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COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)


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5 minutes ago, FLEA said:

It's going to be different for every individual based on their risk. The government would need to cover much higher liability for a 21yo female collegiate athlete than for an 82yo male retiree with liver disease. 

And it's going to be nuanced in every situation. Maybe I can live with a lack of smell for my life but I can't live with increased period symptoms each month. 

So, there's no good answer for you, because you can always claim it's not enough for your risk category. Convenient. 

What's Boeing or Lockheed's liability when you have a catastrophic failure in the aircraft the Air Force pays you to fly? 

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Alright I keep seeing statements like this claiming that the left is all vax’d up and good to go while the right is just refusing.
 
A 30 second look at vaccine demographics shows that the young and minorities have much lower vax take rates across the country, and quite frankly it doesn’t take a political scientist to know which political leaning those demographics have. So unless I’m missing something based on demographics alone the argument that support of Biden or liberal policies correlates to getting a vaccine is flawed at best based on data alone.
 
Standing by for remediation 

Obviously the lower minority vax take rate is due to systemic racism. Obviously.


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20 minutes ago, pawnman said:

So, there's no good answer for you, because you can always claim it's not enough for your risk category. Convenient. 

What's Boeing or Lockheed's liability when you have a catastrophic failure in the aircraft the Air Force pays you to fly? 

High. Lockheed has been successfully sued by families of deceased aircrew in the past for negligence including the case of Janet Harduval who successfully exonerated her Husband of pilot error in an F-16 crash when she discovered faulty wiring in the F-16's avionics that Lockheed failed to rectify. But this has nothing to do with any of this. So I don't know why you even mention it. 

Why don't you read this website though? https://www.c19vaxreactions.com/ it's full of people who will likely suffer lifetime side effects from the vaccine and they are largely footing their own medical cost while having to leave jobs and upend life plans. Where is their justice? Who will compensate them now that their life will permanently be altered? 

 

"WE NEED HELP. The constant messaging that the vaccines are safe and with zero acknowledgement of these adverse neurological reactions has made it impossible for us to obtain medical treatment. We are “collateral damage” in the effort to stop the pandemic. "

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38 minutes ago, FT11 said:

Alright I keep seeing statements like this claiming that the left is all vax’d up and good to go while the right is just refusing.

 

A 30 second look at vaccine demographics shows that the young and minorities have much lower vax take rates across the country, and quite frankly it doesn’t take a political scientist to know which political leaning those demographics have. So unless I’m missing something based on demographics alone the argument that support of Biden or liberal policies correlates to getting a vaccine is flawed at best based on data alone.

 

Standing by for remediation 

? I think we need to get more granular with our data here.  So young people and minorities lean generally left and have lower vaccine take rates.. so probably Republicans and Democrats are getting vaxxed at the same rates? Which races and age groups are you talking about? This is what I'm talking about with the average person not grasping statistics very well. You just lumped a lot of demographics, ethnicities, and age groups together and made a wild jump.
 

Literally voluntary polling data refutes your point:

https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/the-red-blue-divide-in-covid-19-vaccination-rates-is-growing/

"Democrats are much more likely to report having been vaccinated than Republicans, and Republicans are much more likely to say that they definitely do not want to get vaccinated."

It's not like this is some dirty secret. Lots of republicans are proud not to get the vaccine and have no issue telling people about it.

Also county and state vaccination rates compared with political leaning refute your claim as well. 

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25 minutes ago, Pooter said:

Copy, what people report and what they do are very different, thanks for the anecdote. 
 

Go here if you want an individual breakdown by ethnicity and age but since you asked for a specific comparison:

Black voter: 90 percent likely to have voted for Biden, 10 percent likely to have gotten the vaccine.

White voter: 55 percent chance to have voted for Trump, 60 percent chance to have gotten the vaccine

18-24yo: 8 percent chance to have gotten the vaccine, 60 percent chance to have voted for biden

Again, the whole point I’m trying to make here is just that claiming conservatives are vaccine deniers sure does seem odd unless now conservatives suddenly make up most of the under 30 population 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-demographic

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36 minutes ago, FLEA said:

 

Why don't you read this website though? https://www.c19vaxreactions.com/ it's full of people who will likely suffer lifetime side effects from the vaccine and they are largely footing their own medical cost while having to leave jobs and upend life plans. Where is their justice? Who will compensate them now that their life will permanently be altered? 

 

"WE NEED HELP. The constant messaging that the vaccines are safe and with zero acknowledgement of these adverse neurological reactions has made it impossible for us to obtain medical treatment. We are “collateral damage” in the effort to stop the pandemic. "

If it’s on the internet it must be true right? Not suggesting there aren’t real people who have had reactions (even severe ones) to vaccinations. There is literally no barrier to someone creating a website like this though, and it appears that there are indeed at least several more. The implication of this site and those like it is that the vaccines are less safe than advertised and that the “authorities” are hiding data from you. There are numerous actors that are benefiting greatly from the discord that is caused in the US by sites like these. Have you considered that it might be you who is being played by influencers who want to harm your country? Not a pleasant thought, I know, but sometimes we need to accept unpleasant feedback. I’m sure I will be counter-accused of the same thing. Fine, but ask yourself this: Why are you willing to accept data, theories, and opinions from non qualified commenters on the internet but not the known and accepted expertise of YOUR OWN government health agencies? Imperfect as we may be (and have always been), we are still the greatest nation on earth. This “American government is failing and untrustworthy” attitude is pure poison being injected by our enemies to great effect as of late. 

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1 hour ago, Pooter said:

...  I attribute the vaccination rate differences to two things:

1) people are driven by narratives and they want to join a team so they can hate on the other team

2) the average American has a terrifyingly poor grasp of math and statistics. 
 

Neither of these are a good basis for personal health decision making

How about to enable 21 days of glutanous traveling/leave in Spain? ...and their famous beaches...those good reasons?

Certainly sand, skin, food and wine can't be bad things (in moderation, which they weren't, the more the better!)

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8 hours ago, Prozac said:

If it’s on the internet it must be true right? Not suggesting there aren’t real people who have had reactions (even severe ones) to vaccinations. There is literally no barrier to someone creating a website like this though, and it appears that there are indeed at least several more. The implication of this site and those like it is that the vaccines are less safe than advertised and that the “authorities” are hiding data from you. There are numerous actors that are benefiting greatly from the discord that is caused in the US by sites like these. Have you considered that it might be you who is being played by influencers who want to harm your country? Not a pleasant thought, I know, but sometimes we need to accept unpleasant feedback. I’m sure I will be counter-accused of the same thing. Fine, but ask yourself this: Why are you willing to accept data, theories, and opinions from non qualified commenters on the internet but not the known and accepted expertise of YOUR OWN government health agencies? Imperfect as we may be (and have always been), we are still the greatest nation on earth. This “American government is failing and untrustworthy” attitude is pure poison being injected by our enemies to great effect as of late. 

Well, I can't really respond to you because you came right out the gate with the irrational belief that everyone who claims to have a COVID side effect is a Chinese spy. I can only respond rationally so I can't offer a response. 

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10 hours ago, Prozac said:

If it’s on the internet it must be true right? Not suggesting there aren’t real people who have had reactions (even severe ones) to vaccinations. There is literally no barrier to someone creating a website like this though, and it appears that there are indeed at least several more. The implication of this site and those like it is that the vaccines are less safe than advertised and that the “authorities” are hiding data from you. There are numerous actors that are benefiting greatly from the discord that is caused in the US by sites like these. Have you considered that it might be you who is being played by influencers who want to harm your country? Not a pleasant thought, I know, but sometimes we need to accept unpleasant feedback. I’m sure I will be counter-accused of the same thing. Fine, but ask yourself this: Why are you willing to accept data, theories, and opinions from non qualified commenters on the internet but not the known and accepted expertise of YOUR OWN government health agencies? Imperfect as we may be (and have always been), we are still the greatest nation on earth. This “American government is failing and untrustworthy” attitude is pure poison being injected by our enemies to great effect as of late. 

I’ll start by saying the COVID vaccines work, and they are clearly effective.

 

But there is also something else going on.


My sister received the J&J vaccine over 100 days ago. Within minutes, she started having a reaction. The vaccine site brushed it off. She went to the ER (more than once). They brushed it off. Over the next few days, things continued to get much, much worse. My sister, a PhD, a researcher, a published author, and an active member on international speaking circuit, now has great difficulty even walking. She’s spent months trying to get help from the medical community. All diagnostic tests have come back that she hasn’t any underlying medical conditions that would explain this. She’s mostly told “we don’t know what’s wrong with you, go away.” As soon as the medical community hears this all started happening minutes after a COVID vaccine, they don’t want to touch her with a 20 foot pole. She’s even been told “we don’t want to highlight anything that might negatively reflect on the COVID vaccine effort.” Yes, doctors actually tell her that. She’s also been told by the people giving the medical tests that she’s not the only one they have seen with problems like hers post-vaccine.

Her insurance recently told her they aren’t going to cover her tests or physical therapy anymore because they think this is permanent. That was thankfully reversed, at least temporarily, after she reached out to her state insurance commissioner, with lots of data.

The “in the trenches” medical community say it’s not their job to report this stuff, so she will have to do it on her own if she wants to report.

Here’s the problem. She’s tried to contact the CDC to provide updates and request a medical investigation (that’s a thing they can provide for unexplainable post-vaccine reactions). The CDC has been “shady” to say the least. She’s contacted J&J to submit reports. They took her data and gave her a case number. She called back later to update. J&J said they had no record of her ever contacting them and had no case with that number. She submitted again and received a second case number. She later called back, just to see how they would respond. This time… they still had no record of her calling or no record of either case number. She did this five times and all five times, J&J said they had no record of her.

She has initiated a formal investigation against J&J through the FDA.

The FDA requires drug companies to self report incidents and reactions. That’s in large part how the FDA determines drug safety. It’s much like how the FAA trusts aircraft manufacturers to provide accurate data for aircraft test and development programs.

How odd that J&J has conveniently “lost” 5 attempts at submitting adverse reactions. If they don’t have a report in their system, there is nothing for them to report to the FDA. If the FDA doesn’t have the data, how are they going to be able to determine drug safety?

I mean it’s not like a company would ever hide data or critical information to pull a fast one over on the federal regulators. cough*Boeing*cough

I’d have thought that the people on c19vaxreactions were a bunch of anti-vaxxer conspiracy nuts, except I came across that website months after my sister was dealing with the same EXACT things as the women on that site (yes, almost all the people on that site are women and I think that is noteworthy) and having the same EXACT reactions by the medical community when they try and get help. There is evidently a problem significantly greater than being reported. Unfortunately, it also seems to be actively repressed by some circles in order to not hurt COVID vaccination efforts. EDIT: while the individuals on the website highlight some valid neurological side-effects that don’t seem to be understood yet, some of the data shared on the site is a bit more suspect… such as taking VARES at face value, or relaying “I know of someone” stories rather than the first person accounts.

I don’t blame the FDA here, they operate based off the data they receive so they can include proper warnings of side effects. The FDA were the ones that threw on the warning about J&J blood clotting in women a couple months back, or the recent addition of GBS for men. In both cases, J&J was adamant there was no connection, and there was lots of national pushback against the FDA that adding the warnings would hurt vaccination efforts. People were even calling the FDA irresponsible.

I wish our country was in a spot where we can both encourage vaccinations, but also fully acknowledge and support those people who are struggling after having the vaccines. Instead, it’s turned into another front on the culture wars.

It’s also a concerning problem when medically relevant data isn’t actually making it to the federal regulators. That’s my biggest concern here and it makes me lose faith in the process. Not in the federal regulators, but rather the process the federal regulators use to make their decisions. The FAA found out the extent of the problem after two 737 crashes, but the FAA didn’t have to deal with the same cultural turmoil that is swirling around COVID.

Edited by Zman
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There's also a lot of women reporting menstral cycle changes as part of a side effect.  It's not being discussed very much.  Still unknown what the long term side effects of these changes are with relation to fertility.  

I read somewhere that if 100 ppl get covid, 60 will have no clue they ever had it.  28 will have flu like symptoms, 12 will be hospitalized and 1 of the 12 will die.  However the 12 could be determined by pre existing conditions, age and general health.  

With the increase in cases, and the media scaring everyone again, the key factor is hospitalizations.  Obviously you can still get or carry covid now with a vaccine.  Is the spike really due to ppl not vaxed?  or is this showing the vaccine may not be as protective as thought?

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1 hour ago, ecugringo said:With the increase in cases, and the media scaring everyone again, the key factor is hospitalizations.  Obviously you can still get or carry covid now with a vaccine.  Is the spike really due to ppl not vaxed?  or is this showing the vaccine may not be as protective as thought?

Virginia has started reporting the data you’re looking for:

https://www.vdh.virginia.gov/coronavirus/covid-19-data-insights/covid-19-cases-by-vaccination-status/

This should help answer your questions.

These numbers will likely take a bit of a hit with the continued spread of the Delta variant, but the data seems fairly convincing (even if you might argue over a couple numbers here or there).

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9 hours ago, FLEA said:

Well, I can't really respond to you because you came right out the gate with the irrational belief that everyone who claims to have a COVID side effect is a Chinese spy. I can only respond rationally so I can't offer a response. 

Not remotely what I said. Side effects are very real. They are also very rare. There are actors that want you to be hesitant to get a vaccine because it furthers their goals, not yours, and certainly not ours collectively as a nation. 

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8 hours ago, Prozac said:

Not remotely what I said. Side effects are very real. They are also very rare. There are actors that want you to be hesitant to get a vaccine because it furthers their goals, not yours, and certainly not ours collectively as a nation. 

To you and Prawnman,

Would you guys respect someone’s decision if they evaluated the threat to themselves, and others, and decided it was not worth the risk of getting a vaccine? 

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9 hours ago, VMFA187 said:

To you and Prawnman,

Would you guys respect someone’s decision if they evaluated the threat to themselves, and others, and decided it was not worth the risk of getting a vaccine? 

Depends.  Is this person not getting the vaccine still wearing a mask, socially distancing, avoiding large crowds of people...?

Or is this person loudly proclaiming that everything should be open, you can't ask about their vaccination status, refusing to wear a mask even in places where there's a 100% mask policy, and eagerly booking tickets for the next big event?

Because from what I've seen, the people who aren't getting vaccinated also scoff every other countermeasure taken against the pandemic.  If you've gotten advice from your doctor that you shouldn't get the vaccine, I don't fault you.  If you're taking marching orders from some political operative that told you Biden and Fauci are out to get you...no, I don't respect that decision.

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11 hours ago, VMFA187 said:

To you and Prawnman,

Would you guys respect someone’s decision if they evaluated the threat to themselves, and others, and decided it was not worth the risk of getting a vaccine? 

Agree with Pawnman: it depends. For a small number of people, vaccination doesn’t make sense for a variety of medical or other reasons. For the vast majority of us though, that’s like asking if someone’s decision to forgo looking both ways before crossing the street should be respected. Is it a personal decision? Well, I suppose it is, but if you’re hit by a car and killed you’re going to cause all kinds of problems beyond your own unnecessary death. Traffic will be snarled for hours. You have damaged someone’s vehicle and potentially injured them, etc. So I really, REALLY want you to look both ways before crossing the street & have a hard time “respecting” your personal decision not to. 
 

Some data to ponder:

Roughly 35M people have contracted COVID-19 in the US so far.  About 612K have died as a result of COVID-19 infection. 
 

About 340M doses of vaccine have been administered to 187M people in our country. VAERS data indicates roughly 6200 died after receiving the vaccine, however that doesn’t mean they necessarily died as a direct result of vaccination. The latest data I can find indicates that three people have died directly as a result of blood clot issues caused by the J&J vaccine. 
 

To recap: 612K dead out of 35M who contracted COVID. Three dead out of 187M vaccinated. You may dispute those numbers on the margins but that does not change the calculus here. Refusing to get the vaccine is akin to refusing to look both ways before crossing a busy street. It’s a stupid and disruptive decision. 

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Regarding crossing the street, I'm fairly certain getting hit by a truck doesn't have a 99% survival rate if you're <70 years old.

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4 hours ago, Prozac said:

Agree with Pawnman: it depends. For a small number of people, vaccination doesn’t make sense for a variety of medical or other reasons. For the vast majority of us though, that’s like asking if someone’s decision to forgo looking both ways before crossing the street should be respected. Is it a personal decision? Well, I suppose it is, but if you’re hit by a car and killed you’re going to cause all kinds of problems beyond your own unnecessary death. Traffic will be snarled for hours. You have damaged someone’s vehicle and potentially injured them, etc. So I really, REALLY want you to look both ways before crossing the street & have a hard time “respecting” your personal decision not to. 
 

Some data to ponder:

Roughly 35M people have contracted COVID-19 in the US so far.  About 612K have died as a result of COVID-19 infection. 
 

About 340M doses of vaccine have been administered to 187M people in our country. VAERS data indicates roughly 6200 died after receiving the vaccine, however that doesn’t mean they necessarily died as a direct result of vaccination. The latest data I can find indicates that three people have died directly as a result of blood clot issues caused by the J&J vaccine. 
 

To recap: 612K dead out of 35M who contracted COVID. Three dead out of 187M vaccinated. You may dispute those numbers on the margins but that does not change the calculus here. Refusing to get the vaccine is akin to refusing to look both ways before crossing a busy street. It’s a stupid and disruptive decision. 

The VAERS data regarding post vaccine deaths isn't what's concerning people. It's the lack of data on COVID vaccine long term side effects. There are A LOT of people complaining about neural and menstrual side effects. It's even less clear if the vaccine will create more insidious effects like increasing risk factors to heart disease or cancer. If I you from COVID (because it wouldn't kill me) but I lose 2 years off my life because I died slightly earlier than expected from heart disease, than it wasn't worth getting the vaccine. Now for the record, I have the vaccine, but that is definitely the case A LOT of people are making and I totally understand it.

Also for the record, my wife is one of the few thousand women reporting extreme and intense menstrual changes post vaccination. To the point that it literally incapacitates her one day a month. That's a hell of a burden to live with until menopause because you were nice enough to save someone else's life by taking an unnecessary risk in your own. Hope those people thank her for her service. 

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2 hours ago, DUNBAR said:

Regarding crossing the street, I'm fairly certain getting hit by a truck doesn't have a 99% survival rate if you're <70 years old.

Some of you guys take analogies way too literally.  Regardless, lets go with your example.  Lets say it's not a busy street.  Lets say it's an extremely desolate street with one vehicle going by every hour.  You're still going to look both ways before crossing because it's an easy and prudent thing to do. 

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7 minutes ago, FLEA said:

The VAERS data regarding post vaccine deaths isn't what's concerning people. It's the lack of data on COVID vaccine long term side effects. There are A LOT of people complaining about neural and menstrual side effects. It's even less clear if the vaccine will create more insidious effects like increasing risk factors to heart disease or cancer. If I you from COVID (because it wouldn't kill me) but I lose 2 years off my life because I died slightly earlier than expected from heart disease, than it wasn't worth getting the vaccine. Now for the record, I have the vaccine, but that is definitely the case A LOT of people are making and I totally understand it.

Also for the record, my wife is one of the few thousand women reporting extreme and intense menstrual changes post vaccination. To the point that it literally incapacitates her one day a month. That's a hell of a burden to live with until menopause because you were nice enough to save someone else's life by taking an unnecessary risk in your own. Hope those people thank her for her service. 

I'm sorry to hear that your wife is experiencing negative side effects that may be a result of vaccination.  The good news is that these side effects are rare, and more pointedly for your wife, seem to last only one or two cycles:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/can-covid-19-vaccines-affect-periods#How-long-do-these-changes-last?

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/features/covid-19-vaccines-periods-menstrual/

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I'm not certain how flippantly or seriously I'm taking my analogies, but I do know that with each passing month, this COVID thing makes my head explode, especially now that we're re-masking on base.

I don't know how anyone can be contemptuous or condescending to non-vaxxers.  Considering the survival rate of the actual virus for healthy people under the age of 70, and considering the track record of the science/government/media conglomeration of "experts",  everyone should think long and hard about electing to get vaccinated.  We can all compose a laundry list of examples in which something went very wrong with scientific "expertise", whether it be the imminent ice age of the 1970s, thalidomide, or the pitiful track record on COVID.  ("Masks won't help!  It's not an airborne virus!  COVID won't be a big deal!  The flu will be worse!  There's no way it came from a lab!  Yes it did!  No it didn't!  You should wear two masks!  If you get vaccinated, you won't ever need a mask!  Yes you will!" )  On and on it goes.  And yes, I have been vaccinated, as has my family (and that second shot was not fun).

I especially cannot understand the mindset of those who demand more lockdowns, mandatory vaccinations, and masks for elementary school kids.  Everything in life is a risk/cost/benefit trade-off, and the world has gone so far off the deep end with this COVID thing that it's incomprehensible.  

Why not ban air travel?  People die!  Reduce the highway speed limit to 45!  Ban swimming pools!  And alcohol!  And make sure your kindergartner is wearing two masks on the playground!  No, wait!  Ban playgrounds!

Utter madness.

 

 

 

Edited by DUNBAR
grammar nazi avoidance
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1 hour ago, Tank said:

POTUS requires vaccine for all federal employees…

Does that include all military now?

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-07-29-21/h_6ce902c24f666475efe79fba275e7c02

Actually, what he said (from the article you linked) was:

"Every federal government employee will be asked to attest to their vaccination status. Anyone who does not attest or is not vaccinated will be required to mask no matter where they work, test one or two times a week to see if they've acquired Covid, socially distance, and generally will not be allowed to travel for work,"

So the vaccine is NOT mandatory, but if you don’t get vaccinated you will still have to mask and be tested regularly, along with no work travel/TDYs. Which is already how some bases were operating before this statement was made. 

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