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COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)


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3 hours ago, dogfish78 said:

Cope. Instead of deflecting from @ecugringo's argument, try debating him on the merits. It is a genuine question, not a snide late night "comedy" talk show quip. For me a big one is this: genuinely, can they say this won't harm young men and women's reproductive system? It's already caused issues with women's menstrual cycles. It would be logical to presume it would also cause issues with the rest of their reproductive system. Young people want healthy children and to make a family, but the lies, coercion, and missing data are not convincing them to take this experimental drug. This is a big reason I'm seeing in those I work with as to why they're not taking it.

Nah.  The "What else don't they know about it?" is not an argument, it feels more like an assumption generator that's feeding into a mass hysteria.

Here's an argument.  Covid can kill.  Facts.  1. Lots of people that got covid died.  Prove me wrong.  See, that's an argument.

And you did it as well, just tossed out some talking points on effects to reproductive health, something about lies, coercion, and missing data.  If this is 1st hand, I hope your cycle returns to normal soon.  If it's from a study of 10K women in Israel, cite your work.  Next, what data is missing?  Let us know and maybe someone can find it for you. 

Pfizer is no longer experimental, and wasn't experimental when shots were approved under Emergency Use.  The experiment parts were the 40K+ people taking shots during the phase trials.  Now if you feel apprehension for taking a new vaccine because there's a pandemic and wondering how they made it so quickly and so on, talk to a doc. 

Lastly, I did my research and got the shot, specifically choosing Pfizer/BioNTech as they were the pioneers of mRNA R&D.  I got my armor and feel I should be able to go about as I please.   

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One of the most important tenets of liberal thought is:

you should be able to do what you want unless it impacts someone else

A lot of anti vax people think their choice to not get the shot is solely a personal one with little to no ramifications on others. After all, if you're vaccinated why would you worry about getting covid from an unvaxxed person. 
 

Except there's a catch.
 

Healthcare is a finite resource and non vaccinated people are taking up almost all of the bandwidth. Across all age groups, the unvaccinated are far more likely to contract severe illness and require hospitalization. When your trash decision puts you in the hospital and you take an ICU bed from someone needing urgent care for something that wasn't preventable, your decision just hurt someone else.  I'll say the same for obese people and smokers. Your trash lifestyle and decision making has upped your risk factors and you are negatively impacting others. 
 

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2 hours ago, Pooter said:

One of the most important tenets of liberal thought is:

you should be able to do what you want unless it impacts someone else

A lot of anti vax people think their choice to not get the shot is solely a personal one with little to no ramifications on others. After all, if you're vaccinated why would you worry about getting covid from an unvaxxed person. 
 

Except there's a catch.
 

Healthcare is a finite resource and non vaccinated people are taking up almost all of the bandwidth. Across all age groups, the unvaccinated are far more likely to contract severe illness and require hospitalization. When your trash decision puts you in the hospital and you take an ICU bed from someone needing urgent care for something that wasn't preventable, your decision just hurt someone else.  I'll say the same for obese people and smokers. Your trash lifestyle and decision making has upped your risk factors and you are negatively impacting others. 
 

Are there only two groups in the discussion? Unvaxed vs vaxed? How about children? How about previously infected people? How about people sub 40 who are healthy?Isn’t it weird how every issue boils down to one group vs the other— almost like the media is fueling division… The infection fatality ratio for children under 12 is 3500X less than those 65 plus according to CDCs best estimates https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

it just seems a little simplistic to boil it down to two group.
 

Also we know the long term risk of smoking, do we know the long term risk of covid or the vaccine? No.

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2 hours ago, Pooter said:

One of the most important tenets of liberal thought is:

you should be able to do what you want unless it impacts someone else

A lot of anti vax people think their choice to not get the shot is solely a personal one with little to no ramifications on others. After all, if you're vaccinated why would you worry about getting covid from an unvaxxed person. 
 

Except there's a catch.
 

Healthcare is a finite resource and non vaccinated people are taking up almost all of the bandwidth. Across all age groups, the unvaccinated are far more likely to contract severe illness and require hospitalization. When your trash decision puts you in the hospital and you take an ICU bed from someone needing urgent care for something that wasn't preventable, your decision just hurt someone else.  I'll say the same for obese people and smokers. Your trash lifestyle and decision making has upped your risk factors and you are negatively impacting others. 
 

Lol.  Liberals love to pretend they cherish your above stated core tenet.  But there’s always an anti-freedom catch that forces others to comply.  There’s a catch with owning guns, there’s a catch with free speech on campus, there’s a catch with medical care, posting on Facebook, abortion, church services, public schools, election law, immigration, etc.  In fact there’s no subject where liberals actually live out your alleged core tenet.  They’re just tyrannical hypocrites every time.

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On 9/8/2021 at 11:16 AM, Scooter14 said:

 

Seeing and hearing what we both view as somewhat preventable is hard to see play out here and elsewhere.

This is the single biggest complication with liberal ideology (I'm not saying you are necessarily a liberal).

 

Smart people who have a track record of making responsible choices that lead to successful outcomes look at the people around them, many of whom are in fact not nearly as smart, and despair the bad choices they make that often lead to worse outcomes.

 

It eventually leads (with the best intentions) to restricting, discouraging, or outright banning the behavior.

 

And without fail, the people who were meant to be helped by the ban find new and creative ways to self-destruct. That's just how humans are. For many, many people they only learn successful habits through failure. Even very smart, otherwise rational people. Taking away that failure opportunity only send them in another destructive direction, except now they are exacerbated by the rage of having some well-meaning prick tell them what the "must" do.

 

There is a positive correlation between personal freedoms and national power and wealth. Paradoxically, short term complications lead to long term success.

Edited by Lord Ratner
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12 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

This is the single biggest complication with liberal ideology (I'm not saying you are necessarily a liberal).

 

Smart people who have a track record of making responsible choices that lead to successful outcomes look at the people around them, many of whom are in fact not nearly as smart, and despair the bad choices they make that often lead to worse outcomes.

 

It eventually leads (with the best intentions) to restricting, discouraging, or outright banning the behavior.

 

And without fail, the people who were meant to be helped by the ban find new and creative ways to self-destruct. That's just how humans are. For many, many people they only learn successful habits through failure. Even very smart, otherwise rational people. Taking away that failure opportunity only send them in another destructive direction, except now they are abilities by the rage of having some well-meaning prick tell them what the "must" do.

 

There is a positive correlation between personal freedoms and national power and wealth. Paradoxically, short term complications lead to long term success.

In the end I think most humans don't like to be told what to do, doesn't matter whether the agenda you are trying to push is good or bad for whoever you are trying to push it on, and it doesn't matter whether they are smart or dumb. 

Your thought logic is that people should be free to make mistakes and learn the hard way. Totally agree. 

Problem is on a national "big decision level", some mistakes can only be made once and there are no do overs. We are (for the most part) a majority rules system, and the majority isn't always the smartest half. 

 

Is COVID one of those big decisions? I don't think so, those most vulnerable have access to the shot. Those who don't want it most likely will make it if they get COVID, if we lose a few stragglers, oh well. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Pooter said:

One of the most important tenets of liberal thought is:

you should be able to do what you want unless it impacts someone else

A lot of anti vax people think their choice to not get the shot is solely a personal one with little to no ramifications on others. After all, if you're vaccinated why would you worry about getting covid from an unvaxxed person. 

Except there's a catch.

Healthcare is a finite resource and non vaccinated people are taking up almost all of the bandwidth. Across all age groups, the unvaccinated are far more likely to contract severe illness and require hospitalization. When your trash decision puts you in the hospital and you take an ICU bed from someone needing urgent care for something that wasn't preventable, your decision just hurt someone else.  I'll say the same for obese people and smokers. Your trash lifestyle and decision making has upped your risk factors and you are negatively impacting others. 

I agree with you except in regards to the framing.

That's not a tenet of liberal thought. Maybe it was in terms of what would traditionally be thought of as enlightenment liberalism, but certainly not modern liberalism that we see enacted by modern democrats and the like. That tenet you cite is much more closely aligned to what modern conservatives and libertarians believe than what democrats think.

And to your "catch," the imagined conflict evaporates when you actually realize the truth: that healthcare is a resource (as you put it), but your argument actually stems from an assumption that it's a right - which is a tenet of modern liberal thought.

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On 8/2/2021 at 8:11 PM, busdriver said:

This is the fundamental disconnect.  Some agree with you.  Some think the primary purpose of government is protect its citizens rights.

Lest we forget the summary of all 105 pages in one paragraph. @busdriver

Here is to another 105🍻 lol

Edited by glockenspiel
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I keep seeing reports of significant numbers of USAF pilots and crew quitting over the vax, but can't find the source. There's likely not going to be an official statement regarding such.

Specifically, at Langley F-22  and Barksdale B-52 squadrons. I have my doubts, but I personally know 4-5 guard pilots who plan to make it known that they're retiring during tomorrow's drill.

True or False?

 

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42 minutes ago, Alpharatz said:

They can bring 'em up to date on the bugshot at out processing...The airlines will get 'em anyway....As far as Guard pilots..that's what happened many moons ago when the sandbox fired up...No one cared..

Your personal opinion is duly noted, but I'm just asking if it's true.

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I keep seeing reports of significant numbers of USAF pilots and crew quitting over the vax, but can't find the source. There's likely not going to be an official statement regarding such.
Specifically, at Langley F-22  and Barksdale B-52 squadrons. I have my doubts, but I personally know 4-5 guard pilots who plan to make it known that they're retiring during tomorrow's drill.
True or False?
 

Joke is going to be on them now that any company over 100 employees has a vaccine mandate now.

It’s a really dumb hill to die on folks especially people with multiple pages of immunizations and a slew of them being for anthrax. Like really who has seen anthrax besides that Daschle mail thing in like 2002?


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14 minutes ago, the g-man said:


Joke is going to be on them now that any company over 100 employees has a vaccine mandate now.

It’s a really dumb hill to die on folks especially people with multiple pages of immunizations and a slew of them being for anthrax. Like really who has seen anthrax besides that Daschle mail thing in like 2002?
 

Slow down, dude. If we can't even establish if this is true, you're just beating up a straw man.

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On 9/9/2021 at 12:31 AM, disgruntledemployee said:

Nah.  The "What else don't they know about it?" is not an argument, it feels more like an assumption generator that's feeding into a mass hysteria.

Here's an argument.  Covid can kill.  Facts.  1. Lots of people that got covid died.  Prove me wrong.  See, that's an argument.

And you did it as well, just tossed out some talking points on effects to reproductive health, something about lies, coercion, and missing data.  If this is 1st hand, I hope your cycle returns to normal soon.  If it's from a study of 10K women in Israel, cite your work.  Next, what data is missing?  Let us know and maybe someone can find it for you. 

Pfizer is no longer experimental, and wasn't experimental when shots were approved under Emergency Use.  The experiment parts were the 40K+ people taking shots during the phase trials.  Now if you feel apprehension for taking a new vaccine because there's a pandemic and wondering how they made it so quickly and so on, talk to a doc. 

Lastly, I did my research and got the shot, specifically choosing Pfizer/BioNTech as they were the pioneers of mRNA R&D.  I got my armor and feel I should be able to go about as I please.   

Covid kills fatasses and people with other comorbidities. It's like the Coulter effect with media reporting on crime. The longer it takes for the media to admit the apparent race of a criminal, the more likely the alleged criminal is black. The longer it take the media to admit any comorbidities of a covid death, the more likely the decedent was not very healthy to begin with. Turns out guzzling diet ™️ aspartame corn syrup for decades doesn't build an immune system.

The "doctors" (medical physicians) parrot what their drug representatives (a.k.a. lobbyists)->employer->corrupted state licensing board->corrupted CDC/FDA tell them. There are many physicians which are speaking out, but are censored/told to stfu or lose their job/license/life. REMEMBER: medical malpractice is the third leading cause of death in the United States.

The drug is experimental. The clinical trial doesn't end until 2023.

>inb4 omg @dogfish78 my wife's boyfriend's son got covid and he's healthy as can be and not a fatass! 

Reread my above post.

Edited by dogfish78
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7 hours ago, torqued said:

I keep seeing reports of significant numbers of USAF pilots and crew quitting over the vax, but can't find the source. There's likely not going to be an official statement regarding such.

Specifically, at Langley F-22  and Barksdale B-52 squadrons. I have my doubts, but I personally know 4-5 guard pilots who plan to make it known that they're retiring during tomorrow's drill.

True or False?

 

In my personal corner of the AF (AFSOC) my squadron was sitting at over 85% vaccinated before it was mandatory.  I do not know nor have I heard of anyone that’s planning to get out or request an exemption.

  I’m currently in an AETC MC-J transition course; yesterday we got an email saying the 19th AF/CC has dictated that any student in formal training that plans on requesting a COVID exemption will immediately be placed in an administrative hold status (frozen in training) until the exemption is processed and approved/disapproved; it went on to give a gist of if disapproved and the individual still refuses the shot they’ll be administratively separated from the service.

  If this truly is your sword make sure you’re ready to fall on it…

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7 hours ago, torqued said:

I keep seeing reports of significant numbers of USAF pilots and crew quitting over the vax, but can't find the source. There's likely not going to be an official statement regarding such.

Specifically, at Langley F-22  and Barksdale B-52 squadrons. I have my doubts, but I personally know 4-5 guard pilots who plan to make it known that they're retiring during tomorrow's drill.

True or False?

 

https://realrawnews.com/2021/09/27-u-s-air-force-pilots-resign-over-covid-19-vaccination-mandate/

100% false. You guys are falling for the realrawnews story again. If you haven’t seen that website, its the one that will tell you all about how Hillary Clinton has been executed and Trump is running the secret real US government from Gitmo. Look, Bill Gates is on trial, day 4, by the military tribunal. YGBSM.

Every time a smart, educated pilot/military officer gets tricked into even halfway believing that type of news it reminds me that no one actually has the time to sort through not just bullshit, but intentional misinformation. Why should that platform be allowed to spread blatant lies to people like this forum? It makes everyone, and especially the conversation, significantly more stupid.

EDIT: This is the same site that lied and said that a Marine General told SECDEF and POTUS to fuck off when vaccine mandates for military came out. Turns out that Marine General got the vaccine in the first months it was available, of course, but people were still creaming themselves that it might have actually happened.

Edited by Negatory
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16 minutes ago, Negatory said:

https://realrawnews.com/2021/09/27-u-s-air-force-pilots-resign-over-covid-19-vaccination-mandate/

100% false. You guys are falling for the realrawnews story again. If you haven’t seen that website, its the one that will tell you all about how Hillary Clinton has been executed and Trump is running the secret real US government from Gitmo. Look, Bill Gates is on trial, day 4, by the military tribunal. YGBSM.

Every time a smart, educated pilot/military officer gets tricked into even halfway believing that type of news it reminds me that no one actually has the time to sort through not just bullshit, but intentional misinformation. Why should that platform be allowed to spread blatant lies to people like this forum? It makes everyone, and especially the conversation, significantly more stupid.

EDIT: This is the same site that lied and said that a Marine General told SECDEF and POTUS to fuck off when vaccine mandates for military came out. Turns out that Marine General got the vaccine in the first months it was available, of course, but people were still creaming themselves that it might have actually happened.

Dude cool it. Guy was very honestly inquiring about the veracity of the story which has been reported by multiple questionable outlets. It's quite clear he had his own suspicions already and was looking for more info, or as you so eloquently put it, was trying to sort through the bullshit. Noone fell for this story but you come off as a total ass hole with the tone of your post. 

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39 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Dude cool it. Guy was very honestly inquiring about the veracity of the story which has been reported by multiple questionable outlets. It's quite clear he had his own suspicions already and was looking for more info, or as you so eloquently put it, was trying to sort through the bullshit. Noone fell for this story but you come off as a total ass hole with the tone of your post. 

Copy shot. My anger is misplaced.

I am tired of misinformation permeating all aspects of everything. This was not a foul on @torquedwho literally asked 3 times if it was real.

My bad.

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On 9/10/2021 at 8:01 AM, torqued said:

I keep seeing reports of significant numbers of USAF pilots and crew quitting over the vax, but can't find the source. There's likely not going to be an official statement regarding such.

Specifically, at Langley F-22  and Barksdale B-52 squadrons. I have my doubts, but I personally know 4-5 guard pilots who plan to make it known that they're retiring during tomorrow's drill.

True or False?

 

Updates on the 4~5 Guard pilots saying they're retiring?

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5 hours ago, dogfish78 said:

Updates on the 4~5 Guard pilots saying they're retiring?

They are all hanging it up. To be fair, 3 of them were over 20 anyhow. The 4th has met his original commitment, but well short of 20, and 2 years into an airline career. Super well respected and a natural leader, so his departure is going to make some people stop and think. The 5th guy, I'm not sure of his circumstances.

Leadership shrugs. They're all Techs and AGRs and content to punch a clock if nothing else. The SQ had already become a revolving door for AD folks clamoring to get out and bum at the Guard, saying they're going to "make a career of it". They soon find out it's just Active Duty Light, so they quietly work to get their real job, then go non-current, and leave shortly thereafter.

So, the shot was just another drop in the bucket of grievances that was already full for most.

 

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