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COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)


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46 minutes ago, Pooter said:

For me the calculus is very simple. We don't know the long term effects of the vaccine or covid so there's no point trying to compare two unknown variables. What we do know is the short/medium term effects of both, and even for young healthy people a bad vaccine reaction is orders of magnitude less likely than dying from covid 19. 

You make a great point about the limitations of our knowledge. Humility is key.

Foundational to one's world view is the question how the government should proceed in a low-information scenario. I default towards individual freedom, a lot of people don't, or they overstate the certainty of their position to seize moral authority they really shouldn't.

FWIW, Im vaccinated, but I don't support making it mandatory right now.

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2 hours ago, Pooter said:

Okay that's something..

But is that ever going to happen in the real world? What other medications do you know of where the manufacturer/government preemptively accept full financial liability for any/all future side effects?

In this hypothetical scenario, how would you even go about proving the vaccine is causal in a medical problem you have 10 or 20 years down the road? And which side effects should be covered? Also are we going to apply this rule to other medications? I'm sure in a country of 300 million I can find five people who died after taking Advil.  


I'm asking these things because if the line in the sand we're drawing is unrealistic, maybe we need to come up with a better one. 
 

For me the calculus is very simple. We don't know the long term effects of the vaccine or covid so there's no point trying to compare two unknown variables. What we do know is the short/medium term effects of both, and even for young healthy people a bad vaccine reaction is orders of magnitude less likely than dying from covid 19. 

One thing to point out is most people I've talked to aren't worried about dieing from the vaccine. They are concerned with more subtle side effects like unexplained pre-diabetes in 20 years despite a healthy lifestyle, or reproductive difficulties that increase frustrations with getting pregnant. In either of these cases the right of the individual trump's the public health concerns for right to life because both of those situations are life altering to the quality of a person's life. 

 

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1 hour ago, FLEA said:

One thing to point out is most people I've talked to aren't worried about dieing from the vaccine. They are concerned with more subtle side effects like unexplained pre-diabetes in 20 years despite a healthy lifestyle, or reproductive difficulties that increase frustrations with getting pregnant. In either of these cases the right of the individual trump's the public health concerns for right to life because both of those situations are life altering to the quality of a person's life. 

 

I have my two doses, but I am worried about my balls falling off.  Can I get insurance for that?

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1 hour ago, FLEA said:

One thing to point out is most people I've talked to aren't worried about dieing from the vaccine. They are concerned with more subtle side effects like unexplained pre-diabetes in 20 years despite a healthy lifestyle, or reproductive difficulties that increase frustrations with getting pregnant. In either of these cases the right of the individual trump's the public health concerns for right to life because both of those situations are life altering to the quality of a person's life. 

 

Can you point to evidence that suggests any of the COVID vaccines are responsible for pre-diabetes or reproductive issues?  Seems like there are a lot of rumors floating around but very limited solid evidence for serious side effects with the exception of a very few…and those are in line with what is considered acceptable in other vaccines and medications.
 

Also, you may indeed know “very few” people concerned about COVID death, but this is very much a circumstantial statement. Over 600 thousand Americans have died from this disease. That is a staggering number that should be shocking to all Americans. Some of you will say that those numbers are inflated. Ok. Let’s cut the number in half. Still an abysmal result that, in any other circumstance, should have most Americans crying out for and supporting far more aggressive and potentially risky solutions. Many of us here willingly and happily went to war after lunatics killed a few thousand Americans in New York. But half a million dead and we don’t want a shot? Blows my mind. 

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29 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Over 600 thousand Americans have died from this disease. That is a staggering number that should be shocking to all Americans. Some of you will say that those numbers are inflated. Ok. Let’s cut the number in half. Still an abysmal result that, in any other circumstance, should have most Americans crying out for and supporting far more aggressive and potentially risky solutions. Many of us here willingly and happily went to war after lunatics killed a few thousand Americans in New York. But half a million dead and we don’t want a shot? Blows my mind. 

Of those 600,000, weren't 80-90% obese? Let's not act like the virus targeted everyone equally - And yes I am completely skeptical of that number of 600,000. Did that many people die? Yeah probably, but did that many people actually die from covid? I have doubts.

Maybe it is "risky" living an unhealthy life every single day of one's life? Maybe to save fat people we just simply don't let them order certain foods and drinks at restaurants and grocery stores, I mean its for the betterment of everyone - Right? Many people seems willing to force me not to have a choice...

 How many people does obesity kill every year? Probably more than 600,000 - Why isn't there a war on obesity? Or what if the increasingly likely probability that it was released from China, and covered up, caused a majority of those deaths? What then?

 

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43 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Also, you may indeed know “very few” people concerned about COVID death, but this is very much a circumstantial statement. Over 600 thousand Americans have died from this disease. That is a staggering number that should be shocking to all Americans. Some of you will say that those numbers are inflated. Ok. Let’s cut the number in half. Still an abysmal result that, in any other circumstance, should have most Americans crying out for and supporting far more aggressive and potentially risky solutions. Many of us here willingly and happily went to war after lunatics killed a few thousand Americans in New York. But half a million dead and we don’t want a shot? Blows my mind. 

Not to be argumentative and I know it's a serious illness to many  but, No, 600K did not die from Covid19. If you're going to call out people then be more honest in your claims as well.

 

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3 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

Of those 600,000, weren't 80-90% obese? Let's not act like the virus targeted everyone equally - And yes I am completely skeptical of that number of 600,000. Did that many people die? Yeah probably, but did that many people actually die from covid? I have doubts.

Maybe it is "risky" living an unhealthy life every single day of one's life? Maybe to save fat people we just simply don't let them order certain foods and drinks at restaurants and grocery stores, I mean its for the betterment of everyone - Right? Many people seems willing to force me not to have a choice...

 

Spot on brother. Spot on. 

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43 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

Of those 600,000, weren't 80-90% obese? Let's not act like the virus targeted everyone equally - And yes I am completely skeptical of that number of 600,000. Did that many people die? Yeah probably, but did that many people actually die from covid? I have doubts.

Maybe it is "risky" living an unhealthy life every single day of one's life? Maybe to save fat people we just simply don't let them order certain foods and drinks at restaurants and grocery stores, I mean its for the betterment of everyone - Right? Many people seems willing to force me not to have a choice...

 How many people does obesity kill every year? Probably more than 600,000 - Why isn't there a war on obesity? Or what if the increasingly likely probability that it was released from China, and covered up, caused a majority of those deaths? What then?

 

So we’re ok with the argument that an obese person’s life is worth less than a healthy person’s now? How much less? Is an obese person worth 1/2 a healthy person in our society? 3/4? What is the value you would place on an obese person’s life? Honest question. Not saying encouraging healthy living shouldn’t be a goal in our society. I’m 100% on board with ending the obesity epidemic in our country. But writing someone off ‘cause they’re fat? Seems pretty jaded, cold and inhumane. 

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47 minutes ago, bfargin said:

Not to be argumentative and I know it's a serious illness to many  but, No, 600K did not die from Covid19. If you're going to call out people then be more honest in your claims as well.

 

Cool. So what’s the number? ~600k is the official number the United States claims dead. Making a claim that it’s any other number seems to be the more dishonest tack to me. 

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9 minutes ago, Prozac said:

So we’re ok with the argument that an obese person’s life is worth less than a healthy person’s now? How much less? Is an obese person worth 1/2 a healthy person in our society? 3/4? What is the value you would place on an obese person’s life? Honest question. 

Good questions, I’ll have to chew on them.  But crushing my freedom to maybe help an obese person have a slight edge isn’t moral or fair.  Forcing me to comply with restrictions for the benefit of another who placed themselves at risk is antithetical to freedom and opposite my values.

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13 minutes ago, Prozac said:

So we’re ok with the argument that an obese person’s life is worth less than a healthy person’s now? How much less? Is an obese person worth 1/2 a healthy person in our society? 3/4? What is the value you would place on an obese person’s life? Honest question. Not saying encouraging healthy living shouldn’t be a goal in our society. I’m 100% on board with ending the obesity epidemic in our country. But writing someone off ‘cause they’re fat? Seems pretty jaded, cold and inhumane. 

I never said that an obese persons life is worth less than a healthy person's life. But yes, if it were personal choices that individual made to cause them to be unhealthy, and all other variables were equal, then yes that is an assertion I would make. How much money does obesity cost the United States each year? Is someone who takes less valuable than someone who provides? The question to that is unequivocally "yes."

Regardless, that was not the point. My point was that people who have harmed themselves by living their choice of lifestyles and then expecting me to subsidize their poor lifestyle choices by way of taking away aspects of my life which I enjoy to make them safer is something I don't agree with. 

I write off people who are fat all the time, so does anyone who is moderately fit and/or attractive. So does the military. You probably do too. 

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12 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

I never said that an obese persons life is worth less than a healthy person's life. But yes, if it were personal choices that individual made to cause them to be unhealthy, and all other variables were equal, then yes that is an assertion I would make. How much money does obesity cost the United States each year? Is someone who takes less valuable than someone who provides? The question to that is unequivocally "yes."

Regardless, that was not the point. My point was that people who have harmed themselves by living their choice of lifestyles and then expecting me to subsidize their poor lifestyle choices by way of taking away aspects of my life which I enjoy to make them safer is something I don't agree with. 

I write off people who are fat all the time, so does anyone who is moderately fit and/or attractive. So does the military. You probably do too. 

So if someone refused to wear a helmet and was injured in a motorcycle accident would you be ok with withholding medical care from that person due to the choice that they made? What if that person was a family member or close friend? The truth is, we deal with situations like this every day in our society. People make stupid or ill advised decisions all the time. The rest of us pay for those decisions by way of public emergency rooms, insurance premiums, restrictive public safety measures, etc. it’s part of the compromise that comes from living in a society. We don’t submit citizens to a death penalty because they make poor choices. With regard to writing off overweight people, two points: 1. Not giving an unattractive person a second look is not the same as standing by as they suffer what may be a preventable death. 2. Don’t knock fat chicks if you haven’t tried one. Everybody needs love bro. 🍻

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12 minutes ago, Prozac said:

So if someone refused to wear a helmet and was injured in a motorcycle accident would you be ok with withholding medical care from that person due to the choice that they made?

But he’s not talking about withholding medical care, he’s talking about taking from him personally against his free will, to help the person who made a poor choice. In this analogy, dumbass wrecks his bike wearing zero PPE while going 69 mph, so Prozac is pulled out of work to donate an asscheek of skin to graft onto dumbass’ fucked up body. Yeah hyperbole, but so is this entire analogy. 

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7 minutes ago, brabus said:

But he’s not talking about withholding medical care, he’s talking about taking from him personally against his free will, to help the person who made a poor choice. In this analogy, dumbass wrecks his bike wearing zero PPE while going 69 mph, so Prozac is pulled out of work to donate an asscheek of skin to graft onto dumbass’ fucked up body. Yeah hyperbole, but so is this entire analogy. 

Thanks bro, now I don't need to respond.

I appreciate that some people read what is written and take it as such without trying to morph it into something completely different. 

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4 minutes ago, brabus said:

But he’s not talking about withholding medical care, he’s talking about taking from him personally against his free will, to help the person who made a poor choice. In this analogy, dumbass wrecks his bike wearing zero PPE while going 69 mph, so Prozac is pulled out of work to donate an asscheek of skin to graft onto dumbass’ fucked up body. Yeah hyperbole, but so is this entire analogy. 

Not quite. These asscheeks aren’t going anywhere. I’m affected though as my tax dollars get used to fix up out hypothetical motorcyclist (who doesn’t have hypothetical insurance). I would agree that getting a vaccine is a higher level of commitment than paying taxes, but it is a much, much lower level of commitment than donating a (finely toned) ass cheek’s worth of skin. 

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22 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Not quite. These asscheeks aren’t going anywhere. I’m affected though as my tax dollars get used to fix up out hypothetical motorcyclist (who doesn’t have hypothetical insurance). I would agree that getting a vaccine is a higher level of commitment than paying taxes, but it is a much, much lower level of commitment than donating a (finely toned) ass cheek’s worth of skin. 

I agree—get the government completely out of paying for healthcare.  Can’t afford your care, plenty fo charities willing to help out.

Something tells me you’re not willing to not allow the government to take my wealth in order to care for someone else…

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16 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

I agree—get the government completely out of paying for healthcare.  Can’t afford your care, plenty fo charities willing to help out.

Something tells me you’re not willing to not allow the government to take my wealth in order to care for someone else…

Correct. You and I likely have a fundamental disagreement on the role society should play/not play in making life better for all people. No worries. 🍺

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16 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Correct. You and I likely have a fundamental disagreement on the role society should play/not play in making life better for all people. No worries. 🍺

Sure do!  Let me know when we can all stop working and receive free health care!  You know…because that will equate to making life better for all people!

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I agree—get the government completely out of paying for healthcare.  Can’t afford your care, plenty fo charities willing to help out.
Something tells me you’re not willing to not allow the government to take my wealth in order to care for someone else…


How do you feel about DoD reducing it's healthcare services, with the plan of kicking dependents off base to the private providers/Tricare? In theory that's fine, in practice there are many locations where it's difficult to get added as a new patient off base, which would effectively deny routine healthcare access to dependents.

Should retiree Tricare be eliminated? Any service related issues could be handled by the VA. Need coverage transitioning to your second career? There's always COBRA. Shouldn't the pension be enough of a thank you for a full career of service, similar to what the private sector offers in retirement plans? Can't afford your care of for that of your family? Well, there's plenty of charities...

Even if you don't go to those extremes, should the premiums for Tricare coverage for dependents be raised to be on par with private sector HMO rates?
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3 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

 


How do you feel about DoD reducing it's healthcare services, with the plan of kicking dependents off base to the private providers/Tricare? In theory that's fine, in practice there are many locations where it's difficult to get added as a new patient off base, which would effectively deny routine healthcare access to dependents.

Should retiree Tricare be eliminated? Any service related issues could be handled by the VA. Need coverage transitioning to your second career? There's always COBRA. Shouldn't the pension be enough of a thank you for a full career of service, similar to what the private sector offers in retirement plans? Can't afford your care of for that of your family? Well, there's plenty of charities...

Even if you don't go to those extremes, should the premiums for Tricare coverage for dependents be raised to be on par with private sector HMO rates?

 

I do enjoy it when people compare military healthcare (as a part of compensation for military service) to taxpayer funded healthcare to those just because they have a pulse.

So are you legitimately wanting to have a discussion about military/retiree healthcare or is your post due to my back and forth with Prozac regarding taxpayer funded welfare?  If it’s the former, we can probably have that conversation on a different thread.  The only reason I mentioned taxpayer funded healthcare is because Prozac brought it up wrt covid.

 

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I do enjoy it when people compare military healthcare (as a part of compensation for military service) to taxpayer funded healthcare to those just because they have a pulse.
So are you legitimately wanting to have a discussion about military/retiree healthcare or is your post due to my back and forth with Prozac regarding taxpayer funded welfare?  If it’s the former, we can probably have that conversation on a different thread.  The only reason I mentioned taxpayer funded healthcare is because Prozac brought it up wrt covid.


They're both related, but I'll stay on the latter point. The question is where to draw the line on the public good.

Should I have to bear the cost of hospitalization of someone who catches COVID and needs ICU care, but had believed COVID was fake news, ignored CDC recommendations, and believes the vaccines contain microchips?

Even with private insurance, if the insurer is paying out more for medical services, you can count on premiums going to go up the next year so your still going to take it out of hide to pay for someone else's stupidity. After all, the insurer is in the business of making money, and generally has a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to deny care whenever allowed by contract/coverage terms. And most people do not have the money to pay medical costs directly themselves, so that means pooling resources with others to mitigate financial risks. That can be with government, or with private organizations, both of which can screw you as the individual in many different ways.

We benefit from decent healthcare in the military, and for retirees I'd say great healthcare for the price that you couldn't get in the private sector. Oddly enough, you never hear that come up as a factor when taking about compensation packages (pilot pro pay vs bonuses, etc), it's just taken for granted because that's just the way it's been. So it makes it easy to justify why we get government healthcare and others don't-because that's how it always has been.
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