

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Crozier for President? Kidding, but the parallels in this instance are fascinating. Here is a letter written by T. Roosevelt. He also circulated it among the press.

Quote

MAJOR-GENERAL SHAFTER. SIR: In a meeting of the general and medical officers called by you at the Palace this morning we were all, as you know, unanimous in our views of what should be done with the army. To keep us here, in the opinion of every officer commanding a division or a brigade, will simply involve the destruction of thousands.

There is no possible reason for not shipping practically the entire command North at once. Yellow-fever cases are very few in the cavalry division, where I command one of the two brigades, and not one true case of yellow fever has occurred in this division, except among the men sent to the hospital at Siboney, where they have, I believe, contracted it. But in this division there have been 1,500 cases of malarial fever. Hardly a man has yet died from it, but the whole command is so weakened and shattered as to be ripe for dying like rotten sheep, when a real yellow-fever epidemic instead of a fake epidemic, like the present one, strikes us, as it is bound to do if we stay here at the height of the sickness season, August and the beginning of September.

Quarantine against malarial fever is much like quarantining against the toothache. All of us are certain that as soon as the authorities at Washington fully appreciate the condition of the army, we shall be sent home. If we are kept here it will in all human possibility mean an appalling disaster, for the surgeons here estimate that over half the army, if kept here during the sickly season, will die.

This is not only terrible from the standpoint of the individual lives lost, but it means ruin from the standpoint of military efficiency of the flower of the American army, for the great bulk of the regulars are here with you. The sick list, large though it is, exceeding four thousand, affords but a faint index of the debilitation of the army. Not ten per cent are fit for active work.

Six weeks on the North Maine coast, for instance, or elsewhere where the yellow-fever germ cannot possibly propagate, would make us all as fit as fighting-cocks, as able as we are eager to take a leading part in the great campaign against Havana in the fall, even if we are not allowed to try Porto Rico. We can be moved North, if moved at once, with absolute safety to the country, although, of course, it would have been infinitely better if we had been moved North or to Puerto Rico two weeks ago. If there were any object in keeping us here, we would face yellow fever with as much indifference as we faced bullets. But there is no object.

The four immune regiments ordered here are sufficient to garrison the city and surrounding towns, and there is absolutely nothing for us to do here, and there has not been since the city surrendered. It is impossible to move into the interior. Every shifting of camp doubles the sick rate in our present weakened condition, and, anyhow, the interior is rather worse than the coast, as I have found by actual reconnoissance.

Our present camps are as healthy as any camps at this end of the island can be. I write only because I cannot see our men, who have fought so bravely and who have endured extreme hardship and danger so uncomplainingly, go to destruction without striving so far as lies in me to avert a doom as fearful as it is unnecessary and undeserved.

Yours respectfully, THEODORE ROOSEVELT, Colonel Commanding Second Cavalry Brigade.

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/04/04/theodore-roosevelt-captain-followed-in-footsteps-of-ships-namesake-by-writing-bombshell-letter/

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The Crozier situation has sparked many illuminating conversations up and down the chain.  No, we don’t know all details but the core issues ring true to anyone who has experienced mid-level authority in the military: line commander lacks ability to decisively solve a time-sensitive crisis, and explores unconventional options to address inadequate senior leadership.  

Most people who run into these experiences never pass from “explore” into “execute” phase; they stop upon realizing the cost of a solution doesn’t match the gravity of their situation.  Crozier was experiencing something unprecedented in our times; who here can know how they would handle it?

My personal thoughts: I’d rather work for people like Crozier than the people who fired him.  And I’d rather be an O6 fired for helping his troops than an O10 protecting the system.  Our greatest military resource is our people; not our machines and not our OPSEC.

Edited by tac airlifter
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It was an odd move by Modly, something many of us weren't expecting.  Modly does make several points, but so does Crozier and as I've said the latter had other options to address the issues.  If and when we ever learn the truth, which I doubt we will, we'll know who was indeed correct in their actions.

It all goes back to what you are willing to fall on your sword for, and is it worth it.  Ronald Fogleman did so primarily for Terry Schwalier (although his handling of the Kelly Flinn case pissed off some politicians as well) and while he did set an unprecedented precedent in the USAF in terms of holding personnel to higher standards, that seems to have gotten forgotten over time.

Fogleman remains one of the two best CSAFs during my 25 year career (JJ Jumper being the other), and I still have great respect for the man; but such nobility is almost wasted on many of the civilian leadership of this nation.  If Crozier was attempting to do the same, than good on him; but I for one am not 100% sure what his objective was with this move nor do I feel it puts him in the same boat (pun intended) with the man his ship was named after.   Maybe TR's actions in 1898 are what prompted Crozier to try the same, but these are different times and as he learned the tough way, different leadership.

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Curious as to why the firing went all the way to acting SECNAV.  There's a slew of military chain of command (you know, the one Crozier was relieved for ignoring) admirals who could've done the deed.

Why did this go up to a temporary political appointee?

 

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2 hours ago, brickhistory said:

Curious as to why the firing went all the way to acting SECNAV.  There's a slew of military chain of command (you know, the one Crozier was relieved for ignoring) admirals who could've done the deed.

Why did this go up to a temporary political appointee?

 

How does the Air Force chain of command handle it when lower ranks elevate issues, ask for changes that involves a small amount of risk in judgement? Dodge, Delay, Deny, Defend, and Punt.

Does anyone think Crozier's first attempt at getting resolution was a blast unsecure email?

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1 hour ago, torqued said:

How does the Air Force chain of command handle it when lower ranks elevate issues, ask for changes that involves a small amount of risk in judgement? Dodge, Delay, Deny, Defend, and Punt.

Does anyone think Crozier's first attempt at getting resolution was a blast unsecure email?

No, no, no......it’s the “FIVE Ds”: Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, & Dodge. 
 

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22 hours ago, M2 said:

Fogleman remains one of the two best CSAFs during my 25 year career (JJ Jumper being the other), and I still have great respect for the man; but such nobility is almost wasted on many of the civilian leadership of this nation. 

Glad to see another Ron Fogleman fan and totally agree as being one of the best.  He brought back "Crud" to the Polly bar when he became the Division CC at DM in '85.

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"Pentagon to announce new face mask guidance: Esper"; ????

"The Pentagon will soon announce a new policy requiring face masks for military personnel, Defense Secretary Mark Esper said Sunday on ABC's "This Week."

“We will have a directive coming up on that today,” Secretary of Defense Mark Esper told ABC News Chief Anchor George Stephanopoulos. “Now we're going to move towards face covering.”

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pentagon-announce-face-mask-guidance-esper/story?id=69980787

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And where are all these masks coming from??


Better question... How are all these masks getting to deployed personnel at location X/Y/Z.

We’re having conversations about rationing flight hours and not being able to get back filled on parts that might cause breaks in mission because of flights in/out of country. Now you’re telling me we are gonna get a C17 full of F’ing masks to some of these outlier places?


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6 hours ago, Sim said:

No one is going to mention that during pandemic, caption allowed his crew to disembark in foreign port and infect the crew? 

It's not like it was a unilateral decision.  It was a scheduled port call.  And again, his immediate boss was on the ship.  Does anyone think his boss said "don't stop in Vietnam" and he did it anyway?

Edit to add: at the time they disembarked the ship in Vietnam, the country had fewer than ten cases total.  It was before the travel ban from China.  It was before Italy had their first case.  It wasn't the height of the epidemic.

Edited by pawnman
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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/05/magazine/navy-captain-crozier-positive-coronavirus.html

Quote

Capt. Brett E. Crozier, the Navy captain who was removed from command of the coronavirus-stricken aircraft carrier U.S.S. Theodore Roosevelt, has tested positive for Covid-19, according to two Naval Academy classmates of Crozier’s who are close to him and his family.

 

Edited by dotonfire
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22 hours ago, Prozac said:

No, no, no......it’s the “FIVE Ds”: Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, & Dodge. 

Take care of your balls, and they'll take care of you!

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