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COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)


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1 hour ago, Prozac said:

Agree that this will be the likely situation, but how is this tyranny and not just market forces? Think about it. If you’re Delta, Carnival, Ticketmaster, or even a restaurant owner, why would you risk the optics of an outbreak at your venue? That could be absolutely devastating to your business. Of course you are going to try and mitigate that scenario by all means possible. So no, not so much tyranny as it’s the free market at work here. Related: if you’d like to travel to a foreign country, guess what? Sovereign nations get to decide their own entry requirements. Expect to dust off that old yellow vaccination card or have your vaccination status tied to your passport number. Like it or not, most of us will be getting this vaccine. I see it as a good thing as nothing short of this will get the global economy back up and moving. 

It is a growing tyranny rebranded in some ways.  NR had a good article on what I believe is the growing threat:

Davos Great Reset: The Culmination of Corporatism | National Review

A collusion of economic, government, media and cultural interests not particularly interested in the maddening inefficiency of representative democracy with minority rights.

I see your point as to private property and businesses having mask or vax policies, the current corollary of no firearms allowed in restaurant/store X doesn't drive me nuts as to some degree we are allowed to discriminate in our society and professional interactions but like pornography vs. art, you know the difference when you see it.  When the government or private institutions/establishments have intruded too far onto the personal freedom & autonomy of the individual citizen. 

It's a free market only if choices are different or there is an alternative, with the coordination and monopolizing of the last 20 or so years you really can't say it is a truly free market.  You can choose not to participate but that is not really different than being banned from the desired or essential service for the person who doesn't ascribe to policy or choice X.

Freedom is not the anti-thesis of smartly, fairly administered societies but it is getting to be viewed that way I fear.

Edited by Clark Griswold
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2 hours ago, Prozac said:

Agree that this will be the likely situation, but how is this tyranny and not just market forces? Think about it. If you’re Delta, Carnival, Ticketmaster, or even a restaurant owner, why would you risk the optics of an outbreak at your venue? That could be absolutely devastating to your business. Of course you are going to try and mitigate that scenario by all means possible. So no, not so much tyranny as it’s the free market at work here. Related: if you’d like to travel to a foreign country, guess what? Sovereign nations get to decide their own entry requirements. Expect to dust off that old yellow vaccination card or have your vaccination status tied to your passport number. Like it or not, most of us will be getting this vaccine. I see it as a good thing as nothing short of this will get the global economy back up and moving. 

It's still a tyranny. It's just who is holding the reigns our power is changed. State sovereignty is slowly being overcome by market forces and human networks. The modern state has not always been the status quo. Only the last 370 years. It's unsurprising a new status quo is begging to emerge. 

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Just now, Prozac said:

Cool. So if you’re in charge at Carnival, your plan is no vax required, it is what it is? Something like that? If not, how would you elect to protect your business? 

Oh no. I'd absolutely mandate it. And I'd be sure to give myself as much liability protection as possible in case that vax does cause a poor reaction in the future and somehow I'm agent to it's administration. I'm not going to let some ass hole jeapordize my billions of dollars. But I myself am probably not going to get the vax and I have enough money that I can afford a lifestyle where I won't have to. (Private air travel, exclusive vacation rentals, etc....) If in 3-4 years, noone has issues, then I'll very publicly get the vax to show that people who are hold outs have nothing to be afraid of and simoltaneosualy promote my business. 

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Fair ‘nuff. I just don’t get the tyranny part. SevenEleven doesn’t let you walk through their store with your junk hanging out. That’s not tyranny, that’s just them trying to protect their business from what most would consider antisocial and unhygienic behavior. 

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14 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Fair ‘nuff. I just don’t get the tyranny part. SevenEleven doesn’t let you walk through their store with your junk hanging out. That’s not tyranny, that’s just them trying to protect their business from what most would consider antisocial and unhygienic behavior. 

I don't think 7/11 gives a damn about unhygienic behavior.  Nor do most businesses.  Have you ever seen the clientele at the average Wal-Mart?  It's about what a business feels will drive customers away, such as a hobo's dick hanging out, and it's currently en vogue to slam others for downplaying the years most massive news event.  

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36 minutes ago, FLEA said:

If in 3-4 years, noone has issues, then I'll very publicly get the vax to show that people who are hold outs have nothing to be afraid of and simoltaneosualy promote my business. 

If we had a unified federal response to COVID you would have President Trump and President-elect Biden, along with major players from both sides, getting the vaccine together and publicly. I do understand some reluctance to the vaccine but I am firmly in the camp that the disease is worse then the cure so I will be getting it as soon as I am authorized to. 

I had a talk with my dad yesterday (who was a fighter pilot in the 80's) and the same discussion about the COVID vaccine was happening about the anthrax vaccine. Lots of people concerned that the shot would be worse than the small chance they would be attacked with anthrax. History might not repeat itself but it sure does rhyme. 

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16 minutes ago, Snuggie said:

If we had a unified federal response to COVID you would have President Trump and President-elect Biden, along with major players from both sides, getting the vaccine together and publicly. I do understand some reluctance to the vaccine but I am firmly in the camp that the disease is worse then the cure so I will be getting it as soon as I am authorized to. 

I had a talk with my dad yesterday (who was a fighter pilot in the 80's) and the same discussion about the COVID vaccine was happening about the anthrax vaccine. Lots of people concerned that the shot would be worse than the small chance they would be attacked with anthrax. History might not repeat itself but it sure does rhyme. 

You know the funny thing about the anthrax vaccine? The dude who sent all of those anthrax laced envelopes around the country to government officials? Yeah, he held the patent on it. Think about that for a minute....

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17 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

It is a growing tyranny rebranded in some ways.  NR had a good article on what I believe is the growing threat:

Davos Great Reset: The Culmination of Corporatism | National Review

A collusion of economic, government, media and cultural interests not particularly interested in the maddening inefficiency of representative democracy with minority rights.

I see your point as to private property and businesses having mask or vax policies, the current corollary of no firearms allowed in restaurant/store X doesn't drive me nuts as to some degree we are allowed to discriminate in our society and professional interactions but like pornography vs. art, you know the difference when you see it.  When the government or private institutions/establishments have intruded too far onto the personal freedom & autonomy of the individual citizen. 

It's a free market only if choices are different or there is an alternative, with the coordination and monopolizing of the last 20 or so years you really can't say it is a truly free market.  You can choose not to participate but that is not really different than being banned from the desired or essential service for the person who doesn't ascribe to policy or choice X.

Freedom is not the anti-thesis of smartly, fairly administered societies but it is getting to be viewed that way I fear.

Interesting stuff.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/06/now-is-the-time-for-a-great-reset/

"The COVID-19 crisis is affecting every facet of people’s lives in every corner of the world. But tragedy need not be its only legacy. On the contrary, the pandemic represents a rare but narrow window of opportunity to reflect, reimagine, and reset our world to create a healthier, more equitable, and more prosperous future."

I've wondered if the WEF really has any influence over anything.

When you hear of a person or company pushing a COVID related policy or restriction, google the parent company, once you find the top tier, find the CEO or prominent members of the board of directors. Search the WEF webpage here for that person or company: https://www.weforum.org/about/our-partners

Here's a few I did: Quantas, Ticketmaster, Time Magazine, Facebook, Reuters, VISA.

 

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Johns Hopkins University newspaper article. Published, then quickly deleted.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201126223119/https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2020/11/a-closer-look-at-u-s-deaths-due-to-covid-19

Quote

“The reason we have a higher number of reported COVID-19 deaths among older individuals than younger individuals is simply because every day in the U.S. older individuals die in higher numbers than younger individuals,” Briand said.

Briand also noted that 50,000 to 70,000 deaths are seen both before and after COVID-19, indicating that this number of deaths was normal long before COVID-19 emerged. Therefore, according to Briand, not only has COVID-19 had no effect on the percentage of deaths of older people, but it has also not increased the total number of deaths. 

These data analyses suggest that in contrast to most people’s assumptions, the number of deaths by COVID-19 is not alarming. In fact, it has relatively no effect on deaths in the United States.

The unlisted and likely soon to not exist YouTube vid of the webinar by by Dr. Genevieve Briand, MS in Applied Economics Assistant Program Director, that explains the numbers.

 

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1 hour ago, torqued said:

Johns Hopkins University newspaper article. Published, then quickly deleted.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201126223119/https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2020/11/a-closer-look-at-u-s-deaths-due-to-covid-19

The unlisted and likely soon to not exist YouTube vid of the webinar by by Dr. Genevieve Briand, MS in Applied Economics Assistant Program Director, that explains the numbers.

 

Maybe it was removed because it was bogus? That student article, produced by an undergrad with literally less qualifications than anyone on this forum, has no basis in real statistics. The TRUTH is that we’ve had over 300k excess deaths just until October, and probably tens of thousands since then.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm

This is a bullshit quote from that article:

All of this points to no evidence that COVID-19 created any excess deaths. Total death numbers are not above normal death numbers. We found no evidence to the contrary,” Briand concluded.”

Wtf are you guys posting?

Heres another dumbass quote:

Briand also noted that 50,000 to 70,000 deaths are seen both before and after COVID-19, indicating that this number of deaths was normal long before COVID-19 emerged. Therefore, according to Briand, not only has COVID-19 had no effect on the percentage of deaths of older people, but it has also not increased the total number of deaths.“

What? This article makes literally no sense. You guys really want to believe in the Illuminati and superhero’s and finding the “real truth.” Get it together.

The truth is, excess deaths are calculated without any respect to cause of death. And every analysis of excess deaths - by the way, in dozens of countries - shows that there have been hundreds of thousands more deaths this year than there should have been, with a large portion being from folks 60+.

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“Briand was quoted in the article as saying, “All of this points to no evidence that COVID-19 created any excess deaths. Total death numbers are not above normal death numbers.” This claim is incorrect and does not take into account the spike in raw death count from all causes compared to previous years. According to the CDC, there have been almost 300,000 excess deaths due to COVID-19. Additionally, Briand presented data of total U.S. deaths in comparison to COVID-19-related deaths as a proportion percentage, which trivializes the repercussions of the pandemic. This evidence does not disprove the severity of COVID-19; an increase in excess deaths is not represented in these proportionalities because they are offered as percentages, not raw numbers.

Briand also claimed in her analysis that deaths due to heart diseases, respiratory diseases, influenza and pneumonia may be incorrectly categorized as COVID-19-related deaths. However, COVID-19 disproportionately affects those with preexisting conditions, so those with those underlying conditions are statistically more likely to be severely affected and die from the virus.”

This is your captain speaking, please return to your seats and remove your tin foil hats.

Seriously? Like I’m legitimately flabbergasted that you guys are arguing that an article that says that there have been ZERO excess deaths this year is being shared and gawked over.

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3 hours ago, torqued said:

Johns Hopkins University newspaper article. Published, then quickly deleted.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201126223119/https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2020/11/a-closer-look-at-u-s-deaths-due-to-covid-19

The unlisted and likely soon to not exist YouTube vid of the webinar by by Dr. Genevieve Briand, MS in Applied Economics Assistant Program Director, that explains the numbers.

 

https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/20/cdc-data-excess-deaths-covid-19/
 

I looked up excess death numbers and they seemed to agree it was over 300,000, although I think it’s all from one source. I don’t see how there is no excess death when regardless of your stance on the Rona it is obviously killing some people. Seems like classic I found one (questionable) study that supports my views so it’s the most correct study.

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12 hours ago, Negatory said:

"usual BS.....

Seriously? Like I’m legitimately flabbergasted that you guys are arguing that an article that says that there have been ZERO excess deaths this year is being shared and gawked over."

Since you are the only forum member who responded to this article, I'm guessing you're flabbergasted that you're arguing with yourself about this article.

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On 11/29/2020 at 11:06 AM, Negatory said:

“Briand was quoted in the article as saying, “All of this points to no evidence that COVID-19 created any excess deaths. Total death numbers are not above normal death numbers.” This claim is incorrect and does not take into account the spike in raw death count from all causes compared to previous years. According to the CDC, there have been almost 300,000 excess deaths due to COVID-19. Additionally, Briand presented data of total U.S. deaths in comparison to COVID-19-related deaths as a proportion percentage, which trivializes the repercussions of the pandemic. This evidence does not disprove the severity of COVID-19; an increase in excess deaths is not represented in these proportionalities because they are offered as percentages, not raw numbers.

Briand also claimed in her analysis that deaths due to heart diseases, respiratory diseases, influenza and pneumonia may be incorrectly categorized as COVID-19-related deaths. However, COVID-19 disproportionately affects those with preexisting conditions, so those with those underlying conditions are statistically more likely to be severely affected and die from the virus.”

This is your captain speaking, please return to your seats and remove your tin foil hats.

Seriously? Like I’m legitimately flabbergasted that you guys are arguing that an article that says that there have been ZERO excess deaths this year is being shared and gawked over.

"Flabbergasted" or "Apoplectic"? The consecutive posts of alternating large/small double underlined font could indicate either.

I appreciate the time you've taken to present your opposing viewpoint. Just understand that I'm not a Johns Hopkins professor with a PhD. I just find it interesting that one would attempt to make such a controversial claim, and for what reason? If you're looking for somewhere to direct your apparent anger and indignation, her contact info is easily found. I fully understand that, as Mark Twain says, there are three types of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics. She has hers, you have yours. Statistics, that is.

As for the claims on both sides, I think there's always an element of truth. The answer always lies in the middle. Did 300,000 people die from COVID? Possibly. Are there errors and misrepresentations within those numbers? Possibly. It's impossible for either of us to believe we 100% know what is true unless one of us has unsubstantiated faith in our sources.

Brother, relax a little. If you're going to get all bent out of shape and attempt to contravene, ridicule, and silence every bit of information out of existence that competes with your beliefs, you're gonna wear yourself out. I'm glad you're skeptical of these things, as am I. Same team.

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3 hours ago, torqued said:

"Flabbergasted" or "Apoplectic"? The consecutive posts of alternating large/small double underlined font could indicate either.

I appreciate the time you've taken to present your opposing viewpoint. Just understand that I'm not a Johns Hopkins professor with a PhD. I just find it interesting that one would attempt to make such a controversial claim, and for what reason? If you're looking for somewhere to direct your apparent anger and indignation, her contact info is easily found. I fully understand that, as Mark Twain says, there are three types of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics. She has hers, you have yours. Statistics, that is.

As for the claims on both sides, I think there's always an element of truth. The answer always lies in the middle. Did 300,000 people die from COVID? Possibly. Are there errors and misrepresentations within those numbers? Possibly. It's impossible for either of us to believe we 100% know what is true unless one of us has unsubstantiated faith in our sources.

Brother, relax a little. If you're going to get all bent out of shape and attempt to contravene, ridicule, and silence every bit of information out of existence that competes with your beliefs, you're gonna wear yourself out. I'm glad you're skeptical of these things, as am I. Same team.

It's utter nonsense.  Are we at 300,000 Covid-19 deaths?  I don't know.  But I know for sure we have had more deaths this year because of Covid-19, whatever your Johns Hopkins professor wants to say.  This is a far outlier that disagrees with the entire medical community...not buying it.

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3 hours ago, torqued said:

Brother, relax a little. If you're going to get all bent out of shape and attempt to contravene, ridicule, and silence every bit of information out of existence that competes with your beliefs, you're gonna wear yourself out. I'm glad you're skeptical of these things, as am I. Same team.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

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25 minutes ago, pawnman said:

It's utter nonsense.  Are we at 300,000 Covid-19 deaths?  I don't know.  But I know for sure we have had more deaths this year because of Covid-19, whatever your Johns Hopkins professor wants to say.  This is a far outlier that disagrees with the entire medical community...not buying it.

Not my professor. I also know for sure we've had COVID-19 deaths this year.

If the CDC reported 2,540 fewer cases of heart disease on 18 Apr from the previous week, while simultaneously reporting 2,561 more cases of COVID-19 than the previous week, that's a net increase of 21 deaths.

 

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So is your stance also that we can’t prove the terrorists were behind 9/11 or the Holocaust was real?  Because, although the vast majority of society, historians, scientists, and the government hold those positions, they technically are unknowable. Just like almost every fundamental “truth,” if you ascribe to Fitch’s paradox.

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11 minutes ago, Negatory said:

So is your stance also that we can’t prove the terrorists were behind 9/11 or the Holocaust was real?  Because, although the vast majority of society, historians, scientists, and the government hold those positions, they technically are unknowable. Just like almost every fundamental “truth,” if you ascribe to Fitch’s paradox.

No, I just thought we were posting random irrelevant wikipedia articles without commentary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

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