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COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)


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2 hours ago, Negatory said:

No, I choose to get my data from a wide cohort of studies. I deliberately do NOT pick and choose. This included me looking very closely into things like hydroxychloriquine and mask usage. And when I find out that over 90% of them agree that one thing is more likely than the other, I go with that.

Science is not some way to just pick and choose whatever you want while ignoring the other side. It’s humanity’s best method to settle emotional debates - like the one you are trying to have right now.

The same “science” that had any mention of a lab leak banned on the internet?

until it became accepted?

that “science”?

the same “science” that says wear masks outdoors without having documented cases of outdoor virus spread?

the same “science” that wouldn’t let people go to church but then claimed the mass demonstrations this summer were ok?

The same “science” that said one mask was good. Then suddenly one isn’t enough TWO is the best?

the same “science” that picks and chooses the CCP’s narrative and lockdown solution?

The CDC and fauci have ZERO FUCKING CREDIBILITY

 

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2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Says the Nav who would intentionally seek out those not wearing a mask who haven’t had the shot and issue punishment under Article 15…

Or am I just “trolling you”?  Even though you didn’t even comment on the substance of the article I just posted…

Let me know when you agree with the medical professionals and start wearing a mask again everywhere you go.  

He's a nav? 

Now it all makes sense!

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On 6/26/2021 at 7:59 PM, Guardian said:

Love subjective anecdotal discussions.

I’m more interested in factual based discussions. Not emotion.

Hard to have a fact based discussion when you distrust everyone who collects the data.

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18 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

The same “science” that had any mention of a lab leak banned on the internet?

until it became accepted?

that “science”?

the same “science” that says wear masks outdoors without having documented cases of outdoor virus spread?

the same “science” that wouldn’t let people go to church but then claimed the mass demonstrations this summer were ok?

The same “science” that said one mask was good. Then suddenly one isn’t enough TWO is the best?

the same “science” that picks and chooses the CCP’s narrative and lockdown solution?

The CDC and fauci have ZERO FUCKING CREDIBILITY

 

You're right...much more credibility from random strangers on the internet than the people who literally study epidemics professionally.

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19 minutes ago, pawnman said:

You're right...much more credibility from random strangers on the internet than the people who literally study epidemics professionally.

"We got to make that transition," Fauci said in an interview with CBS News after anchor Gayle King said people give her "the side-eye" when she takes her mask off outside, even though she's fully vaccinated. "If you are vaccinated and you are outside, put aside your mask, you don't have to wear it.“

- may 13 2021


Fauci and Jill Biden 25 June 2021

3A32BB46-0DF2-4199-81EE-B1CAF450EE56.png

Edited by BashiChuni
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I know you don't understand immune systems because you think a vaccine for one disease impacts your ability to fight other diseases.
Did you spend a week in an isolated bubble after getting the smallpox, anthrax, or flu vaccine?  No?  Weren't you worried about your immune systems in those cases?
Here you go.  Read to your heart's content.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/conversations/understanding-vacc-work.html
 

I never said all. Just specifically the covid vaccine with regards to other covid strains. Didn’t even say that specifically either though. Did you watch the video I provided or read the link? Or should I just disregard your link like I’m guessing you did mine?

Maybe I wasn’t clear. Watch the video. See if it makes scientific sense that your immune system is actually compromised after taking these specific covid vaccines and it has trouble in the future even with the strain it’s meant to help against.
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Oh goody, another pilot who know more about immunology than immunologists and doctors.
Would you extend the same level of credence to a doctor who read about aviation on the internet? Would you believe a guy who flew jets for 20 years, or a guy who googled an article about lift and drag?
Dunning Kruger on full display in this thread.
 
 

Your analogies are stunningly wild and not relevant. Makes me wonder things about you…..
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Says the Nav who would intentionally seek out those not wearing a mask who haven’t had the shot and issue punishment under Article 15…
Or am I just “trolling you”?  Even though you didn’t even comment on the substance of the article I just posted…
Let me know when you agree with the medical professionals and start wearing a mask again everywhere you go.  

And I wonder no more……Oh wait. Pawnman is a Nav? Haha. Ok. Got it.

Seems like you are the Nav that gives Navs a bad name. You build 100 bridges and you’re a bridge builder, you have sex with ONE goat and…..
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Hard to have a fact based discussion when you distrust everyone who collects the data.

Who said I distrust everyone? What are you even talking about? I was asking you legitimate questions and you go to mis quoting me and getting angry because I was curious what backing and answers you had for your opinion. Not just subjective conjecture.

Are you General Chang?
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6 minutes ago, Guardian said:


Who said I distrust everyone? What are you even talking about? I was asking you legitimate questions and you go to mis quoting me and getting angry because I was curious what backing and answers you had for your opinion. Not just subjective conjecture.

Are you General Chang?

Wow...five quotes in a row.  

But no, I'm not Chang.

I am going to tap put of this conversation, because if I don't, I think I'll say things that will get my posting privileges revoked. 

Good luck fighting the vaccines when they're made mandatory.  I wonder if y'all will fight your airline employers with the same fervor when you find out they're making all the passengers wear masks.

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For what it's worth, I trust the vaccine because of the pharmaceutical companies, not in spite of them. 
 

Conservatives (including myself) love to tout how the free market in America fosters more medical innovation than anywhere else on the planet. And I really believe that is the case. Most drugs are developed here. If you need world class surgery of pretty much any kind, you come here. The system isn't perfect but on the innovation front, we solve the shit out of medical problems.
 

And the covid pandemic is the perfect example of that. 9 months ago the US was the covid dumpster fire of the entire world, and now because of these vaccines we are more open, back to normal, and with lower case loads than almost anywhere else. That's an amazing achievement and it has absolutely nothing to do with the government. 
 

It has to do with the awesomely smart people who figured this shit out and who would have never signed off on it if the benefits didn't outweigh the risks. It also has to do with the fact that the free market incentivized these companies to make a vaccine that would actually work. They knew they'd have to compete with other vaccine brands and they also knew the mother of all global class action lawsuits would be waiting for them if they porked it.

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19 minutes ago, Pooter said:

For what it's worth, I trust the vaccine because of the pharmaceutical companies, not in spite of them. 
 

Conservatives (including myself) love to tout how the free market in America fosters more medical innovation than anywhere else on the planet. And I really believe that is the case. Most drugs are developed here. If you need world class surgery of pretty much any kind, you come here. The system isn't perfect but on the innovation front, we solve the shit out of medical problems.
 

And the covid pandemic is the perfect example of that. 9 months ago the US was the covid dumpster fire of the entire world, and now because of these vaccines we are more open, back to normal, and with lower case loads than almost anywhere else. That's an amazing achievement and it has absolutely nothing to do with the government. 
 

It has to do with the awesomely smart people who figured this shit out and who would have never signed off on it if the benefits didn't outweigh the risks. It also has to do with the fact that the free market incentivized these companies to make a vaccine that would actually work. They knew they'd have to compete with other vaccine brands and they also knew the mother of all global class action lawsuits would be waiting for them if they porked it.

Edit: these vaccines are so good they made the liberals clinging to mask wearing look like complete idiots. What's not to love?

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9 hours ago, pawnman said:

Based on no data, because by my count, you've discounted every source of data.

You don't trust the federal government (while employed by the federal government...interesting irony there).

You don't trust the CDC.

You don't trust the NIH.

You don't trust the FDA.

You don't trust the vaccine manufacturers.

You don't trust the data from state and local governments.

You don't trust the WHO.

I'm just curious what actual information you do trust to make these decisions.  I'm also curious if you'd have the same disdain for medical professionals if you were being treated for something other than Covid.  Would you go on Google and second-guess every decision your oncologist made?  Maybe you'd argue with the x-ray technician about your kid's broken arm?


Here are some examples of your “trust”…

The Federal Government:

The CDC:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/502890-fauci-why-the-public-wasnt-told-to-wear-masks

The NIH:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/rand-paul-dr-fauci-lied-congress-china-virus-research

The FDA:

The same FDA which hasn’t given full approval to the vaccine and only has approved it under emergency authorization?  Which is why I’m assuming the military hasn’t required it’s members to take the shot? 

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/03/01/military-may-revisit-making-covid-19-vaccines-mandatory-after-fda-grants-approval.html

The vaccine manufacturers:

Wait, so we’re now believing everything big pharma says and does? 

https://newrepublic.com/article/153864/innovation-drug-price-myth
 

State governments:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/cuomo-lied-and-now-we-know-it/ar-BB1ddSqr
 

The WHO:

A tweet from the World Health Organization, January 14: “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in Wuhan, China.”


https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/who-does-who-trust/

Medical professionals:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/health-care-workers-say-protests-are-vital-despite-coronavirus-risks-11591790600

As for medical folks on an X-Ray, fortunately my brother literally didn’t trust an initial prognosis after a skiing accident in which x-rays didn’t show any breaks…a week later he went to a sports fitness doctor and was in surgery a few days later.  If you’re not willing to get another opinion on things that concern you/doesn’t sound right, then that’s your call.

My problem with you and others isn’t what you do or don’t do with your own lives, it’s that you negatively judge and put down others who don’t agree with you or see things the same way.  I’m literally fine with people getting the covid shot and also fine with people not getting it.  I also most definitely believe that for the vast majority of people who aren’t old and/or don’t have any underlining health issues that they’ll be just fine if they get covid.  So if those same people don’t feel comfortable getting an experimental vaccine, then why insult them?  And if you think people are killing grandma or whatever and still believe the WHO, then I’m assuming you’re still wearing as mask wherever you go?

And if you blindly trust the government bureaucrats and politicians (yes, even if you’re on their payroll—don’t forget, we’re just the help), then I can’t help you.  I have family who literally believed everything Obama and his administration said, and also have family who believed everything Trump and his administration said…fortunately I’m not in either group.

 

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1 minute ago, HeloDude said:


Here are some examples of your “trust”…

The Federal Government:

The CDC:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/502890-fauci-why-the-public-wasnt-told-to-wear-masks

The NIH:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/rand-paul-dr-fauci-lied-congress-china-virus-research

The FDA:

The same FDA which hasn’t given full approval to the vaccine and only has approved it under emergency authorization?  Which is why I’m assuming the military hasn’t required it’s members to take the shot? 

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/03/01/military-may-revisit-making-covid-19-vaccines-mandatory-after-fda-grants-approval.html

The vaccine manufacturers:

Wait, so we’re now believing everything big pharma says and does? 

https://newrepublic.com/article/153864/innovation-drug-price-myth
 

State governments:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/cuomo-lied-and-now-we-know-it/ar-BB1ddSqr
 

The WHO:

A tweet from the World Health Organization, January 14: “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in Wuhan, China.”


https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/who-does-who-trust/

Medical professionals:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/health-care-workers-say-protests-are-vital-despite-coronavirus-risks-11591790600

As for medical folks on an X-Ray, fortunately my brother literally didn’t trust an initial prognosis after a skiing accident in which x-rays didn’t show any breaks…a week later he went to a sports fitness doctor and was in surgery a few days later.  If you’re not willing to get another opinion on things that concern you/doesn’t sound right, then that’s your call.

My problem with you and others isn’t what you do or don’t do with your own lives, it’s that you negatively judge and put down others who don’t agree with you or see things the same way.  I’m literally fine with people getting the covid shot and also fine with people not getting it.  I also most definitely believe that for the vast majority of people who aren’t old and/or don’t have any underlining health issues that they’ll be just fine if they get covid.  So if those same people don’t feel comfortable getting an experimental vaccine, then why insult them?  And if you think people are killing grandma or whatever and still believe the WHO, then I’m assuming you’re still wearing as mask wherever you go?

And if you blindly trust the government bureaucrats and politicians (yes, even if you’re on their payroll—don’t forget, we’re just the help), then I can’t help you.  I have family who literally believed everything Obama and his administration said, and also have family who believed everything Trump and his administration said…fortunately I’m not in either group.

 

So I'll ask again...if you mistrust every official source of information...what data are you using to make your decisions "for the good of myself and my own family?"

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You guys going ad hominem because you don’t want to address the root of the arguments is pathetic.

Joking about Navs is funny is funny if it’s good hearted, you guys are honestly taking it too far and need to stfu. That’s from a fighter pilot, since it matters so much to you guys.

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Dude, going balls deep into the positives and negatives of the vaccine is pissing in the wind at this point. If you eliminate politics and conspiracy theories alone, 69% of the arguments vanish. 
 

Pawnman deserves some shade here. His recent comments reek of careerism and puffing out his chest (dropping articles on people, “the joke’s on you I made APZ”).  I’ve met careerists before that are good people, they simply value rank highly while being good peeps. Thing is, they’re rare. These recent exchanges haven’t been a good look for him. 

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Seems like the joking about Navs is pretty good hearted here.

And what root of which argument is anyone not answering? So far pawnman is just slinging and not answering questions.

Thanks for your virtue signaling negatory. But it doesn’t really matter if you are a fighter pilot or not. But, that’s cool man. Good for you.

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1 hour ago, pawnman said:

So I'll ask again...if you mistrust every official source of information...what data are you using to make your decisions "for the good of myself and my own family?"

You’re missing the point—I don’t think I need the vaccine, based on the data.  My parents thought they did and I supported their decision.  If you think you needed it, awesome—I hope you were able to get it (I imagine you are).

This is the type of data that led me to my decision:

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/494670-ninety-six-percent-of-inmates-in-four-state-prisons-who-tested-positive

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59 minutes ago, Negatory said:

You guys going ad hominem because you don’t want to address the root of the arguments is pathetic.

Joking about Navs is funny is funny if it’s good hearted, you guys are honestly taking it too far and need to stfu. That’s from a fighter pilot, since it matters so much to you guys.

The Nav joke was bc Pawman made the comment to something like  “here’s a pilot who thinks they know more than medical professionals”.  And I couldn’t pass up the opportunity to make a Nav joke when he gave me the opportunity.  
 

As for you being a fighter pilot, that’s cool I guess, but no, it doesn’t matter to me.  But thanks for your service.

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As interesting as this conversation is.. I am neither a fighter pilot nor a nav and I'm curious at what point the quality and quantity of data supporting the efficacy/safety of the covid vaccines could convince you guys to get it.

Is there a benchmark you are looking for it to surpass? A certain number of years without widespread major side effects? A specific number of long term studies that prove its safety? A certain entity whose data you would trust? Would the emergence of a more dangerous covid variant change your calculus?

I'm just wondering, because without a logical, measurable benchmark to evaluate this on it's essentially the same trash argument as the granola munching anti-vax mom crowd...  I'm seeing a lot of similarities "I don't trust anyone, the science was rushed/flawed, the data is doctored" etc..

 

So what data, when, how much, and from whom do you want for it to be good enough?

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4 hours ago, Pooter said:

As interesting as this conversation is.. I am neither a fighter pilot nor a nav and I'm curious at what point the quality and quantity of data supporting the efficacy/safety of the covid vaccines could convince you guys to get it.

Is there a benchmark you are looking for it to surpass? A certain number of years without widespread major side effects? A specific number of long term studies that prove its safety? A certain entity whose data you would trust? Would the emergence of a more dangerous covid variant change your calculus?

I'm just wondering, because without a logical, measurable benchmark to evaluate this on it's essentially the same trash argument as the granola munching anti-vax mom crowd...  I'm seeing a lot of similarities "I don't trust anyone, the science was rushed/flawed, the data is doctored" etc..

 

So what data, when, how much, and from whom do you want for it to be good enough?

They already said the standard. The data has to be strong enough that either the federal government or the manufacturer will accept liability for any short term OR long term side effects of the vaccine. As soon as Phizer says it will pickup payouts to young women that may have fertility issues in 10 years, or young men who may have an increased risk of heart disease in 20 years, I think you'll have a whole bunch of people on board. 

 

As for me, I got the vaccine, mainly because I'm in Europe and I wanted the personal liberty to travel, eat at restaurants, etc... But I totally understand the arguments against getting it. 

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@Pooter What Flea said, plus some multi-year data...what are the effects in 3 years, 5 years, 10 years? Not saying I personally need 10 years of data, but a couple years plus the drug companies being 100% legally liable for negative effects might do it. It’s all about risk calculation; if this virus had a 50% mortality rate, decisions would be very different (e.g. risk of longterm unknowns from the vaccine are overshadowed by the risk of death from the virus). I sincerely hope this specific vaccine, and the tech in general, is wildly successful and proves over time to be a great solution into the future...but I don’t personally feel I, or my family, need to be a part of the experiment to find out.

This is pretty simple logic, but not saying there is one right answer/opinion...except that the right one is whatever is right for you and your family. It is not right to force your opinion/personal risk management answer on others (general statement, not directed at you Pooter).

Edited by brabus
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7 hours ago, FLEA said:

They already said the standard. The data has to be strong enough that either the federal government or the manufacturer will accept liability for any short term OR long term side effects of the vaccine. As soon as Phizer says it will pickup payouts to young women that may have fertility issues in 10 years, or young men who may have an increased risk of heart disease in 20 years, I think you'll have a whole bunch of people on board. 

 

As for me, I got the vaccine, mainly because I'm in Europe and I wanted the personal liberty to travel, eat at restaurants, etc... But I totally understand the arguments against getting it. 

Okay that's something..

But is that ever going to happen in the real world? What other medications do you know of where the manufacturer/government preemptively accept full financial liability for any/all future side effects?

In this hypothetical scenario, how would you even go about proving the vaccine is causal in a medical problem you have 10 or 20 years down the road? And which side effects should be covered? Also are we going to apply this rule to other medications? I'm sure in a country of 300 million I can find five people who died after taking Advil.  


I'm asking these things because if the line in the sand we're drawing is unrealistic, maybe we need to come up with a better one. 
 

For me the calculus is very simple. We don't know the long term effects of the vaccine or covid so there's no point trying to compare two unknown variables. What we do know is the short/medium term effects of both, and even for young healthy people a bad vaccine reaction is orders of magnitude less likely than dying from covid 19. 

Edited by Pooter
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