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Finally done in Afghanistan?


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5 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

With "friends" like these:

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/11/21/merkels-germany-tells-trump-not-to-bring-troops-home-from-afghanistan/

From the article:

Conservative German MP Roderich Kiesewetter said that the United States is “morally obligated” to rebuild the Afghani military and civil society, saying in September: “A hasty and rash withdrawal would only lead to the collapse of social structures and the return of organized violence of all kinds.”

The Germans do not appear to be considering filling the gap left by a potential American withdrawal with their own forces, however.

They have the capability, money but apparently not the will for this mission they claim to care so much for.  Given the size of our footprint and their resources, even modestly growing their armed forces to just cover this mission or make it their focus is feasible.  If NATO is so interested in this, just do it without us.

Add this as one more thing to do POTUS, offer to transfer intel, bases and missions to them to continue the Afghanistan Project, do it publicly and hold their feet to the fire.  The American and European MSM will either bury it or spin it as bullying but who cares at this point.

This is what frustrates me so much having worked with NATO. They realise the US cannot just leave NATO or Europe will pivot support to the CSCE and the US will lose its role in shaping European security, an undesirable outcome. So they milk us for everything we have to secure their own interests. 

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5 hours ago, FLEA said:

This is what frustrates me so much having worked with NATO. They realize the US cannot just leave NATO or Europe will pivot support to the CSCE and the US will lose its role in shaping European security, an undesirable outcome. So they milk us for everything we have to secure their own interests. 

So we have to call the Western Europeans on their bluff, if they wish to kowtow to Russia and trust Iran then that's their choice.  It's Western Europe that's the problem, they put their interests above collective security (and collective economic interests of Europe IMHO) while expecting the status quo to be maintained, just end it.  Whatever comes next will be their problem not ours.

We will still shape security in Central/Eastern Europe as they would participate in separate non-NATO security and economic pacts.  Just my two cents, a new security organization from Finland to Greece encompassing the countries of Central Europe is a better and more manageable security/deterrence plan for Europe for us.  NATO just lacks the outward threat that made it possible to keep it focused, honest and burden at least better shared as during the Cold War; a new security organization with nations truly under threat from Russia, smaller and more culturally cognizant of the actual threats they face is closer that aforementioned more effective version IMHO.

All members actually fear Russia (or Turkey), smaller capabilities and economies so they are more likely to defer to the US so it will be easier to lead and we charter the organization to be singly focused on in area defensive kinetic operations and actively defending against non-kinetic cyber, informational and economic aggressions.  Not holding breath for this to happen as I think the incoming administration likes bigger multilateral organizations, not a swipe at them but a guess.

Edited by Clark Griswold
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On 11/22/2020 at 9:57 AM, FLEA said:

This is what frustrates me so much having worked with NATO. They realise the US cannot just leave NATO or Europe will pivot support to the CSCE and the US will lose its role in shaping European security, an undesirable outcome. So they milk us for everything we have to secure their own interests. 

So you quote a guy that is the political equivalent of the county administrator of Tom Green County ,Texas. out of an Article written by a pizza delivery dude who is pumping out 5 Articles a day for a Online Newspaper owned by a guy who was banned from twitter after writing he wanted to see Anthony Fauci and FBI Director Christopher Wray beheaded in front of the white house,as i quote: "as a warning to bureaucrats"

Ooookay...

Also you're essentially saying you want the NATO to step up and rebuild a house we've blown the roof off over the last decade. Check.

 

Edited by chase
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5 hours ago, chase said:

So you quote a guy that is the political equivalent of the county administrator of Tom Green County ,Texas. out of an Article written by a pizza delivery dude who is pumping out 5 Articles a day for a Online Newspaper owned by a guy who was banned from twitter after writing he wanted to see Anthony Fauci and FBI Director Christopher Wray beheaded in front of the white house,as i quote: "as a warning to bureaucrats"

Ooookay...

Also you're essentially saying you want the NATO to step up and rebuild a house we've blown the roof off over the last decade. Check.

 

1.) I didn't quote anyone. However, the provided quote was endemic to German thought. I've worked closely with the German government in a security cooperation position and the provided thought process does not surprise me. 

 

2.) What roof? You mean the collapsed plywood on the mud hut in September of 2001? Yeah that was like that when we got there. 

Edited by FLEA
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On 11/23/2020 at 5:23 PM, FLEA said:

1.) I didn't quote anyone. However, the provided quote was endemic to German thought. I've worked closely with the German government in a security cooperation position and the provided thought process does not surprise me. 

 

2.) What roof? You mean the collapsed plywood on the mud hut in September of 2001? Yeah that was like that when we got there. 

 

1.)  Wait what? You did highlight that part of the article. Seriously?! But anyway, I've worked in a similar position with the Germans so i have a vague idea on why you see it that way. But I have totally different opinion on that.

2.) Okay, i totally deserve that one for being a smart-ass. :beer:

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1 minute ago, chase said:

1.)  Wait what? You did highlight that part of the article. Seriously?! But anyway, I've worked in a similar position with the Germans so i have a vague idea on why you see it that way. But I have totally different opinion on that.

2.) Okay, i totally deserve that one for being a smart-ass. :beer:

So I guess if you wanted to go full fucking inception, yes, I quoted Clark quoting someone else, and then you quoted me. But who's fucking tracking. 

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1 minute ago, FLEA said:

So I guess if you wanted to go full ing inception, yes, I quoted Clark quoting someone else, and then you quoted me. But who's ing tracking. 

Jesus I'm ing stupid. It was Clark. I guess I'm to old and senile for a damn Message Board. Moving on.

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Jesus I'm ing stupid. It was Clark. I guess I'm to old and senile for a damn Message Board. Moving on.

So you’ve got a background similar to FLEA’s and have an informed opinion from working directly with the Germans (assuming staff/hq experience); myself I only have experience with them at a squadron level (training).

I see no effort on their part commensurate with their resources/capabilities and status as a large beneficiary of the Liberal International Order to rise to the part of actively defending and preserving it

Why do you think they don’t deserve this criticism?


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Interesting that our troop presence in Afghanistan was one of the highlighted examples in this essay.  I mostly like the rest of the ideas, but our effectiveness in South Asia seems ambiguous at best
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-11-23/defense-depth

It sounds good but in reality I suspect it is more of the same from the globalist swamp- sell out your working and middle class by committing to one sided trade deals, deterrence for allies capable but unwilling to put skin in the game and sign on to agreements that others ignore or will never actually meet to win virtue points with the Davos crowd. No thanks.

America First is not America Alone. It is a lot of things but mainly it is non-privileged, screwed over for the last 40 years Americans standing up for their interests in a world of aggressive competitors, fickle allies and remorseless players where the elites of their own country use their future as bargaining chips as they are cajoled and fellated by the conniving elites of other nations, particularly China, to sell them out to the false god of globalism.

Angry rant complete.

As to troops in Afghanistan and the authors of the article to include Mattis, it is face saving at it’s worst. Does anyone with an IQ above 75 think that Afghanistan will be anything different in 10 or 20 years with the mission as proposed continuing to whenever?


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8 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

U.S. is assessing whether Taliban is serious about peace - Blinken http:// https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/talibans-actions-inconsistent-with-pursuit-peace-afghanistan-says-blinken-2021-06-25/

Spoiler alert there buddy: they’re not

 

 

Oh ya we're totally serious this time...so much peace you won't believe it.   On another note, what's the exact day you guys are leaving again?  

 

But seriously, does it matter at this point?  GTFO!   

Edited by SocialD
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1 minute ago, Pancake said:

https://www.airforcemag.com/last-us-troops-leave-bagram-after-nearly-20-years-afghanistan-withdrawal/

Like Mike Waltz, having deployed there several times myself, I have mixed emotions.

God bless all those lost; US, coalition, and Afghan civilians.

 

 

Having deployed there a few times my only emotion is elation.  It was long past due to GTFO and stop spending our national treasure in that place. 

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1 hour ago, SocialD said:

Having deployed there a few times my only emotion is elation.  It was long past due to GTFO and stop spending our national treasure in that place. 

Logically I know you’re right.  But emotionally, after 10 deployments there, I want to stay and smash every enemy forever.  I felt similarly watching the first departure from Balad after 5 trips there.

 Alcohol with bros will be how many of us cope having spent years of our life doing something that sporadically felt necessary but mostly filled me with anger at endless tactical success but no victory.  All while my kids grew up and I stupidly went back.  In the end I chose how to spend my time and have no one to blame for my decisions but me.  However I will never forgive or respect senior leaders who could not win.  Why should any of us believe any of them about the “big shift” and GPC when they’ve lost this one?  

probably time to wear my veteran hat and move into a camper near the base pharmacy…  🥃 🇺🇸⚔️image.jpeg.da291b55ac4ea96faa20cac41836189a.jpeg
 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

Logically I know you’re right.  But emotionally, after 10 deployments there, I want to stay and smash every enemy forever.  I felt similarly watching the first departure from Balad after 5 trips there.

 Alcohol with bros will be how many of us cope having spent years of our life doing something that sporadically felt necessary but mostly filled me with anger at endless tactical success but no victory.  All while my kids grew up and I stupidly went back.  In the end I chose how to spend my time and have no one to blame for my decisions but me.  However I will never forgive or respect senior leaders who could not win.  Why should any of us believe any of them about the “big shift” and GPC when they’ve lost this one?  

probably time to wear my veteran hat and move into a camper near the base pharmacy…  🥃 🇺🇸⚔️
 

I sympathize with that sense of pointlessness.  Having spent so much time flying in AFG in the last past 15 years or so, I understand the feeling.  I've felt that way since the first deployment - there was never any victory in AFG.  Never any end.  What, were we going to turn Afghanistan into Germany?  Less than half of the population can read.  

The things that mattered there were saving our guys on the ground.  Making sure that the bad guys felt the pain and that someone had the backs of our 19-year old kids in the mountains.  But none of that would have been necessary if we just hadn't been there.  No TICs to cover, no overwatch needed.

I'm angry with the leadership who always said we were "turning the corner."  Have you seen those media compilations where they have quotes from Generals over like a 20-year time span?  Literal identical quotes..."We're turning the corner, the Afghans are really showing promise, etc."  For 20 years.  Always the same, because who gets promoted if they say to their boss "this task is impossible."  I don't blame them for not winning - I blame them for not saying we couldn't win.

I'm glad we're gone.  I'm not naive about what AFG will become when we leave again.  But it's been that way for centuries.  The loss of American and NATO life in AFG in unforgivable.  The insane financial waste (the SIGAR reports will make your eyes water) is incredible.  Good riddance.

 

 

 

Edited by Number 2
Grammur
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Thoughts as to the scenario that will play out over the next 6-9 months?  And our response?  I saw on the news they were deploying Buffs to the Deid for the final "pullout" ?  For what purpose?

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1 hour ago, slc said:

Thoughts as to the scenario that will play out over the next 6-9 months?  And our response?  I saw on the news they were deploying Buffs to the Deid for the final "pullout" ?  For what purpose?

Just keep a bare bones HUMINT structure on the ground, bomb a training camp into mist every 6-9 months.

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9 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

Multiplying by Zero was published in 2011, and it’s still the best summary of the futility of AFG ops.
http:// https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/military-review/Archives/English/MilitaryReview_20110228_art014.pdf

And ten years later, what the article said has finally dawned on the "elites".  FFS. 

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24 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Just keep a bare bones HUMINT structure on the ground, bomb a training camp into mist every 6-9 months.

Surprisingly hard when you’re perceived as having sold out & abandoned your allies.  Not saying I disagree at all (I don’t).  Just saying we’ve made that obvious COA pretty tough on ourselves by encouraging an unrealistic narrative to GIRoA.  

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Surprisingly hard when you’re perceived as having sold out & abandoned your allies.  Not saying I disagree at all (I don’t).  Just saying we’ve made that obvious COA pretty tough on ourselves by encouraging an unrealistic narrative to GIRoA.  

That difficulty is a good case for just be totally gone.
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8 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Surprisingly hard when you’re perceived as having sold out & abandoned your allies.  

I never considered the govt of Afghanistan our "allies". 
AMF's. 

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