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COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)


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6 hours ago, kaputt said:

Your COVID vaccine doom porn reads exactly like the clowns that are all in on the "COVID is the worst tragedy to ever strike this earth" doom porn. COVID vax doomers and COVID doomers remind me of the old Communism/Fascism adage; both are so far to opposite sides they actually find themselves back to back in the same spot.  

I think you should maybe lay off the Epoch Times for a bit. The data I saw showed under 1,000 people had died after getting at least the first shot. However it's already come out that the data includes people who died in car accidents or other causes of death. It's not even remotely surprising either that some have died after getting a vaccine when you consider the massive effort to get the elderly vaccinated. It's not hard to imagine an 88 year old getting the vaccine and then dying 2 weeks later because guess what!? They're old!

I've also noticed a hilarious trend of the Vax Doomers. They are often the first to jump and point out that the COVID death numbers make it hard to determine whether someone actually died of COVID or just with COVID, including pointing to examples of car accident deaths or overdoses being labeled as COVID if the person tested positive (which btw, I agree with the notion that our death numbers are likely flawed). But as soon as some data comes out showing deaths after vaccine, the data is all of a sudden gospel truth and proof that people are dropping dead from the jabs and only the jabs. 

Forgive me while I don't jump on your doom train, just like I didn't jump on the COVID fear porn train. Its amazing if you step back and take an objective look at things for more than a few minutes how often you find yourself in a nice middle ground. 

 

I wouldn’t call myself a vax-doomer. I personally am very convinced the mRNA will be harmful long term (I hope it isn’t), but I couldn’t care less what the herd does to pursue immunity. More of a I’d like to finish my military career and be left alone by the “anti-vax-doomer SS” pushing to force me to violate my faith/integrity and advocating to keep people like me from working, traveling, etc. because they are so scared (happening in Israel of all places right now). Let me take vitamin D and Ivermectin knowing I’m 100% safe and Covid free, and I’m happy.

 

55 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:
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These horror stories of police arresting people on the beach or dragging people out of church are way overblown.  The media is going to over-report anything that will get views and outrage--similar to

The Crozier situation has sparked many illuminating conversations up and down the chain.  No, we don’t know all details but the core issues ring true to anyone who has experienced mid-level authority

You went from making a reasonable point to saying religious people should all get together and give themselves coronovirus because they’re stupid.  Not sure why or how you made this leap, but maybe yo

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34 minutes ago, GoodSplash9 said:

violate my faith

Curious as to which religions take issue with vaccines? I know that Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventist have well known restrictions. Or are we talking “personal” religion?

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9 minutes ago, Homestar said:

Curious as to which religions take issue with vaccines? I know that Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventist have well known restrictions. Or are we talking “personal” religion?

Isn’t someone’s faith/religion, by definition, “personal”? 

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1 hour ago, GoodSplash9 said:

I wouldn’t call myself a vax-doomer. I personally am very convinced the mRNA will be harmful long term (I hope it isn’t), but I couldn’t care less what the herd does to pursue immunity. More of a I’d like to finish my military career and be left alone by the “anti-vax-doomer SS” pushing to force me to violate my faith/integrity and advocating to keep people like me from working, traveling, etc. because they are so scared (happening in Israel of all places right now). Let me take vitamin D and Ivermectin knowing I’m 100% safe and Covid free, and I’m happy.

 

Is it odd to anyone else that the most infectious virus ever really only affects the old and sick, kids are mostly unaffected also gets a vaccine created within like 3 or 4 months?  Meanwhile many other viruses still have no vaccine?

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1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

Isn’t someone’s faith/religion, by definition, “personal”? 

Well yeah. But no major religion prohibits vaccines. Some minor religions have prohibitions on transfusions for example, but to say you have a prohibition against vaccines if you belong to a church that has no such restrictions means you really have a “personal” exemption. Not religious. 

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16 minutes ago, ecugringo said:

Is it odd to anyone else that the most infectious virus ever really only affects the old and sick, kids are mostly unaffected also gets a vaccine created within like 3 or 4 months?  Meanwhile many other viruses still have no vaccine?

Who said it is the most infectious diseases ever?  For the record, the nine most infectious diseases are:

Smallpox - Int he 20th century alone it killed 300 million humans.   We have a vaccine.

Influenza - We have a vaccine and update it every year to cover a spectrum of mutations.

Rabies - We have a vaccine.

Tuberculosis - We have a vaccine.

Leprosy - We have a vaccine.

Typhoid Fever - We have a vaccine.

Bubonic Plague - We have a vaccine.

Malaria - We have a vaccine.

HIV/AIDS - We have a treatment, a vaccine is still in the works because this is a very odd virus.

We have been working with Corona viruses for many many years.  This is a simple mutation of a protein spike which was very fortunate for us.  Also, science has advanced and thanks to emergency authorization this was one of the first uses of the mRNA approach.

 

 

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2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Isn’t someone’s faith/religion, by definition, “personal”? 

Usually they aren't the only member of the faith.

We call that mental illness.  Or sometimes, in small numbers, a cult.

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11 hours ago, GoodSplash9 said:

If anyone is interested in how poor third world countries completely mitigated Covid without vaccines, shutdowns, or quarantines while the US government and medical community ignored science, this is a pretty awesome fact based scientific video from Dr Ryan Cole. Hint: Vitamin D / Ivermectin

https://youtu.be/wPbxOeYAC7s

For those of you that rave about the vaccine safety, you apparently aren’t concerned about facial paralysis, young healthy people dropping dead within days, miscarriages, long term headaches, etc...I’d encourage you to check the reported deaths and negative side effects in VAERS (in the tens of thousands). There isn’t even a year of data on the safety or effectiveness in a large population (that’s why you are literally part of a medical experiment). I know, the next argument will be percentages despite the fact that covid has a .4% ish fatality rate for all of us under 60. I’d also encourage you to look at how COVID has hit the Air Force: 

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2184415/air-force-update-for-covid-19/
 

2 hospitalizations with 0 deaths in the AD USAF force.

I wouldn't put all my eggs in the vitamin D basket.  There's something else that those developing nations have that the US and Europe don't have - a sub-50% obesity rate.  Covid-19 is vastly more dangerous to people who are overweight/obese than to people at a healthy weight.

https://www.obesityaction.org/community/covid-19-and-obesity-what-does-it-mean-for-you/

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While it was thought that only seniors and people with immune disorders were at increased risk for severe illness, obesity has emerged as a strong and independent risk factor for severe infection and death due to COVID-19.

 

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2 hours ago, Homestar said:

Well yeah. But no major religion prohibits vaccines. Some minor religions have prohibitions on transfusions for example, but to say you have a prohibition against vaccines if you belong to a church that has no such restrictions means you really have a “personal” exemption. Not religious. 

Who says you have to subscribe to a certain church/organized religion to have a certain kind of faith?

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53 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Usually they aren't the only member of the faith.

We call that mental illness.  Or sometimes, in small numbers, a cult.

Are you supportive of someone having their own faith and abiding by it, even if they’re the only “member” of that certain faith?

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34 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I wouldn't put all my eggs in the vitamin D basket.  There's something else that those developing nations have that the US and Europe don't have - a sub-50% obesity rate.  Covid-19 is vastly more dangerous to people who are overweight/obese than to people at a healthy weight.

https://www.obesityaction.org/community/covid-19-and-obesity-what-does-it-mean-for-you/

 

Also, in developing nations, people with weak immune systems and/or comorbidities are likely to have been previously “culled from the heard” by any number of other diseases that still run rampant in the third world. Some may argue: Well that’s survival of the fittest. We need more of that here. To which I counter: One of the hallmarks of a developed, civilized society is a universal reverence for life. Animals cast off their old and sick for the survival of the herd. One of the things that makes us human is that we’ve evolved past that necessity. Oh, and BTW mass obesity, while an unfortunate fact of life in the United States (perpetuated to a degree by our government’s massive subsidies to corn farmers), there are many other conditions that would make one more susceptible to severe coronavirus outcomes. I am not prepared to tell my friend, who’s son has MS that this whole thing is overblown and we just need more vitamin D. Getting vaccinated is a good sign that you give half a fuck about vulnerable people in our society. 

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59 minutes ago, Prozac said:

One of the hallmarks of a developed, civilized society is a universal reverence for life.

 Getting vaccinated is a good sign that you give half a fuck about vulnerable people 

To fully persuade me of your perspective, please share your opinion on abortion and euthanasia.  Philosophical consistency is highly convincing.

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33 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

To fully persuade me of your perspective, please share your opinion on abortion and euthanasia.  Philosophical consistency is highly convincing.

You’re reaching. I suppose your implied argument is that I only believe in the sanctity of life under certain conditions. You couldn’t be more wrong. Not interested in turning this thread into an abortion debate, a political debate, or anything other than the question of how to mitigate the effects of COVID-19 on our society.
 

Vaccines have been around for a long time and are generally proven to be safe and effective. Ever had a flu vaccine? Guess what, that’s a “new” and “untested” vaccine every year. We don’t know the long term side effects of the flu vaccines we put out, the shingles vaccine, or the chickenpox vaccine because they’re all relatively new. Yet we know enough about how vaccines work to generally accept that they will be safe in the long term. What about MRNA you say? Well the concept has been around for over a decade and has been shown to be safe as well. If it concerns you that much, seek out and get the J&J shot which works like any traditional vaccine.

Or don’t. But be aware, once this vaccine exits the emergency use phase, the courts absolutely support the ability of employers, including the military to make it a requirement for employment. Same with schools and businesses. You can absolutely refuse it if you want, but don’t be surprised when you can’t get your kid enrolled in school, or go on a cruise, or buy an airline ticket, or go to a concert, etc. etc. 

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50 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

Wrong...you might google Jacobson v. Massachusetts.

While that case has certainly been used to uphold things like mandatory vaccination to enroll in public schools, my understanding is that there are no states which currently require compulsory vaccination of any citizen (obviously not the case in Massachusetts in 1905). While vaccines are compulsory for public schools, parents are currently free to refuse and homeschool their children. You’re right that the case could be used to enforce mandatory vaccination in the future, but I think it would be politically untenable to do so. Nor do I think that would be necessary or right. I think restrictions levied by private enterprises will be more than enough motivation for most people to eventually get a COVID-19 vaccine. 

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23 minutes ago, Prozac said:

While that case has certainly been used to uphold things like mandatory vaccination to enroll in public schools, my understanding is that there are no states which currently require compulsory vaccination of any citizen (obviously not the case in Massachusetts in 1905). While vaccines are compulsory for public schools, parents are currently free to refuse and homeschool their children. You’re right that the case could be used to enforce mandatory vaccination in the future, but I think it would be politically untenable to do so. Nor do I think that would be necessary or right. I think restrictions levied by private enterprises will be more than enough motivation for most people to eventually get a COVID-19 vaccine. 

Just saying in the absolute, especially considering Stare Decisis, the precedent is there to make it mandatory for the entire population.   Public opinion may go ape shit, but this has already been decided once.

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3 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Who says you have to subscribe to a certain church/organized religion to have a certain kind of faith?

No one. But your exemption on those grounds is personal. Not religious. 

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1 hour ago, Prozac said:

You’re reaching. I suppose your implied argument is that I only believe in the sanctity of life under certain conditions. You couldn’t be more wrong. Not interested in turning this thread into an abortion debate, a political debate, or anything other than the question of how to mitigate the effects of COVID-19 on our society.
 

Vaccines have been around for a long time and are generally proven to be safe and effective. Ever had a flu vaccine? Guess what, that’s a “new” and “untested” vaccine every year. We don’t know the long term side effects of the flu vaccines we put out, the shingles vaccine, or the chickenpox vaccine because they’re all relatively new. Yet we know enough about how vaccines work to generally accept that they will be safe in the long term. What about MRNA you say? Well the concept has been around for over a decade and has been shown to be safe as well. If it concerns you that much, seek out and get the J&J shot which works like any traditional vaccine.

Or don’t. But be aware, once this vaccine exits the emergency use phase, the courts absolutely support the ability of employers, including the military to make it a requirement for employment. Same with schools and businesses. You can absolutely refuse it if you want, but don’t be surprised when you can’t get your kid enrolled in school, or go on a cruise, or buy an airline ticket, or go to a concert, etc. etc. 

I’m not implying anything, just seeking to understand your views.  I note that instead of answering, you assumed an implication to my question and then called it wrong.  Ok.  Since your original argument was based on moral superiority (“Being vaccinated shows I give half a fuck about others”) I thought you’d have consistency of thought or application.

I don’t require convincing on the efficacy of vaccines writ large, nor do I need a reminder that in the military I’m going to follow orders.  I’m pro vaccine and have a three page shot record.  I’m merely curious at all the (inconsistent) moral posturing and discouragement of convincing good-faith debate... all of which is antithetical to a healthy society.   
 

Maybe I’m having a hard time forgetting the “experts” were unanimous in concluding we needed a war in Iraq to stop their WMD program.  Look man, I’m not trying to be a dick but one thing I’ve learned is that if an idea is good, it will withstand intellectual scrutiny.  And that lesson has made me generally distrustful of people who want to skip all debate and go straight to execution.  

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31 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

I’m not implying anything, just seeking to understand your views.  I note that instead of answering, you assumed an implication to my question and then called it wrong.  Ok.  Since your original argument was based on moral superiority (“Being vaccinated shows I give half a fuck about others”) I thought you’d have consistency of thought or application.

I don’t require convincing on the efficacy of vaccines writ large, nor do I need a reminder that in the military I’m going to follow orders.  I’m pro vaccine and have a three page shot record.  I’m merely curious at all the (inconsistent) moral posturing and discouragement of convincing good-faith debate... all of which is antithetical to a healthy society.   
 

Maybe I’m having a hard time forgetting the “experts” were unanimous in concluding we needed a war in Iraq to stop their WMD program.  Look man, I’m not trying to be a dick but one thing I’ve learned is that if an idea is good, it will withstand intellectual scrutiny.  And that lesson has made me generally distrustful of people who want to skip all debate and go straight to execution.  

Fair enough. I’m not insisting on stifling the debate. I’m just pretty sure we can go around and around on the abortion issue without uncovering any meaningful new information WRT the COVID vaccine. I don’t think that’s appropriate here. If you’d like to debate that issue separately, feel free to start another thread or PM me. 

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2 hours ago, Homestar said:

No one. But your exemption on those grounds is personal. Not religious. 

So...religious faith is not personal?  I have to subscribe to a certain organized religion to claim a religious exemption?  Why are certain religious organizations/their beliefs given more credibility than others?  

Picking and choosing which religious faiths and organizations are credible and not credible is a dangerous road to go down...

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4 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

ID to vote = RACIST!

Vaccine passport ID = BRILLIANT!

This... most states will give you an ID for a fee on the order of $5-20. That plus time off work, transportation, etc. could be argued to be a disincentive against the poorest/elderly. Fewer poor/elderly will have a (more expensive) smartphone to run the tracking apps to participate in society.

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On 3/30/2021 at 4:05 AM, magnetfreezer said:

This... most states will give you an ID for a fee on the order of $5-20. That plus time off work, transportation, etc. could be argued to be a disincentive against the poorest/elderly. Fewer poor/elderly will have a (more expensive) smartphone to run the tracking apps to participate in society.

$10 says iPhones will now become racist next 

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